How many creationist here think that atheism and evolution go together?

[ScottA]

Translation: I am not trying to convince anyone, but myself.

Do you see the problem with that approach?

There is no problem...but there is an indication of the nature of the matter. Did you consider that?

 

[In situ]

I really don't know how to make this much clearer, than I already have.

I found out why I did not understood you. It was your use of the word 'evidenced' that confused me. I never seen the word 'evidence' be used in this way before. So I did not understand it should be read as "well established facts" but I read it as "well fact facts", which did not make sense to me.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Translation: I am not trying to convince anyone, but myself.

Do you see the problem with that approach?

Because your translation is wrong. Atheists are very militant to defend their lack of a belief in God. It is better just to let them be. God has called us to peace. IF someone wants to know the truth I will do all I can to help them. If they do not want to know the truth then we are to leave them alone. "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet."

 

[In situ]

There is no problem...but there is an indication of the nature of the matter. Did you consider that?

Edit: thought it was Joshua that replied - so removed the comment.

 

[bhsmte]

That is not true at all, true science does NOT contradict the Bible. IF there is a contradiction then it is because someone does not understand science or they do not understand the Bible. God gives us Science and God gives us the Bible so He can not contradict Himself. He is the one that creates wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Of course there are counterfeits and forgeries, there always is and we need to properly discern the word of truth.

3718 // oryotomew // orthotomeo // or-thot-om-eh'-o //

from a compound of 3717 and the base of 5114 ; TDNT - 8:111,1169; v

AV - rightly divide 1; 1

1) to cut straight, to cut straight ways
1a) to proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course, equiv.
to doing right
2) to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth
directly and correctly

Define "true science".

 

[joshua 1 9]

Define "true science".

My definition is where the rubber meets the road. If the tire blows out that is not true science. For example planed obsolescence is science but it is not true science.

The word science in the Bible is also translated knowledge, at least in the book of Daniel1:4: "God gave them knowledge H4093 and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams".

04093 // edm // madda` // mad-daw' // or
// edm // madda` // mad-dah' //

from 03045 ; TWOT - 848g; n m

AV - knowledge 4, thought 1, science 1; 6

1) knowledge, thought
1a) knowledge
1b) mind, thought, place of knowledge

6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

 

[In situ]

Because your translation is wrong.

Perhaps, but have you considered that meaning is not always decided by the sender but the receiver?

That means it does not matter what you mean. What matters is how you are understood. As such you need to weight your words more careful if you want to be understood in the way you intended it to be.

Atheists are very militant to defend their lack of a belief in God.

I do not deny that this might be the case, however I also feel their is a bit of projection from your side as well.

It is better just to let them be.

Sure I am not to saying that you must continue debate someone if you find it pointless .

However, if so, then you are not entitled to accuse any opponents after you have had a discussion with them. After all, if you make a claim and someone does not believe you then you cannot afterwards blame the opponent for you own shortcomings when it comes to convince them of the validity of your claim.

God has called us to peace. IF someone wants to know the truth I will do all I can to help them. If they do not want to know the truth then we are to leave them alone.

Are you saying when people question the validity of your truths then it means they don't want to know the truth?

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet."

That is a convenient quote from the bible, but what about the quote that says that one should always be prepared to defend one's faith against the unbelievers. Why can that command not be apply in situations like this - what is it I do not understand here?

 

[bhsmte]

My definition is where the rubber meets the road. If the tire blows out that is not true science. For example planed obsolescence is science but it is not true science.

The word science in the Bible is also translated knowledge, at least in the book of Daniel1:4: "God gave them knowledge H4093 and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams".

04093 // edm // madda` // mad-daw' // or
// edm // madda` // mad-dah' //

from 03045 ; TWOT - 848g; n m

AV - knowledge 4, thought 1, science 1; 6

1) knowledge, thought
1a) knowledge
1b) mind, thought, place of knowledge

6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

Doesn't even come close, to adequately answering the question.

 

[In situ]

The word science in the Bible is also translated knowledge,

I do not understand. Why would a word from a 2-3000 years old texts be translated into "science" instead of 'knowledge"?

 

[In situ]

Doesn't even come close, to adequately answering the question.

That was not fair. You asked for a definition, not "your" definition.

 

[bhsmte]

That was not fair. You asked for a definition, not "your" definition.

I was hoping his answer, would give us insight, how he can tell; "true science" from "false science" in some sort of reliable way.

I didn't see that, maybe you did.

 

[In situ]

There is no problem...but there is an indication of the nature of the matter. Did you consider that?

No I did not, but Joshua have pointed it out to me and I have taken notice.

 

[In situ]

I was hoping his answer, would give us insight, how he can tell; "true science" from "false science" in some sort of reliable way.

I didn't see that, maybe you did.

No I did not, the only thing I saw was you asking for a definition and you got one. If my judgment was made in error, then I do withdraw it and apologize for my erroneous comment.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I was hoping his answer, would give us insight, how he can tell; "true science" from "false science" in some sort of reliable way.

I didn't see that, maybe you did.

The Bible makes it pretty easy to understand. True science understands & false science would represent a lack of understanding.

1:4Children in whom was no blemish*, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the king's palace,and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.

0995 // Nyb // biyn // bene //

a primitive root; TWOT - 239; v

AV - understand 62, understanding 32, consider 22, prudent 8, perceive 7,
regard 6, discern 3, instruct 3, misc. 27; 170


1) to discern, understand, consider
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to perceive, discern
1a2) to understand, know (with the mind)
1a3) to observe, mark, give heed to, distinguish, consider
1a4) to have discernment, insight, understanding
1b) (Niphal) to be discerning, intelligent, discreet, have understanding
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to understand
1c2) to cause to understand, give understanding, teach
1d) (Hithpolel) to show oneself discerning or attentive, consider diligently
1e) (Polel) to teach, instruct
2) (TWOT) prudent, regard

 

[In situ]

The Bible makes it pretty easy to understand. True science understands & false science would represent a lack of understanding.

Then I would say the Bible seams not to agree with a modern western culture view on what science is about. For example, engineers deals with the things we understand, while science deal with the things we know we don't understand, a.k.a. research. Once the researched is done it usually "decays" into an engineer discipline. That said; there exists a research gray zone between engineering and science which overlaps the two fields.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I do not understand. Why would a word from a 2-3000 years old texts be translated into "science" instead of 'knowledge"?

This all has to do with context. Daniel and his associates had been taken into captivity to Babylon. The king was looking for a few good men to serve him at a high level in the government. One area they were to be tested in was a high level of understanding or ability to understand science. This is not a Hebrew Knowledge so much as Science as the Babylonian people understood it. In the same way Paul and Timothy were talking about the Science of the Greek people. The key word here to qualify science is to have a proper understanding. So false science would result from a lack of understanding. God gives us wisdom, knowledge and understanding. All of these words would take a whole book to explain. Even the word Evolution has hundreds of thousands of books written to explain it. Science has knowledge and understanding but they usually lack wisdom.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Then I would say the Bible seams not to agree with a modern western culture view on what science is about. For example, engineers deals with the things we understand, while science deal with the things we know we don't understand, a.k.a. research. Once the researched is done it usually "decays" into an engineer discipline. That said; there exists a research gray zone between engineering and science which overlaps the two fields.

My son is graduating from High School with a years worth of College Credits. He is pretty much going to get a full ride and full scholarship. Esp if he studies computer engineering. His grandfather got a full scholarship for both college and medical school. I think they know who to give an education to and who not to give a free education to. Who is qualified and who is not qualified. Again and again I have been told that Science is based on peer review. So they can determine what has integrity and what does not have integrity. Yet nonsense will still creep it's way into popular opinion that has not been tested or tired to be found true, but is little more then an opinion. The Bible has been more then tested and we can depend on the Written Word of God. It all comes down to understanding the Bible. Again and again the skeptics and scoffers throw out the pratts and all the false religion they can find. We already know it is not true. The problem is they do not know or understand what is true when it comes to the Bible or religion. James tells us: "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."James 1:27 The Bible talks about being tested by fire to burn off what is not of God: ""And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested."

 

[bhsmte]

The Bible makes it pretty easy to understand. True science understands & false science would represent a lack of understanding.

1:4Children in whom was no blemish*, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the king's palace,and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.

0995 // Nyb // biyn // bene //

a primitive root; TWOT - 239; v

AV - understand 62, understanding 32, consider 22, prudent 8, perceive 7,
regard 6, discern 3, instruct 3, misc. 27; 170


1) to discern, understand, consider
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to perceive, discern
1a2) to understand, know (with the mind)
1a3) to observe, mark, give heed to, distinguish, consider
1a4) to have discernment, insight, understanding
1b) (Niphal) to be discerning, intelligent, discreet, have understanding
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to understand
1c2) to cause to understand, give understanding, teach
1d) (Hithpolel) to show oneself discerning or attentive, consider diligently
1e) (Polel) to teach, instruct
2) (TWOT) prudent, regard

Major fail.

 

[Hoghead1]

I don't think you quite grasped my point about meaningfulness, in suti. The have meaning or significance is to have impact. The problem is that we obtain a satisfaction or value, only to lose it. It fades away. So, why bother to do anything if it is all going to go up in smoke soon enough anyway? Trying to answer this question by saying that life begets life doesn't come anywhere near an answer.

It is generally recognized among scientists themselves that science is not equipped at all to deal with questions of meaning, value, significance. Science could well say an atomic bomb could be build, for example; but that was neutral as to whether or not it should be used. That decision came via the President. Some of the scientists protested using it. However, this was seen as a value call and so a political decision, and so they had no voice in it actual use.

 

[In situ]

My son is graduating from High School with a years worth of College Credits. He is pretty much going to get a full ride and full scholarship. Esp if he studies computer engineering. His grandfather got a full scholarship for both college and medical school. I think they know who to give an education to and who not to give a free education to. Who is qualified and who is not qualified. Again and again I have been told that Science is based on peer review. So they can determine what has integrity and what does not have integrity. Yet nonsense will still creep it's way into popular opinion that has not been tested or tired to be found true, but is little more then an opinion. The Bible has been more then tested and we can depend on the Written Word of God. It all comes down to understanding the Bible. Again and again the skeptics and scoffers throw out the pratts and all the false religion they can find. We already know it is not true. The problem is they do not know or understand what is true when it comes to the Bible or religion. James tells us: "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."James 1:27 The Bible talks about being tested by fire to burn off what is not of God: ""And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested."

I think this it is not a question of what qualities science has but how you validate the qualities. For instance anyone can claim to possess "the truth"- but how do you validate such claim? I.e. how do you validate what you refere to as "true science" ?

(The definition you gave would match what I call "science" and "applied science", in where science deal with what is not understood and applied science (e.g. engineering) deals with that we do understand).