Spiritual growth as evidence of salvation?

[Gordon Wright]

Given that Christians are sinners, there arises the question of how we know someone is really a Christian, or, for that matter, how do I know that I myself am truly following the true God, and not one of the many counterfeits.

The Bible says that we are given the Holy Spirit. How do we know we have the Holy Spirit? There are many spirits, but only one Holy Spirit.

Here's how i see it: the Holy Spirit helps us to grow. It's not where we are; it's what direction we're moving. Observe a person over time. Is he becoming gradually more righteous, more courageous in faith, more compassionate, more generous, more rational, more humble before God? Or is he heading in the opposite direction?

What of those who don't seem to be growing at all? Those who are stuck in a rut?

Don't misconstrue me. I'm not talking about passing judgment on other people. I'm talking about judgement in a different sense - making judgement calls. I'm talking about deciding whom to trust, whom to submit to, whom to work with. The point is to avoid becoming unequally yoked. Only God knows for a fact who is saved, but sometimes as a practical matter we need to make an educated guess to manage the risks.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

What about growing beyond religion?

 

[sarah_beloved]

Here's how i see it: the Holy Spirit helps us to grow. It's not where we are; it's what direction we're moving. Observe a person over time. Is he becoming gradually more righteous, more courageous in faith, more compassionate, more generous, more rational, more humble before God? Or is he heading in the opposite direction?

Agree on this. I personally believe that no one who has Christ in him can remain completely the same. It's just not possible. I'm not saying that we have to be transformed into Mother Theresa overnight, but there has to be something.

I've met self-professing Christians who would curse rape or car accidents onto someone else. It's scary

 

[RDKirk]

What about growing beyond religion?

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. -- James 1

 

[KCfromNC]

What about growing beyond religion?

Yep. Typically when we describe growth there's a way to measure it. Kids gain weight and get taller, college students have tests and projects to see that they've learned things at the end of class, athletes have their performance tracked using numbers. How are we supposed to measure spiritual growth - what does that even mean?

 

[RDKirk]

Agree on this. I personally believe that no one who has Christ in him can remain completely the same. It's just not possible. I'm not saying that we have to be transformed into Mother Theresa overnight, but there has to be something.

I've met self-professing Christians who would curse rape or car accidents onto someone else. It's scary

This is the point of James' letter. James isn't trying to describe the spiritual mechanism of becoming saved. That's not his point. Throughout his letter, James is talking continuously about what a person who is saved ought to act like. Even in James' time, there were Gnostics who put salvation totally on a spiritual plane and claimed that faith need not manifest itself in any material way. James' response to that was, paraphrased, "What you're calling 'faith' is what I'd call 'dead.'"

This does not mean, however, that the casual observer would necessarily see what faith has done in a man. We might not see that he had been secretly addicted to porn or drugs and is now free. We may not see that he'd long held a hatred of someone and was now free of it.

But the idea is that if a person has been saved and thus has the "full measure of faith," that faith will compel him to emulate Jesus as best he can and leave him frustrated to some extent when he cannot. If a person does not feel compulsion--or even denies it--well, that creates a question.

And at some point, the person's behavior away from emulation of Jesus may need a public reckoning within the Body of Christ.

When I was 17, in the church I'd been raised in, one of the elders was discovered in flagrante delicto with a 12-year-old boy. That is naked and in bed, caught by his wife. The congregation's response was: "We cannot judge," and the man retained his eldership in the congregation.

Even as a 17-year-old (maybe especially as a 17-year-old) I knew that was a wrong response. This was the same congregation telling me that doing the Shing-a-ling and listening to the Temptations was evil. I hadn't even yet read:

But those who persist in sin should be rebuked in front of everyone, so that the others will stand in fear of sin. -- 1 Timothy 5

Not to mention:

But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer who is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or verbally abusive, a drunkard or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person.

For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Don’t you judge those who are inside? But God judges outsiders. Put away the evil person from among yourselves. -- 1 Corinthians 5

At the point that a person's activities are causing damage to the Body of Christ, it does need to be reckoned with.

 

[Mustaphile]

Given that Christians are sinners, there arises the question of how we know someone is really a Christian, or, for that matter, how do I know that I myself am truly following the true God, and not one of the many counterfeits.

The Bible says that we are given the Holy Spirit. How do we know we have the Holy Spirit? There are many spirits, but only one Holy Spirit.

Here's how i see it: the Holy Spirit helps us to grow. It's not where we are; it's what direction we're moving. Observe a person over time. Is he becoming gradually more righteous, more courageous in faith, more compassionate, more generous, more rational, more humble before God? Or is he heading in the opposite direction?

What of those who don't seem to be growing at all? Those who are stuck in a rut?

Don't misconstrue me. I'm not talking about passing judgment on other people. I'm talking about judgement in a different sense - making judgement calls. I'm talking about deciding whom to trust, whom to submit to, whom to work with. The point is to avoid becoming unequally yoked. Only God knows for a fact who is saved, but sometimes as a practical matter we need to make an educated guess to manage the risks.

You don't know. That's the simple answer.

When I read your question I see a lot of words attempting to weasel out of the fact that you are seeking to make a judgement on someone despite declarations of non-judgement. Now I could be wrong, but even if I am, it still looks that way.

When you ask the questions whom to trust, submit to and work for, the answer is simple too. You trust God, submit to God and work for God. Now in saying it is simple, that doesn't mean it's easy. It's actually quite hard to not judge. It's hard to forgive. It's hard to be patient. Submitting to the idea of letting God be the judge of all things is difficult.

Try living this way. Assume everyone is favored by God. Look for the good in everyone. Look behind people's fears and see that however misguided they may seem, they actually care. Be like Christ. Listen to the peoples hopes and fears. Discern the hearts of people through loving every aspect of them. That is deep understanding and wisdom.

There is only one God. There are no 'false gods'. Only false conceptions of the one God. All who seek after God, whatever their conception of God might be, are seeking the one God. God is huge, infinite in fact, so it matters little which direction you strike out in. You will find him everywhere you seek. The most important place to look for him however is directly inside you. That is where God lives in everyone and through everyone.

 

[Gordon Wright]

Y
When you ask the questions whom to trust, submit to and work for, the answer is simple too. You trust God, submit to God and work for God. .

Work with, not for. I'm talking about church life, broadly speaking. If solo Christianity were Biblical, I could just follow God and leave it at that, forumulating no hypotheses about my fellow humans. But that's not really an option.

 

[fhansen]

“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? Matt 7:16

 

[RDKirk]

Work with, not for. I'm talking about church life, broadly speaking. If solo Christianity were Biblical, I could just follow God and leave it at that, forumulating no hypotheses about my fellow humans. But that's not really an option.

This needed to be repeated. Matthew 18:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 5 apply because we are not hermits.

 

[Noxot]

the human brain trys to separate things into parts but something as complex as the spiritual growth and development of a person is something vastly beyond my comprehension. obviously I will tend to avoid certain types of souls.

'you will know them by their fruits', but sir i'm sorry to say, a soul is an entire world and I, being in a strange environment such as a jungle, see very many different things and yet I know not why all are as they are. yes, I am pleased if I find something good to eat and I am pleased to find bad fruits or a bad plant, so as to avoid and not harm myself, but even the silverleaf nightshade plant has it's various uses for humanity.

many people think little of the dandelion, but it is a wonderful plant! why then, do so many humans try to kill them off? you may weep and cry over the rotted-out palm tree, but inside of it are giant grubs that provide you with 3X the protein as beef does (per gram).

now obviously if this environment of a persons soul is terrible then I shall leave this place for I am not in the business of torturing myself. but if there is any good therein, I shall rejoice and the Lord shall persevere such, for he desires all the good to live and he stores and preserves them in heaven.

Rom 12:18 (YLT)
If possible--so far as in you--with all men being in peace;

and cursed are the ones who call good evil and evil good!

 

[Noxot]

Yep. Typically when we describe growth there's a way to measure it. Kids gain weight and get taller, college students have tests and projects to see that they've learned things at the end of class, athletes have their performance tracked using numbers. How are we supposed to measure spiritual growth - what does that even mean?

since it is before thought then it has little to do with belief structures compared to what you are about and how you are. but beliefs do matter as they will tend to move you in certain possible directions. spiritual life is all higher life, anything and everything that is truly "good". the nature of love and goodness is such that it would make the best of the world that we are in. inferior systems in the world are due to the lack of the kingdom of God, aka the Holy Spirit. the Love of God, the Trinity, is the primordial reality which is why that the nearer that you are to such the better off you would be.

 

[razzelflabben]

Given that Christians are sinners, there arises the question of how we know someone is really a Christian, or, for that matter, how do I know that I myself am truly following the true God, and not one of the many counterfeits.

The Bible says that we are given the Holy Spirit. How do we know we have the Holy Spirit? There are many spirits, but only one Holy Spirit.

Here's how i see it: the Holy Spirit helps us to grow. It's not where we are; it's what direction we're moving. Observe a person over time. Is he becoming gradually more righteous, more courageous in faith, more compassionate, more generous, more rational, more humble before God? Or is he heading in the opposite direction?

What of those who don't seem to be growing at all? Those who are stuck in a rut?

Don't misconstrue me. I'm not talking about passing judgment on other people. I'm talking about judgement in a different sense - making judgement calls. I'm talking about deciding whom to trust, whom to submit to, whom to work with. The point is to avoid becoming unequally yoked. Only God knows for a fact who is saved, but sometimes as a practical matter we need to make an educated guess to manage the risks.

amen...I would also add to this Galatians 5:22-23 in growing degree, since this is the fruit of the spirit, we should see these things in growing degree in our lives and also don't forget John 13:35 which is a bit of a repeat but a very important part of how we know for sure that one is a brother or sister in Christ. Without these evidences, the best we can do is hope and pray and trust God to finish the work HE has begun in our lives as well as those that we are observing. That being said, those people who live in these fruits, are people whose salvation is never in my mind questioned because these things are not able to be counterfeited to the degree that the believer is given them.

 

[razzelflabben]

You don't know. That's the simple answer.

When I read your question I see a lot of words attempting to weasel out of the fact that you are seeking to make a judgement on someone despite declarations of non-judgement. Now I could be wrong, but even if I am, it still looks that way.

When you ask the questions whom to trust, submit to and work for, the answer is simple too. You trust God, submit to God and work for God. Now in saying it is simple, that doesn't mean it's easy. It's actually quite hard to not judge. It's hard to forgive. It's hard to be patient. Submitting to the idea of letting God be the judge of all things is difficult.

Try living this way. Assume everyone is favored by God. Look for the good in everyone. Look behind people's fears and see that however misguided they may seem, they actually care. Be like Christ. Listen to the peoples hopes and fears. Discern the hearts of people through loving every aspect of them. That is deep understanding and wisdom.

There is only one God. There are no 'false gods'. Only false conceptions of the one God. All who seek after God, whatever their conception of God might be, are seeking the one God. God is huge, infinite in fact, so it matters little which direction you strike out in. You will find him everywhere you seek. The most important place to look for him however is directly inside you. That is where God lives in everyone and through everyone.

Two things, 1. I read in the OP the need to examine our own lives by the HS criteria, that is not to judge ourselves but to examine ourselves with humble judgment. Maybe the OPer can clarify, but as I read it, it was both for self reflection and discernment of others. Which brings me to 2. you talk about discernment, which is a form of "judgment" or measure as it were. As I understand the OPer that is all he is referring to, the discernment that we are told to have in scripture. Unfortunately many people don't use the word discernment or use it incorrectly.

 

[KCfromNC]

since it is before thought then it has little to do with belief structures compared to what you are about and how you are. but beliefs do matter as they will tend to move you in certain possible directions. spiritual life is all higher life, anything and everything that is truly "good".

Such as rejecting the need for self? Ignoring petty distractions such as gods and focusing on real spiritual growth? Learning that religion is just a passing phase on the way to true spirituality. I hear lots of opinions on what the right path is but none of them seem to agree with each other.

 

[fhansen]

the human brain trys to separate things into parts but something as complex as the spiritual growth and development of a person is something vastly beyond my comprehension. obviously I will tend to avoid certain types of souls.

'you will know them by their fruits', but sir i'm sorry to say, a soul is an entire world and I, being in a strange environment such as a jungle, see very many different things and yet I know not why all are as they are. yes, I am pleased if I find something good to eat and I am pleased to find bad fruits or a bad plant, so as to avoid and not harm myself, but even the silverleaf nightshade plant has it's various uses for humanity.

many people think little of the dandelion, but it is a wonderful plant! why then, do so many humans try to kill them off? you may weep and cry over the rotted-out palm tree, but inside of it are giant grubs that provide you with 3X the protein as beef does (per gram).

now obviously if this environment of a persons soul is terrible then I shall leave this place for I am not in the business of torturing myself. but if there is any good therein, I shall rejoice and the Lord shall persevere such, for he desires all the good to live and he stores and preserves them in heaven.

Rom 12:18 (YLT)
If possible--so far as in you--with all men being in peace;

and cursed are the ones who call good evil and evil good!

Yes, well in any case we know them by their fruits because we know good and we know evil when we see them-which is why Isaiah 5:20 is true.

 

[Noxot]

Such as rejecting the need for self? Ignoring petty distractions such as gods and focusing on real spiritual growth? Learning that religion is just a passing phase on the way to true spirituality. I hear lots of opinions on what the right path is but none of them seem to agree with each other.

at first the visible universe was a seed and now there are many stars and planets and galaxies and all sorts of stuff.

Rev 2:17 (YLT)
He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: To him who is overcoming, I will give to him to eat from the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, that no one knew except him who is receiving it .

Rev 3:12 (YLT)
He who is overcoming--I will make him a pillar in the sanctuary of my God, and without he may not go any more, and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, that doth come down out of the heaven from my God--also my new name.

Yes, well in any case we know them by their fruits because we know good and we know evil when we see them-which is why Isaiah 5:20 is true.

yeah we learn about them and ourselves all the time. and this is what God does to the evil in us when we are willing:

Isa 5:25 (YLT)
Therefore hath the anger of Jehovah burned among His people, And He stretcheth out His hand against it, And smiteth it, and the mountains tremble, And their carcase is as filth in the midst of the out-places. With all this His anger did not turn back, And still His hand is stretched out!

it also speaks of the corrupted soul and how it perceives God and how his own inner man can become. this very much looks like a picture of the crucified Christ.

 

[fhansen]

Such as rejecting the need for self? Ignoring petty distractions such as gods and focusing on real spiritual growth? Learning that religion is just a passing phase on the way to true spirituality. I hear lots of opinions on what the right path is but none of them seem to agree with each other.

Neither agreement or disagreement make any one particular belief system true-or false. What is "true spirituality" in your opinion?

 

[KCfromNC]

What is "true spirituality" in your opinion?

A category error.

 

[fhansen]

A category error.

I see; religion is a passing phase on the way to a "category error" then. Clears that question up.