(Almost) Answering the Problem of Evil

[Locutus]

One view is that evil is temporarily permitted until the issues which emerged in Eden are resolved to the fullest measure. Once that happens then the temporary permission of evil will have served its purpose and evil will be totally eradicated. If it does re-emerge among mankind it will be immediately removed because allowing its existence will no longer serve the original purpose.

what are these issues which emerged in the garden of eden which demand thousands of years of evil to resolve?

and how does allowing evil 'fix' anything, if the god is just going to arbitrarily eradicate it at some arbitrary point? if the god is capable of 'immediately removing' evil, what's the point in allowing it? we're not learning anything from it if it can be removed entirely with no help from us. what is this mysterious original purpose, if not to teach us something?

 

[Radrook]

what are these issues which emerged in the garden of eden which demand thousands of years of evil to resolve?

and how does allowing evil 'fix' anything, if the god is just going to arbitrarily eradicate it at some arbitrary point? if the god is capable of 'immediately removing' evil, what's the point in allowing it? we're not learning anything from it if it can be removed entirely with no help from us. what is this mysterious original purpose, if not to teach us something?

Here is how it was explained to me:

Edenic Satanic Accusations

Mankind and all other creatures made in God's image can do better alone by choosing what is evil or good for themselves. God only reserves that right for himself because he is selfish and not because lack of his guidance would harm his creatures.

God is a liar when he tells us that we die if we sin.

Satan, could do a far better job than God because his views of total freedom from God's rule is best.
-----------------------------------

God's Decision:

God's Decision was to allow the challenge to proceed. True, he could have destroyed the rebels immediately. However, destroying Satan and the human rebels would only have proven superior power and left the issue unresolved before all observers. So time is being allowed for mankind to reach the zenith of its scientific progress in order to conclusively show that the claim is entirely bogus. That avoids the accusation that God selfishly and cunningly truncated mankind's efforts just as they were beginning to get things right or perhaps even on the verge of proving that they too could attain immortality without God and thus proving Satan right and God wrong. Once this issue is settled and a legal precedent is be established, then any other rebellions can be immediately terminated whenever or wherever it arises.

-----------------------------------------------------

Satanic Accusation #2

A perfected mankind would only serve God if God provided abundant blessings. Otherwise humans would abandon him and curse him to his face. Evidence? Adam and Eve's rebellion over a small deprivation was all that was needed. A rebuttal was provided in Jesus who blessed God and remained faithful despite all the tribulation he suffered
The issue illustrated in the book of Job where Satan question's the sincerity of Job's devotion by tagging it as selfish. Job also provide a rebuttal by showing that even imperfect fallen man is capable of maintaining integrity under extremely harsh conditions and that devotion to God need not be based on selfishness.

So time is also allowed for these rebuttals from God's creatures made in his image to be provided in abundance so that the issue is settled beyond any doubt.

Once these are settled then the end will come.


Why God Permits Evil
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201012/god-get-rid-of-devil/

 

[Radrook]

Of course you're to blame if your children don't obey you. You made them, and you taught them, and you set up the conditions in which they would 'fail'.

I would not do such a thing.
Instead, I would give them a task which is very easy to do so they could easily show that they respect me as their father and not one far beyond their abilities.

 

[Locutus]

I would not do such a thing.
Instead, I would give them a task which is very easy to do so they could easily show that they respect me as their father and not one far beyond their abilities.

What such a thing would you not do?

Children can't learn respect if it's not first modelled by you. A parent who doesn't first respect their children, doesn't deserve any respect. Respect begets respect, fear doesn't.

 

[Locutus]

Here is how it was explained to me:

Edenic Satanic Accusations

Mankind and all other creatures made in God's image can do better alone by choosing what is evil or good for themselves. God only reserves that right for himself because he is selfish and not because lack of his guidance would harm his creatures.

God is a liar when he tells us that we die if we sin.

Satan, could do a far better job than God because his views of total freedom from God's rule is best.
-----------------------------------

God's Decision:

God's Decision was to allow the challenge to proceed. True, he could have destroyed the rebels immediately. However, destroying Satan and the human rebels would only have proven superior power and left the issue unresolved before all observers. So time is being allowed for mankind to reach the zenith of its scientific progress in order to conclusively show that the claim is entirely bogus. That avoids the accusation that God selfishly and cunningly truncated mankind's efforts just as they were beginning to get things right or perhaps even on the verge of proving that they too could attain immortality without God and thus proving Satan right and God wrong. Once this issue is settled and a legal precedent is be established, then any other rebellions can be immediately terminated whenever or wherever it arises.

-----------------------------------------------------

Satanic Accusation #2

A perfected mankind would only serve God if God provided abundant blessings. Otherwise humans would abandon him and curse him to his face. Evidence? Adam and Eve's rebellion over a small deprivation was all that was needed. A rebuttal was provided in Jesus who blessed God and remained faithful despite all the tribulation he suffered
The issue illustrated in the book of Job where Satan question's the sincerity of Job's devotion by tagging it as selfish. Job also provide a rebuttal by showing that even imperfect fallen man is capable of maintaining integrity under extremely harsh conditions and that devotion to God need not be based on selfishness.

So time is also allowed for these rebuttals from God's creatures made in his image to be provided in abundance so that the issue is settled beyond any doubt.

Once these are settled then the end will come.


Why God Permits Evil
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201012/god-get-rid-of-devil/

As you will have noted in another thread, free will and an Omni-everything god cannot coexist. It especially cannot coexist when the Omni-everything creator deity also planned everything that would happen. In light of this, you will need to do better than the above.

 

[Radrook]

As you will have noted in another thread, free will and an Omni-everything god cannot coexist. It especially cannot coexist when the Omni-everything creator deity also planned everything that would happen. In light of this, you will need to do better than the above.

I think that we hold different views on the nature of the entity involved.

 

[Locutus]

I think that we hold different views on the nature of the entity involved.

These aren't my views on the entity. I'm guided by the claims made by believers.

 

[Radrook]

These aren't my views on the entity. I'm guided by the claims made by believers.

Yes, I am aware that many believers in an ID see him more or less as you describe in terms of power, wisdom, love and justice. However, I know of millions of Christians who do not believe that God planned for Adam and Eve to sin or Satan to rebel. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses don't hold that view.

 

[Locutus]

Yes, I am aware that many believers in an ID see him more or less as you describe in terms of power, wisdom, love and justice. However, I know of millions of Christians who do not believe that God planned for Adam and Eve to sin or Satan to rebel. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses don't hold that view.

Fair enough.

I guess I can only speak to that which I've experienced. And that, as mentioned, has been overwhelming assertion that the god is Omni-everything, and planned everything.

 

[Radrook]

Fair enough.

I guess I can only speak to that which I've experienced. And that, as mentioned, has been overwhelming assertion that the god is Omni-everything, and planned everything.

That requires that God be a scheming accomplice in the downfall of mankind. Such a view contradicts what we are told about the creator in the Bible. Views that set up paradoxical contradictions indicate that they aren't the right interpretations.

Also, can you direct me to a statement made by a Christian denomination where it claims that God planned Adam and Eve's downfall in cooperation with Satan?

 

[Locutus]

That requires that God be a scheming accomplice in the downfall of mankind. Such a view contradicts what we are told about the creator in the Bible. Views that set up paradoxical contradictions indicate that they aren't the right interpretations.

Also, can you direct me to a statement made by a Christian denomination where it claims that God planned Adam and Eve's downfall in cooperation with Satan?

Indeed. And, indeed. But I'll disagree it's a matter of interpretation. Scheming of the magnitude involved is hardly likely to be simply a matter of interpretation. Further, dependence on that idea is morally worrying.

Few Christians, if any (that I've come across) have stopped to think through the implications of "god planned everything". In fact they appear to think no further than that statement. They're highly unlikely, therefore, to have ever considered the Adam/Eve question.

Please remember, I'm working on the assertions made by believers in this regard, not my own interpretation of the situation. If believers assert the that god planned everything, before he began creating (and many do assert that the plan came before the creation), then he must necessarily be responsible for every single thing which has happened, including Adam & Eve & Satan.

 

[Radrook]

Indeed. And, indeed. But I'll disagree it's a matter of interpretation. Scheming of the magnitude involved is hardly likely to be simply a matter of interpretation. Further, dependence on that idea is morally worrying.

Few Christians, if any (that I've come across) have stopped to think through the implications of "god planned everything". In fact they appear to think no further than that statement. They're highly unlikely, therefore, to have ever considered the Adam/Eve question.

Please remember, I'm working on the assertions made by believers in this regard, not my own interpretation of the situation. If believers assert the that god planned everything, before he began creating (and many do assert that the plan came before the creation), then he must necessarily be responsible for every single thing which has happened, including Adam & Eve & Satan.

But exactly what denomination is making this claim?

 

[durangodawood]

You could just say the some so called "evil" things are in fact good when viewed from an omniscient POV.

That would solve the problem of evil, right?

 

[Locutus]

But exactly what denomination is making this claim?

various. why?

 

[Locutus]

You could just say the some so called "evil" things are in fact good when viewed from an omniscient POV.

That would solve the problem of evil, right?

You could, but then where does that leave us? We can only work with what we have, not what might be - outside of time and space.

 

[durangodawood]

You could, but then where does that leave us? We can only work with what we have, not what might be - outside of time and space.

But the problem of evil is specifically about a proposed God.
So the problem itself has a dimension beyond time and space.

 

[Moral Orel]

Mankind and all other creatures made in God's image can do better alone by choosing what is evil or good for themselves.

Isn't this why God had to intervene at the Tower of Babel? Because "nothing will be impossible for them"? God's words, not mine.

 

[Locutus]

But the problem of evil is specifically about a proposed God.
So the problem itself has a dimension beyond time and space.

Only if you need to justify evil

 

[quatona]

That requires that God be a scheming accomplice in the downfall of mankind. Such a view contradicts what we are told about the creator in the Bible. Views that set up paradoxical contradictions indicate that they aren't the right interpretations.

Yep.
There just remains the question which of the assumptions that contradict each other is kept and which one is dismissed. (For completeness´ sake: Even both could be wrong.)

 

[quatona]

You could just say the some so called "evil" things are in fact good when viewed from an omniscient POV.

We can make a lot of claims about how and what things are from an omniscient POV.
Seeing how nobody posting here is omniscient, I find making such claims a very dubious exercise.

That would solve the problem of evil, right?

Not if God himself calls them "evil".