Remodeling the Bible as a book of truth instead of a book of myths

[BobRyan]

One thing I have noticed is that the Theo_Evo sect is scrambling to remodle the bible in order to explain how sin and death were not a result of the fall of one man in the garden.

That is an excellent observation.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob!

Could you please supply the a link to the source which clearly shows the cause-and-effect you claim occurred..?

That is, Richard Dawkins used to be a Christian until he discovered that the Bible was myth (the cause) and then he became an atheist/agnostic (the effect).

Thanks,

E.I.

It's a valid question -- I'll ask it.

You would like that reference on video ? published in theaters for all the world to see?

Because that has already been done when he was interviewed by Ben Stein .

But I think some people have already posted that they would not "Allow themselves" to see video-taped verbatim evidence that does not flatter T.E. forms of blind-faith-evolutionism.

So much the better for atheists of course --


"Both his parents were interested in natural sciences, and they answered Dawkins's questions in scientific terms.[20] Dawkins describes his childhood as "a normal Anglican upbringing".[21] He was a Christian until halfway through his teenage years, at which point he concluded that the theory of evolution was a better explanation for life's complexity, and ceased believing in a god.[19] Dawkins states: "the main residual reason why I was religious was from being so impressed with the complexity of life and feeling that it had to have a designer, and I think it was when I realised that Darwinism was a far superior explanation that pulled the rug out from under the argument of design. And that left me with nothing."[19]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins#Early_life


=========================================

at :50 seconds into this video



"There's a kind of science defense lobby or an evolution defense lobby, in particular," he tells the camera. "They are mostly atheists, but they are wanting to --desperately wanting -- to be friendly to mainstream, sensible religious people. And the way you do that is to tell them that there's no incompatibility between science and religion."


(This plainly rankles).

"If they called me as a witness, and a lawyer said, 'Dr. Dawkins, has your belief in evolution, has your study of evolution turned you toward (atheism)?' I would have to say yes. And that is the worst possible thing I could say for winning you that court case. So people like me are bad news for...the science lobby, the evolution lobby."


(Dawkins adds, )

"By the way, I'm being a h--luva lot more frank and honest in this interview than many people in this field would be."

At 3;04 min:sec

“And it was then – when I did discovered evilution when I discovered Darwinism, when I DID understand it – then that finally killed off my remaining religious faith."

Richard Dawkins. The Movie – “Expelled”

from -- http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/04/expelled_exposed_exposed005090.html

(caution to true believers in evolutionism's orthodoxy - it is claimed by some that every verbatim video, audio taped recording, document that does not further promote the spread of evolutionism is really an evil trick put on by the world to disadvantage the religion of evolutionism. Please consider that before allowing yourself to read this post)

 

[BobRyan]

Allegory, metaphor, mythology and parables might not be literally true but they can and do powerfully express spiritual truths.

Indeed for those whose religion is little more than Aesop's Fables - one must milk those fables for all one can get. I don't think anyone would deny that point. But fore those willing to believe the Bible account of the virgin birth, resurrection of Christ, miracles in the Bible - 7 day creation week, fall of mankind - there is... "another option".

 

[BobRyan]

But no wrath came, Just a loving Son of God who revealed a heavenly Father that was different than the dim view of the God depicted in parts of the OT.

In the OT - God destroys one entire generation on planet earth - during the flood - in Genesis 7-8.

In Rev 20 -- the NT and in Matt 7 - we are told that God destroys not just a generation of living wicked - but raises to life EVERY GENERATION - of the wicked from the days of Adam to the end of the world - and destroys them all at once. Orders of magnitude larger event.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I'm not sure it has to do with the law as much as you put it. Also, keep in mind Peter was with Jesus for over 3 years...getting formal training.

Secondly Romans 5:15 mentions death...as well as verse 17.
Part of your remolding has to do with sin and how sin spread because of one man....evolutionism can't make that claim.

Evolution does not take into consideration the fact that we live in a fallen world. Evolution does not take into consideration that God has plans to restore all of His Creation.

 

[Hoghead1]

You are taking for granted here, Joshua 19, a number of implicit assumptions which can be seriously questioned. Many Christians do not believe in original sin and with good reason. Obviously you do, but very strong arguments based on Scripture show this might not at all be a biblical claim. Also, who says God intended the Bible to be a scientific geophysical witness? I sure don't agree with that at all and find there are some pretty good reasons why God would not so have intended.

 

[Colter]

Or 1000's years before the occurred as in the case of Daniel's prediction that covered 2300 years of future history - and beyond.

The Bible is not matter of someone having a "long memory" as you and I may both agree. Rather the actual text says it is about God who is infinite in power and understanding - telling someone something "with accuracy". Thus in 2Peter 1:19-21 "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit - spoke from God". Which is why even in the NT when quoting the OT the writers can say "The Holy Spirit says" -- (Heb 3:7)

You have offered speculation that the writers were merely guessing as the "counter" to what the Bible claims about itself. You are of course welcomed to your own speculation in that regard.



Nobody on planet earth has ever claimed to have found the oldest Hebrew document ever written so we do not yet know how old the Hebrew language is - .... without a lot more speculation. (Unless we speculate that with a single document the entire language popped into existence - with that one person).



In the Bible the penalty for being a false prophet is - death. And one sign of it - is to claim that God said something that and then to have that statement be proved to be false doctrine - when tested "sola scriptura". This is a "very different" model than speculating that "well it is really just people making stuff up as best they can and making mistakes at times".



John was not a contemporary with Daniel. So John was "influenced by" God - and the Bible of his day which included the book of Daniel.



John said "behold the LAMB of God - the TAKES AWAY the sin of the world" -- John predicted Christ as the Passover Lamb that would take way sin. In John's culture - lambs only took sin away -- one way. He would have known of no other.

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

Hebrews 8:6-10 says it was Christ who gave the OT - Ten Commandments on Sinai.

in 1 Cor 10:4 - Paul says it was Christ who was God that followed Israel in the desert.

John did predict that Christ would bring about judgment - as did Christ in Luke 12 -- but Jesus knew that before that must come the cross.

Luke 12
49 “I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! 51 Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

Peter confirms this coming destruction by fire.
2 Peter 3

5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
A New Heaven and Earth
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


Paul also
2 Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed

Those hearing Johns preaching would have understood him to say that the day of the coming of the Messiah and judgment was eminent. Neither occurred, not only was there no wrath as John preached, but Jesus was quite different than the expectations of a priest, prophet and king who would take up David's corrupt and exaggerated political seat to rule the world from Jerusalem. The NT writers were all former Jews who sought to justify their conversion and faith in Christ using the old ways of thinking.

 

[-57]

Evolution does not take into consideration the fact that we live in a fallen world. Evolution does not take into consideration that God has plans to restore all of His Creation.

You seemed to have not answered the question. We live in a fallen world....how did that happen considering adam and Eve never existed? How does evolutionism allow sin to enter through one man and spread to all?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Many Christians do not believe in original sin and with good reason.

The rules of this board are that we can not question a persons Christianity. Still the board follows the Christian Creeds that were developed to know just who is and who is not a Christian and teaching the truth. Go to the top of the page and you will see: "statement of faith". If you read the statement of faith you will see: "I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)".

I understand that "original sin" is a dogma developed by Augustine. But I am not quoting Augustine, I am going by what Paul said in the Bible in his letter to the Roman Church: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--" (5:12) Right off the bat we have problems because people start to say that death was not in the world before Adam. Clearly Science does not support that contention.

While the term: "original sin" is not in the Bible we can perhaps disregard what Augustine said about it. Still the question is what does Paul say about it. We know that Paul can be difficult to understand: As Peter says: "Some things in his letters are hard to understand." 2 Pet 3:6, Peter then goes on to warn: "the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." So there is a warning here that we need to pay attention to.

That is why this is the Holy Spirit dispensation, as John says: "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things" (John 14:26a) We can not teach people the truth, we can only help them to find the truth for themselves as they are lead by the Holy Spirit of God.

http://biblehub.com/library/torrey/...e_holy_spirit/chapter_xvi_the_holy_spirit.htm

 

[joshua 1 9]

You seemed to have not answered the question. We live in a fallen world....how did that happen considering adam and Eve never existed?

What are you talking about: "never existed"? Of course they existed. Even science has evidence in the DNA that they existed. I am talking about the Adam and Eve we read about in the Bible. Are you talking about the Bible or are you making a reference to something other then the Bible?

How does evolutionism allow sin to enter through one man and spread to all?

Again, what are you talking about. I said exactly the opposite of this. Evolution does not take sin into consideration. Because Evolution does not always represent science. One area to investigate is sin and sickness. If you look at the extensive studies of Dr Ornish you will see that the leading cause of death: Heart Disease can be avoided though diet, exercise and learning how to control stress. This indicates scientific evidence that sickness is not random with no known cause. There is a cause for heart disease and it is something that can be avoided. I am talking about coronary artery disease, but there are other diseases that the Ornish program seems to help. His program has been proven and accepted by Congress to be paid for by Medicate and also the Ornish program is paid for by all the major insurance companies. That is when the rubber hits the road, when the insurance company will pay, because they need substantial evidence in the benefit of a program before they will pay for it.

BTW stress control is a buzz word but it really means having healthy relationships and not dysfunctional relationships with people. People really should investigate that a little bit. Maybe we should start a thread on it.

 

[-57]

What are you talking about: "never existed"? Of course they existed. Even science has evidence in the DNA that they existed. I am talking about the Adam and Eve we read about in the Bible. Are you talking about the Bible or are you making a reference to something other then the Bible?

I was under the impression you were of the belief Adam and Eve were mythical, allegorical people.

 

[joshua 1 9]

You seemed to have not answered the question. We live in a fallen world....how did that happen considering adam and Eve never existed? How does evolutionism allow sin to enter through one man and spread to all?

There is a women named Kat Kerr who claims to have gone to Heaven many times. She teaches that the problem began with Satan back at the time of the Dinosaurs. Her story is that Satan got mad at God for casting him down to the earth. So Satan tampered with God's creation to get it to destroy itself. He did this with the Dinosaurs when he got them to begin to devour each other. If anyone is interested in the story then what happened next was that God flooded Pangaea and that was the beginning of continental drift. After that God froze the water and that was the beginning of an ice age. Kat Kerr does study science and her story does coincide with what is know in science.

My point is that the story of Adam and Eve and then later on the story of Noah and his flood does contain some shadows and types that go back in time and forward in time. Adam and Eve and Noah were literal historic people. But the symbolism of their story goes far beyond them. That is why we are still talking about them today. Just like we are still talking about Helen of Troy today. We still ask did Paris kidnap her as her husband claimed. Or did she run off with her boyfriend as Paris claims. My point is that this is a "love" story of Homer that has endured until today because it still speaks to people. I think that Helen was a real person and Troy was a real city because it has been found based on the information given in Homers book. A book that actually was required reading when I was in High School.

[rant mode]If people know nothing about these stories and they have never read or studied them, then why do they deserve to give an opinion on something that they obviously know nothing about and have never even studied the subject? Esp in this day and age when it is so easy to do a google search and get a short version of the story on Wiki. Are they so lazy that they can not even do that much research on the subject. Then they want people to spoon feed them and when you put time and effort into teaching them they are ungrateful and insult you. People clearly need to do something so they are less dysfunctional. Churches should take disfunctional people and turn them into functional people. Far to often they do the opposite. [/rant mode]

 

[joshua 1 9]

I was under the impression you were of the belief Adam and Eve were mythical, allegorical people.

Not at all. Again the opposite is true. I believe Adam and Eve were very real people that lived 6,000 years ago. It is a story that we clearly do not understand for all of it's symbolism. For example just what was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We can only speculate. For example was it the apple tree? The apple tree was a hybrid. They took branches from two different berry trees and they came up with a apple that is large in comparison. All we can do is speculate and try to determine what the message is for us today. Generation after generation has found meaning in this story and because it speaks to them and their human condition the story has been preserved to this day. Moses for one recorded it 3500 years ago and we still have his version of it today.

 

[-57]

There is a women named Kat Kerr who claims to have gone to Heaven many times. She teaches that the problem began with Satan back at the time of the Dinosaurs. Her story is that Satan got mad at God for casting him down to the earth. So Satan tampered with God's creation to get it to destroy itself. He did this with the Dinosaurs when he got them to begin to devour each other. If anyone is interested in the story then what happened next was that God flooded Pangaea and that was the beginning of continental drift. After that God froze the water and that was the beginning of an ice age. Kat Kerr does study science and her story does coincide with what is know in science.

My point is that the story of Adam and Eve and then later on the story of Noah and his flood does contain some shadows and types that go back in time and forward in time. Adam and Eve and Noah were literal historic people. But the symbolism of their story goes far beyond them. That is why we are still talking about them today. Just like we are still talking about Helen of Troy today. We still ask did Paris kidnap her as her husband claimed. Or did she run off with her boyfriend as Paris claims. My point is that this is a "love" story of Homer that has endured until today because it still speaks to people. I think that Helen was a real person and Troy was a real city because it has been found based on the information given in Homers book. A book that actually was required reading when I was in High School.

[rant mode]If people know nothing about these stories and they have never read or studied them, then why do they deserve to give an opinion on something that they obviously know nothing about and have never even studied the subject? Esp in this day and age when it is so easy to do a google search and get a short version of the story on Wiki. Are they so lazy that they can not even do that much research on the subject. Then they want people to spoon feed them and when you put time and effort into teaching them they are ungrateful and insult you. People clearly need to do something so they are less dysfunctional. Churches should take disfunctional people and turn them into functional people. Far to often they do the opposite. [/rant mode]

Kat Kerr believes......Jesus, (who was the Word made flesh) born through immaculate conception and then crucified on the cross at Calvary to pay the price to free us from sin.

She errors pretty quickly.

Above you said...."She teaches that the problem began with Satan back at the time of the Dinosaurs. Her story is that Satan got mad at God for casting him down to the earth. So Satan tampered with God's creation to get it to destroy itself. He did this with the Dinosaurs when he got them to begin to devour each other".

...why should I believe that?

 

[Colter]

In the OT - God destroys one entire generation on planet earth - during the flood - in Genesis 7-8.

In Rev 20 -- the NT and in Matt 7 - we are told that God destroys not just a generation of living wicked - but raises to life EVERY GENERATION - of the wicked from the days of Adam to the end of the world - and destroys them all at once. Orders of magnitude larger event.

The exaggerated flood myth was a devise used by the Hebrew redactors who were attempting to trace their blood lines back to Adam and Eve. Unable to do so they decided to drown the whole world in its own wickedness. The audience was the child like mind of Bronze Age sheep herders. The loss of Israel was a devistating blow to the nationalist pride of the Israelites. It lead them to convert secular history into a miraculous fiction. In fact some of the history books mentioned within the pseudo biographical narratives of the Israelites disappeared?!?!?!

 

[joshua 1 9]

Kat Kerr believes......Jesus, (who was the Word made flesh) born through immaculate conception and then crucified on the cross at Calvary to pay the price to free us from sin.

She errors pretty quickly.

Above you said...."She teaches that the problem began with Satan back at the time of the Dinosaurs. Her story is that Satan got mad at God for casting him down to the earth. So Satan tampered with God's creation to get it to destroy itself. He did this with the Dinosaurs when he got them to begin to devour each other".

...why should I believe that?

I am not saying you should believe it. I think it is worth while to learn what she has to teach. Mostly this is for children. For now her books are still aimed at teaching adults. However if she contradicts science then that is something we could discuss. I just do not see what difference it makes if you regard Kat Kerr as true or not.

 

[-57]

I am not saying you should believe it. I think it is worth while to learn what she has to teach. Mostly this is for children. For now her books are still aimed at teaching adults. However if she contradicts science then that is something we could discuss. I just do not see what difference it makes if you regard Kat Kerr as true or not.

I've read several books where people "went to heaven and back" and have found all of them in contradiction to scripture. If kat Kerr is not true.....then the dinosaur stuff she presented is false. For starters it's not biblical and her notions must be added to scripture in contradiction to scripture.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I've read several books where people "went to heaven and back" and have found all of them in contradiction to scripture. If kat Kerr is not true.....then the dinosaur stuff she presented is false. For starters it's not biblical and her notions must be added to scripture in contradiction to scripture.

I found just the opposite. But that is fine. If that is the results you got then that is what you found. That is your testimony and people can judge what you say to see if they want to validate it or not. I for one do not validate what you are saying.

 

[joshua 1 9]

He was a Christian until halfway through his teenage years, at which point he concluded that the theory of evolution was a better explanation for life's complexity, and ceased believing in a god.

That is a logical fallacy because there is no contradiction between the theory of evolution and the Anglican religion. Just like there is no contradiction between the theory of evolution and the Catholic religion. One can not contradict the other because the theory of evolution is based on natural evidence given to us by God. Science can only work with the evidence God gives them to work with. He sells books based on his brand of skepticism but skepticism tears down it does not build up. So in the end he may have entertained people but contributes nothing to our understanding or the knowledge that we have. He serves only to test what we believe to verify if it is true or not.

 

[-57]

That is a logical fallacy because there is no contradiction between the theory of evolution and the Anglican religion. Just like there is no contradiction between the theory of evolution and the Catholic religion. One can not contradict the other because the theory of evolution is based on natural evidence given to us by God. Science can only work with the evidence God gives them to work with. He sells books based on his brand of skepticism but skepticism tears down it does not build up. So in the end he may have entertained people but contributes nothing to our understanding or the knowledge that we have. He serves only to test what we believe to verify if it is true or not.

Big contradiction..If evolutionism is true...then Paul was wrong where he said sin and death entered by ONE man.