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How many creationist here think that atheism and evolution go together?

In situ

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Actually that's a basic doctrine we hold dearly.

Perhaps, but everyone knows that such doctrine isn't completely right. Not even the majority of Christians will accept such doctrine, for reason I already stated. It is only a small minority that make such claims.

The Bible says it, that settles it.

I never have had the feeling you are using that as an argument you actually believe in yourself. I have the feeling you just say that because it is fun - and because your doctrine allows you to.

You can consider that an "immature childish way," but if you want to see how "adult" it can become, go to countries where just holding a Bible can get you killed and see how "childish" that is.

This is true, but your comparision is absurd. But if your message is; be nice, then point taken. Sometimes I slip, but I am not perfect either.

And if it's so "immature and childish" to believe It, why all the hullabaloo over It being in our schools?

lol, touche! I give you one point for that.

Not to mention just one page of It ... one page ... summarized and placed on our courthouse lawns.

I am not an American but even I know the the reason why...
 
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AV1611VET

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I dunno, you are the exptert on Jesus, you tell me.
Employ basic physics and you tell me.

And I'll simplify the question for you:

Should Jesus have sunk?
 
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AV1611VET

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I never have had the feeling you are using that as an argument you actually believe in yourself. I have the feeling you just say that because it is fun - and because your doctrine allows you to.
Why then do I call it my Prime Directive?

QV please: 834
 
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In situ

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Why then do I call it my Prime Directive?

QV please: 834

Then you prime directive is putting words before God. You do not worship God, but words in a book, because the words in that book is clearly more holy to you than God is. (In other words you know the doctrine is wrong).
 
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In situ

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And if it's so "immature and childish" to believe It, why all the hullabaloo over It being in our schools?

I still feel a little bit disturbed by this comment and I want to address it to get peace in my mind.

What you did here is unfair AV. My comment about being childish was not addressed against the belief itself, but the format of the argument. I thought that was clear. I do not know if you misinterpreted my intention or you just wrote that in order to be able to make a cheap joke. In either case an underlying accusation is there and I want to make fully clear that in no way was it my intent to ridicule a belief - but the way you formulated yourself implies this is the case.

If somebody took my criticism as ridicule of beliefs, then I apologize, that was not my intention. Still I should be able to demand that a discussion is hold at a certain intellectual level acceptable for both parties - in particular when the format of the forum rules explicitly also says that this form of argumentation is not at an acceptable level. I then feel I am in my full right to point this out, this without having to fear to be accused of ridiculing peoples beliefs.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Darwinian Evolution is baseless without a good theory of Abiogenesis, which it does not have.

I'm sorry but no. We can still bake a cake without understanding how wheat came to be. We can still build a car without understanding the origin of iron. Evolution is only an explanation of what happens to life:

1. When it exists.
2. When it reproduces.
and
3. When it has genetic material to pass along imperfectly to offspring.

Before that point is not addressed by the theory of evolution.

That said, let me ask you a question that not many give a straight answer to. How would any of the following sources for the origin of life on earth effect evolution?

- Abiogenesis
- Panspermia
- Fiat creation by God
- Hyper-dimensional high schoolers doing a class experiment
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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That's how science works, kid.

I realize I'm 14 pages behind, but I hope some of our resident scientists weigh in...

Think about it, if you build a house on sand the house crumbles.

We're not building a house though. We're explaining an observed phenomenon.

Without a strong foundation the theory falls apart.

The foundation of evolutionary theory, such as it is, is the observation that life reproduces imperfectly that changes in offspring can lead to major changes in population over time. Period.

And what evolution are you talking about? And I don't want to hear Comparative Anatomy as evidence for Evolution.

Are you referring to anatomical homologies?
 
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AV1611VET

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Then you prime directive is putting words before God. You do not worship God, but words in a book, because the words in that book is clearly more holy to you than God is.
Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Enough said.
In situ said:
(In other words you know the doctrine is wrong).
Shall I just consider the source with this remark?
 
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AV1611VET

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I still feel a little bit disturbed by this comment and I want to address it to get peace in my mind.

What you did here is unfair AV. My comment about being childish was not addressed against the belief itself, but the format of the argument. I thought that was clear. I do not know if you misinterpreted my intention or you just wrote that in order to be able to make a cheap joke. In either case an underlying accusation is there and I want to make fully clear that in no way was it my intent to ridicule a belief - but the way you formulated yourself implies this is the case.

If somebody took my criticism as ridicule of beliefs, then I apologize, that was not my intention. Still I should be able to demand that a discussion is hold at a certain intellectual level acceptable for both parties - in particular when the format of the forum rules explicitly also says that this form of argumentation is not at an acceptable level. I then feel I am in my full right to point this out, this without having to fear to be accused of ridiculing peoples beliefs.
I'll tell you what, chief.

Why don't you and I just stop talking to each other?

In other words, let's quit while we're still ahead.

Else I'll report you.
 
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Extraneous

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Then you prime directive is putting words before God. You do not worship God, but words in a book, because the words in that book is clearly more holy to you than God is. (In other words you know the doctrine is wrong).

Psalm 1 and 119, proverbs 4, John 14, Revelation 1:3, and Mathew 7, would disagree with you,
 
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joshua 1 9

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I realize that, however quoting someone does not imply the quote is valid as evidence. The violation of the validity can come in different variants. One variant is that one tries to extend the meaning of a quote beyond the original meaning. A second variant is that the quote appears to support a claim, but in broader context it does not. This is know as quote mining. A third, and I already mentioned this, the quoted claim may be of controversial nature, in other word it is not an established fact.

I do not think you been quote mining, however I think your quote falls into the category of the third (and possible the first) type of violation. This means you cannot use the quote to support your claim, unless you can show it does not violate any of the principles of being valid. So for instance can you given an example of two text books in genetics with a teen years difference in where the knowledge in one textbook is radical different than the other textbook?

For example. I have a counter example. For instance the 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition of Benjamin Lewis textbook Genes, has been used at university as textbook in genetics. It has the editions printed 1983, 1985 and 1987. That is span of 4 years, and yes while things been added the content has not changed radically in any sense.

You may say that this is not 10 years. True, but this is why I also have another example; Genetics - A molecular approach written by T.A. Brown. This book very much treat the same subject as Lewis book, and has also been used in the same way as Lewis Genes. Again there is 3 editions and the print years are 1990, 1992, 1998. These edition spans 8 years, and again while things been added the general content has not changed.

Now Lewis and Brown are two textbook used in the same classes with an 11 years difference. That should do. If Collins is right and I compare Lewis' 3rd edition from 1987 with Brown's 3rd edition from 1998 I should be reading two fundamental different books, shouldn't I?

But I don't.... the content is in principle the same, except for that Brown have includes research done since after 1987. This is only to be expected, Lewis couldn't possible have added knowledge from the future in his 1987 textbook, right?

This is why I think your claim, not Collins, is wrong (I still do not know why Collins said what he said). But I don't think we seen a "revolution" in our knowledge and understanding even for the past 100 years - only a slow increasing body of knowledge, standing on all previous knowledge, which grows every year, forcing textbook authors to regularly update academic textbooks to stay in touch with the latest research.
Again the Bible has not changed in 3500 years. What was true 3500 years ago is still true today.
 
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joshua 1 9

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The Bible says it, that settles it.
Yes I agree 100% but what process did you have to go through in your growth as a Christian to arrive at this conclusion?
 
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joshua 1 9

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Then you prime directive is putting words before God. You do not worship God, but words in a book, because the words in that book is clearly more holy to you than God is. (In other words you know the doctrine is wrong).
You really need to read the Book of John. You are clearly commenting on something you have not looked into or studied. Jesus is the Word of God. As John tells us: "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." I have read the Bible many times and I have trouble understanding this so I can understand your confusion.

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.…" Phil2:5
 
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bhsmte

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Correct. The gospels alone, had several verses added to it, hundreds of years after the oldest versions we have available.

This, is common knowledge among those, who actually spend any time, studying the work of scholars.
 
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PsychoSarah

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That's how science works, kid.

Think about it, if you build a house on sand the house crumbles. Without a strong foundation the theory falls apart. This is common sense which in itself is a glaringly obvious contradiction to Darwinian Evolution. And what evolution are you talking about? And I don't want to hear Comparative Anatomy as evidence for Evolution.
How about the unnecessary degree to which nonfunctioning DNA sequences are shared between species? Not only is there no benefit to this if you assume species were created as they are (or close to, for those that push microevolution as if it is possible for it to occur without macroevolution happening), but that type of pattern can't happen by accident so consistently. So, either evolution, or the "creator" made it look like evolution is valid with no actual purpose beyond maybe fooling people. Unless you honestly think the devil can mess with DNA.
 
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