Futurist Only Babilon

[tranquil]

Okay time to add clarity to the discombobulation in yours and dfw's thinking on the Antichrist. Time to end the confusion... and this is easy to understand. So you will remember forever the three variances.

Time to hit the topic of (1) false (Jesus) Christs (the impersonators); (2) the Antichrist; (3) and failed Christs (in Judaism).

___________________________________________________________

The Antichrist cannot be a Jesus impersonator because the Antichrist has got to be against Jesus and instead of Jesus as the king of Israel. The Antichrist will deny any sort of validity of Jesus being the Christ.

But... aren't there, and will be, Jesus impersonators? Yes, both dfw and tranquil are right in their thinking on this. The impersonators are false (Jesus) Christs that Jesus warned about in Matthew 24. The thing to remember though is Jesus impersonators cannot be the Antichrist, nor either of the beast(s) of Revelation. More about false christs.....

false christs (which is what dfw and tranquil are actually talking about):

A false christ is someone who pretends to be the person - Jesus, returned. Which Jesus said there would be many false (Jesus) christs arise, claiming to be him.

And some will say he Jesus Christ is in the desert, but don't go there, for Jesus said his return would be as evident as lightning flashing across the sky.

An example of a false christ is Jose' Miranda, who claims to be Jesus, His Second Coming. There's another guy, John Miller, in Australia. And another guy, Vissarion, in Russia. Essentially a false christ is someone who claims to be Jesus returned.

the Antichrist:

The Antichrist has a completely different connotation. The Antichrist is not going to be claiming to be Jesus. Just the opposite. He will be against Jesus being the rightful King of Israel. And instead, he will think that he himself is.

The Antichrist by necessity will be a Jew and his religion Judaism for him to become King of Israel, Son of David. The Antichrist will be opposed to Christianity and Jesus. An example of someone fitting more the mold of the Antichrist would be the late Rabbi Schneerson, a Jewish Rabbi, who many Jews believed was the messiah.

A key thing to remember is that the Antichrist is going to cause the great falling away in belief that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah. That mystery of iniquity was already at work back in the days of the apostles.

failed christs (failed Messiah's):

This is more or less what the Jews think, if you get to talking to them.

In Judaism, there have been several individuals (I think the count is 18 or so) like simon Bar Kochba, who was a candidate to become the King of Israel but came up short. And the late Rabbi Schneerson. Judaism terms those persons as failed christs (failed "messiah's" actually, since they don't use the term christ). - if you talk to them, the Jews.

Judaism's list of failed messiahs are neither false christs the impersonators (someone claiming to be Jesus returned), nor the Antichrist.

I like your post, but what about this scenario:

What if Jose Miranda, John Miller, or Vissarion started doing (false) miracles, and was accepted/ anointed by Israel?

 

[Douggg]

I like your post, but what about this scenario:

What if Jose Miranda, John Miller, or Vissarion started doing (false) miracles, and was accepted/ anointed by Israel?

The reason none of them will be anointed as the King of Israel (the messiah) is because Israel is a nation which is nearly all Judaism. The messiah they are looking for is someone other than Jesus, or anyone claiming to be Jesus.

The Jews (Judaism) has a list of criteria that the messiah must do in order to be the messiah. Judaism in its rejection of Jesus, claims Jesus failed to do what was on the list.

The Jews reject the miracles that Jesus did based on some verses in Deuteronomy concerning false prophets - if anyone claims to be a prophet - such a person on the basis of doing miracles is not enough.

Here is kinda what they are looking for...from Judaism 101.com...

"Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15)."

 

[tranquil]

Lol



Jesus will also be King over Judah and Israel ... So it seems the false prophet could claim to Jesus



Perhaps the King and high priest duties will be unified




This seems to suggest that the false prophet is a false Elijah calling down fire

Will Jesus have 2 horns in the future will he not take 2 sticks to make one people Israel and Judah ?.... The false prophet will seek to do the same unite the world Jew and gentile

I'm thinking that the 1st Seal, white horseman, is, in the Kabalah Judaism terms, Messiah ben Joseph, aka Doug's 'antichrist' (Doug's false prophet being Messiah ben David, which I agree with).

I think the Seals are talking about the apostate civil war, in Matt 24, the birth pangs of the 'nation will rise up against nation' (in civil war) and the white horseman being the apostate leader messiah which leads people into the civil war.

Because they have committed the apostasy of civil war, God sends the Trumpet wrath on them (the day of the Lord's wrath starts at the 6th seal announcement). Thus Apollyon/ Abaddon of Trumpet 5 is the Messiah ben David/ False Prophet.

Mosaic covenant-ly speaking the False Prophet would have to be a Gentile/ Muslim? because the apostates have to be ruled by 2 people: their appointed rebel king and their enemies, ruled by the False Prophet who co-rules with the apostate leader. (In American terms: the US has a civil war. The rebels and their rebel "King" take over the US in part, or in total (via the 10 FEMA governors appointing a new leader). Then the 'rebel' US would be taken over by the Russians. Putin would then co-rule with the apostate rebel non-elected 'president'. Putin would be in charge of finances and would make the former US citizens worship the apostate rebel US leader who had a mortal head wound.

The false prophet's job seems to be to heal the rift between the faithful and unfaithful apostates, but by turning the faithful to unfaithful. As opposed to Jesus, who would heal the rift but with unfaithful turning to faithful.

 

[dfw69]

The reason none of them will be anointed as the King of Israel (the messiah) is because Israel is a nation which is nearly all Judaism. The messiah they are looking for is someone other than Jesus, or anyone claiming to be Jesus.

The Jews (Judaism) has a list of criteria that the messiah must do in order to be the messiah. Judaism in its rejection of Jesus, claims Jesus failed to do what was on the list.

The Jews reject the miracles that Jesus did based on some verses in Deuteronomy concerning false prophets - if anyone claims to be a prophet - such a person on the basis of doing miracles is not enough.

Here is kinda what they are looking for...from Judaism 101.com...

"Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15)."

Yes and they believe the messiah will be a ordinary man not the son of God or a demigod but a son of david ..Who will eventually die and his sons will be successors of the throne that will exist forever never to end again ....

 

[dfw69]

I'm thinking that the 1st Seal, white horseman, is, in the Kabalah Judaism terms, Messiah ben Joseph, aka Doug's 'antichrist' (Doug's false prophet being Messiah ben David, which I agree with).

I think the Seals are talking about the apostate civil war, in Matt 24, the birth pangs of the 'nation will rise up against nation' (in civil war) and the white horseman being the apostate leader messiah which leads people into the civil war.

Because they have committed the apostasy of civil war, God sends the Trumpet wrath on them (the day of the Lord's wrath starts at the 6th seal announcement). Thus Apollyon/ Abaddon of Trumpet 5 is the Messiah ben David/ False Prophet.

Mosaic covenant-ly speaking the False Prophet would have to be a Gentile/ Muslim? because the apostates have to be ruled by 2 people: their appointed rebel king and their enemies, ruled by the False Prophet who co-rules with the apostate leader. (In American terms: the US has a civil war. The rebels and their rebel "King" take over the US in part, or in total (via the 10 FEMA governors appointing a new leader). Then the 'rebel' US would be taken over by the Russians. Putin would then co-rule with the apostate rebel non-elected 'president'. Putin would be in charge of finances and would make the former US citizens worship the apostate rebel US leader who had a mortal head wound.

The false prophet's job seems to be to heal the rift between the faithful and unfaithful apostates, but by turning the faithful to unfaithful. As opposed to Jesus, who would heal the rift but with unfaithful turning to faithful.

You are the first I've encountered to even discuss these ideas similar to mine ... So I'm kinda on virgin ground ..

 

[dfw69]

I'm thinking that the 1st Seal, white horseman, is, in the Kabalah Judaism terms, Messiah ben Joseph, aka Doug's 'antichrist' (Doug's false prophet being Messiah ben David, which I agree with).

I agree ... That is possible

I think the Seals are talking about the apostate civil war, in Matt 24, the birth pangs of the 'nation will rise up against nation' (in civil war) and the white horseman being the apostate leader messiah which leads people into the civil war.

I agree it's possible

Because they have committed the apostasy of civil war, God sends the Trumpet wrath on them (the day of the Lord's wrath starts at the 6th seal announcement). Thus Apollyon/ Abaddon of Trumpet 5 is the Messiah ben David/ False Prophet.

The Assyrian is allowed to rise up to punish gods enemies for crimes committed against his people ... He is commission .

.. You should throw out the word apostasy ... For by then the world will have fallen away in apostate conserning the faith ...

Keep in mind the setting of the rise of the white horse takes place "after" the false messianic age... That rabbinic Judaism messiah will have been well established first ...which will raise some questions I suppose

Mosaic covenant-ly speaking the False Prophet would have to be a Gentile/ Muslim? because the apostates have to be ruled by 2 people: their appointed rebel king and their enemies, ruled by the False Prophet who co-rules with the apostate leader. (In American terms: the US has a civil war. The rebels and their rebel "King" take over the US in part, or in total (via the 10 FEMA governors appointing a new leader). Then the 'rebel' US would be taken over by the Russians. Putin would then co-rule with the apostate rebel non-elected 'president'. Putin would be in charge of finances and would make the former US citizens worship the apostate rebel US leader who had a mortal head wound.

I don't know what will play out in the world that will cumulate to the establishment of the messianic age and 10 kings .... But that has to play out first ...so the final antichrist will not be a Muslim

The false prophet's job seems to be to heal the rift between the faithful and unfaithful apostates, but by turning the faithful to unfaithful. As opposed to Jesus, who would heal the rift but with unfaithful turning to faithful.

Not sure what you mean .. Who are the faithful and unfaithful?

 

[Bible2+]

Douggg said in post 159:

A key thing to remember is that the Antichrist is going to cause the great falling away in belief that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah. That mystery of iniquity was already at work back in the days of the apostles.

Note that the antichrist mystery of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2:7) can include more than just a denial that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

The Antichrist will have a False Prophet who will work amazing miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b) by which people will be deceived (Revelation 13:12-14, Revelation 19:20, cf. Matthew 24:24). And God will send strong delusion on unrepentant people so that they will believe "the" lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12; in the original Greek, there is a "the" before "lie"), which could be the antichrist lie which has been around since the 1st century AD (2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), and which in our future will deceive the world into consciously and openly worshipping both Lucifer (Satan) the dragon and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3-9), as God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). The antichrist lie not only denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), but also denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), and denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), which denial is one of the key doctrines of Gnosticism.

Gnosticism is an ancient religious movement which says that everything material is inherently evil, while only that which is pure spirit can be good. Gnosticism teaches that all humans used to be pure spirit and dwelling in bliss from all eternity in a purely-spiritual heaven, called the "Pleroma", until by some mishap, humanity fell into the material universe and became trapped in fleshly bodies. Gnosticism reviles YHWH, the God of Biblical Christians, and the Creator of the material universe and of all fleshly bodies, as an evil, subordinate deity, a "Demiurge", who is keeping humans imprisoned and suffering in fleshly bodies and in the material universe.

Gnosticism became one of the main enemies of the early church, and it will become the greatest enemy of the church during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the Antichrist will be a Gnostic. He will teach the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And the Antichrist, like the Gnostics, will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will instead bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

Gnosticism has some core teachings in common with the major religions of Buddhism and Hinduism:

1. The material realm is unreal and evil. (Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Maya", from Hinduism.)

2. People must strive to escape the material realm completely, and enter a state which is wholly non-physical (Parinirvana in Buddhism, the Pleroma in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Brahman", from Hinduism.

3. The way for people to get free from their imprisonment within the material realm is through their minds attaining a certain level of enlightenment (Nirvana in Buddhism, Gnosis in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Moksha", from Hinduism.

4. The way for their minds to attain this certain level of enlightenment is through following the way of the Serpent (one legend of Buddhism says that the Buddha was given the true Buddhism by the King of the Serpents; and in Gnosticism, Gnosis comes from the Christ/the Serpent). Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea of the enlightening serpent, originally called "Kundalini", from Hinduism. (Regarding the serpent in Genesis 3, Gnostics see him as the good guy, just as they see YHWH as the bad guy.)

The Bible contradicts each of the 4 points above:

1. The material realm is real, and was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). God himself is in the flesh (John 1:1,14, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). So there is nothing evil about matter in itself.

2. People must strive to attain to a resurrection (Philippians 3:11), in an immortal human body of flesh and bones, like the immortal human body of flesh and bones that Jesus Christ obtained at his resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25), and in which he will remain forever as believers' fully-human mediator/high priest (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:16-17, Hebrews 7:24-26). His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and when he returns, he will show the scars of the Crucifixion on his body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

3. Resurrected people who have been truly enlightened/illuminated (Ephesians 1:18, Hebrews 10:32) by Jesus Christ (John 14:6-7, John 8:32, John 3:36) will remain in the material realm (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), ultimately living on a new earth with God (Revelation 21:1-4).

4. The Serpent, Satan/Lucifer, is the deceiver of the whole world (Revelation 12:9).

 

[Bible2+]

dfw69 said in post 160:

...these Israelites who have fled to the wilderness to seek gods mercy will find him and his great love and be born again

Regarding "fled to the wilderness", are you thinking of Revelation 12:6,14? If so, note that the woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, and be imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

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dfw69 said in post 166:

I don't know what will play out in the world that will cumulate to the establishment of the messianic age and 10 kings ....

Regarding the "10 kings", are you thinking of Revelation 17:12? If so, note that the 10 kings/horns of the beast in its Antichrist's-empire aspect (Revelation 17:3,12, Revelation 13:1) could be 10 men whom the Antichrist will appoint as kings over 10 major nations, which nations could be the 10 horns in Daniel 7:24. For in Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa.

These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

dfw69 said in post 166:

But that has to play out first ...so the final antichrist will not be a Muslim

Regarding the Antichrist not being a Muslim, that's right. For the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form, insofar as Islam affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171), while the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam affirms that Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Islam affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam (mistakenly) affirms that no man can be God, while the Antichrist will say that he is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), while the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam rejects Lucifer (Satan) as being evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a secretly-apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

-

Even though Islam (in its current form) won't be the religion of the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, Islam could be, since the latter half of the 7th century AD, Revelation 17:10's seventh empire (the Antichrist's empire will be a different, still-future, 8th empire: Revelation 17:11). Also, because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Islam is an anti-gospel religion because, even though it affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 5:17,75), it denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (Koran 9:30, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:72). And it denies that he died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157) and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day. In order to be saved, people have to believe the gospel that Jesus is both the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 3:16,36; 1 John 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

The reason why it is necessary to believe these things in order to be saved is because it was only as the human/divine Son of God that Jesus' suffering during his Passion could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46).

Jesus' suffering during his Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), because Jesus isn't just a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of his soul (Isaiah 53:11) was infinite in amount, even though it wasn't infinite in duration. And so his suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who aren't God have finite souls, for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins, they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23), except Jesus (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11) an infinite amount, when the elect repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

One way to help Muslims understand how Jesus can be God, from everlasting, is to question them about their understanding of the Muslim belief regarding the Koran. For Islam says that there was no time when the Koran didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven, that it has always coexisted with Allah as his word. So Christians can show Muslims that the Bible says that before Jesus' incarnation, there was no time when he didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven. He has always coexisted with God the Father as God the Word (John 1:1,14).

This isn't to suggest that the Muslim claim regarding the Koran is true, or that the book itself is true. Indeed, (again) because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

 

[Bible2+]

tranquil said in post 163:

I'm thinking that the 1st Seal, white horseman, is, in the Kabalah Judaism terms, Messiah ben Joseph, aka Doug's 'antichrist' (Doug's false prophet being Messiah ben David, which I agree with).

Regarding the 1st seal's horseman, on the white horse (Revelation 6:1-2), note that it could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus physically: Acts 3:21) going forth to all nations and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (cf. John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all nations during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow (Revelation 6:2) is a weapon that is able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).

tranquil said in post 163:

I think the Seals are talking about the apostate civil war, in Matt 24, the birth pangs of the 'nation will rise up against nation' (in civil war) and the white horseman being the apostate leader messiah which leads people into the civil war.

Seals 2-4, the last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8), represent a horrible future war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be subsequently fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

tranquil said in post 163:

God sends the Trumpet wrath on them (the day of the Lord's wrath starts at the 6th seal announcement).

Note that the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the 1st stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

tranquil said in post 163:

Thus Apollyon/ Abaddon of Trumpet 5 is the Messiah ben David/ False Prophet.

Note that in Revelation 9:11, Abaddon/Apollyon could be a powerful fallen angel whom Satan has assigned to rule the bottomless pit, and to serve as king over the strange locust-like beings who now reside there (Revelation 9:2-11). Satan could be allowed to release the locust-like beings (and their fallen angelic king, Abaddon) to torment mankind for 5 literal months (Revelation 9:1-11) at one point during the 1st half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Note that Abaddon doesn't have to be a human, just as the 4 fallen angels who will be in charge of the 200 million strange horse-like beings who will subsequently kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:14-19) don't have to be 4 humans.

 

[dfw69]

Regarding "fled to the wilderness", are you thinking of Revelation 12:6,14? If so, note that the woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, and be imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

*******



Regarding the "10 kings", are you thinking of Revelation 17:12? If so, note that the 10 kings/horns of the beast in its Antichrist's-empire aspect (Revelation 17:3,12, Revelation 13:1) could be 10 men whom the Antichrist will appoint as kings over 10 major nations, which nations could be the 10 horns in Daniel 7:24. For in Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa.

These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.



Regarding the Antichrist not being a Muslim, that's right. For the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form, insofar as Islam affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171), while the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam affirms that Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Islam affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam (mistakenly) affirms that no man can be God, while the Antichrist will say that he is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), while the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam rejects Lucifer (Satan) as being evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a secretly-apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

-

Even though Islam (in its current form) won't be the religion of the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, Islam could be, since the latter half of the 7th century AD, Revelation 17:10's seventh empire (the Antichrist's empire will be a different, still-future, 8th empire: Revelation 17:11). Also, because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Islam is an anti-gospel religion because, even though it affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 5:17,75), it denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (Koran 9:30, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:72). And it denies that he died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157) and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day. In order to be saved, people have to believe the gospel that Jesus is both the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 3:16,36; 1 John 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

The reason why it is necessary to believe these things in order to be saved is because it was only as the human/divine Son of God that Jesus' suffering during his Passion could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46).

Jesus' suffering during his Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), because Jesus isn't just a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of his soul (Isaiah 53:11) was infinite in amount, even though it wasn't infinite in duration. And so his suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who aren't God have finite souls, for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins, they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23), except Jesus (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11) an infinite amount, when the elect repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

One way to help Muslims understand how Jesus can be God, from everlasting, is to question them about their understanding of the Muslim belief regarding the Koran. For Islam says that there was no time when the Koran didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven, that it has always coexisted with Allah as his word. So Christians can show Muslims that the Bible says that before Jesus' incarnation, there was no time when he didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven. He has always coexisted with God the Father as God the Word (John 1:1,14).

This isn't to suggest that the Muslim claim regarding the Koran is true, or that the book itself is true. Indeed, (again) because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Brother bible2 you believe we are Israel ... I believe we Jew and Gentiles are new Israel too .. We will be citizens of new Jerusalem .. But before new Jerusalem comes down from heaven our citizenship remains in heaven...

Jesus still has work to accomplish ..it is evident...and one day he will return to earth to establish peace for a 1000 years ...and he will yet choose the branches that were broken off.. Romans 11.. This is the woman in the wilderness that flees when the final antichrist will wage war against her

 

[Douggg]

The antichrist lie not only denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), but also denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), and denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), which denial is one of the key doctrines of Gnosticism.

You are quoting the passage incorrectly.
"denies that Christ is not come in the flesh"

Do you know what that means? It means that Jesus was born of a sinner - Mary. It means that Jesus was human - as well as being God.

So to deny that Christ is come in the flesh is to deny that Jesus was human.

Now I could be wrong, and "Christ is come in the flesh" means Christ lives in us, as we live in these fleshly bodies.

The Antichrist won't be a Gnostic regardless. His religion will be Judaism in order to become the King of Israel.

 

[Douggg]

For the Antichrist will be a Gnostic. He will teach the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (1 John 4:3

Again, you misquote the bible and what is being said. The bible doesn't say Christ is in the flesh. It says Jesus Christ is come in the flesh - meaning he was born of a sinner, Mary, and is therefore human - as well as being God.

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[Bible2+]

dfw69 said in post 170:

But before new Jerusalem comes down from heaven our citizenship remains in heaven...

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

In Philippians 3:20, the original Greek word (politeuma: G4175) translated as "conversation" indeed means citizenship. The citizenship of Christians is indeed currently in heaven (Philippians 3:20) because the literal city of New Jerusalem is currently in heaven (Hebrews 12:22, Galatians 4:26), and Christians become citizens of New Jerusalem through their faith in the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28).

And in the future, New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), will indeed descend from heaven to a new earth (Revelation 21:1-3). So the citizenship of Christians will then be on the new earth. But note that even before the time of the new earth, at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will establish the kingdom of God physically on the earth, during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). And so at that time, the citizenship of Christians (whether Jews or Gentiles: 1 Corinthians 12:13) will also be on the present earth.

 

[Bible2+]

Douggg said in post 172:

The bible doesn't say Christ is in the flesh.

Actually, it does, and even after his resurrection into immortality (Luke 24:39).

Also, believers need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that believers won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why his tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why he still has the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For he will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of believers (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns, he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by some mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, to become trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16,17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

Douggg said in post 172:

It says Jesus Christ is come in the flesh - meaning he was born of a sinner, Mary, and is therefore human - as well as being God.

Amen.

And if original sin (Romans 5:19a) is genetic, could it be passed on only through the male "seed", so that Jesus could be conceived without original sin by being conceived without any human father (Luke 1:34-35)?

Mary conceived Jesus solely by the Holy Spirit, before she had any sexual relations with Joseph (Matthew 1:18), or with any other man, for that matter (Luke 1:34-35). It is for this reason that Jesus is the only begotten (only born) Son of God (John 3:16, Luke 1:34-35), meaning that he is the only person ever born without any human father. But he is still also the Son of David (Matthew 21:9) in the sense of his being that physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3) who is the foretold Messiah/Christ (John 7:42). So Mary must have been descended from David, or else Jesus would have no physical descent from David. Because the genealogies in Matthew and Luke are different, one passing through David's son Solomon (Matthew 1:6) and the other through David's son Nathan (Luke 3:31), the latter genealogy can be Mary's. In this case, Joseph, the husband of Mary, can be the son of Heli (Luke 3:23) in the sense of his being his son-in-law.

 

[Douggg]

Actually, it does, and even after his resurrection into immortality (Luke 24:39).

Actually it does? Do a copy and paste from the bible translation that supports your statement. What bible translation are you using that says "Christ in the flesh" for 2John1:7 and 1John4:3 ?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Doug, I think you may have misunderstood the scripture here brother.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.KJV

1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does NOT confess Jesus [acknowledging that He has come in the flesh, but would deny any of the Son’s true nature] is not of God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is now already in the world.(AMP)

Luke 24:
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.(KJV)

Luke 24:38 And He said, “Why are you troubled, and why are doubts rising in your hearts? 39 Look at [the marks in] My hands and My feet, [and see] that it is I Myself. Touch Me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.” (AMP)

Lord Jesus said that He had a flesh and bones body after His resurrection and proved that He had no spiritual body. Furthermore the Bible clearly states that anyone who denies that Lord Jesus is come in the flesh is antichrist. So what Bible translation do you use that says Lord Jesus IS NOT come in the flesh? My advice would be that you should throw that one away.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, I think you may have misunderstood the scripture here brother.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.KJV

1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does NOT confess Jesus [acknowledging that He has come in the flesh, but would deny any of the Son’s true nature] is not of God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is now already in the world.(AMP)

Luke 24:
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.(KJV)

Luke 24:38 And He said, “Why are you troubled, and why are doubts rising in your hearts? 39 Look at [the marks in] My hands and My feet, [and see] that it is I Myself. Touch Me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.” (AMP)

Lord Jesus said that He had a flesh and bones body after His resurrection and proved that He had no spiritual body. Furthermore the Bible clearly states that anyone who denies that Lord Jesus is come in the flesh is antichrist. So what Bible translation do you use that says Lord Jesus IS NOT come in the flesh? My advice would be that you should throw that one away.

I think there is a mis-communication issue here, maybe. I am just objecting to bible2's misquoting of the bible. bible2 is saying "Christ is in the flesh" referring to 2John1:7 and 1John4:3. But bible 2 is leaving out the "come" in those verses. Leaving out the "come" changes the meaning. The text states....

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. KJV

It makes a big difference to say "Christ is in the flesh" rather than "Christ is come in the flesh". Christ is not in our flesh, but in our hearts (not literal hearts, but our soul).

It's debatable what "Christ is come in the flesh" means. But it is not appropriate to misquote the passage as bible2 has and build a theory based on a misquote.

 

[Douggg]

.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I think there is a mis-communication issue here, maybe. I am just objecting to bible2's misquoting of the bible. bible2 is saying "Christ is in the flesh" referring to 2John1:7 and 1John4:3. But bible 2 is leaving out the "come" in those verses. Leaving out the "come" changes the meaning. The text states....

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. KJV

It makes a big difference to say "Christ is in the flesh" rather than "Christ is come in the flesh". Christ is not in our flesh, but in our hearts (not literal hearts, but our soul).

It's debatable what "Christ is come in the flesh" means. But it is not appropriate to misquote the passage as bible2 has and build a theory based on a misquote.

Oh, OK. Gotcha!

 

[tranquil]

I agree ... That is possible




I agree it's possible



The Assyrian is allowed to rise up to punish gods enemies for crimes committed against his people ... He is commission .

.. You should throw out the word apostasy ... For by then the world will have fallen away in apostate conserning the faith ...

Keep in mind the setting of the rise of the white horse takes place "after" the false messianic age... That rabbinic Judaism messiah will have been well established first ...which will raise some questions I suppose



I don't know what will play out in the world that will cumulate to the establishment of the messianic age and 10 kings .... But that has to play out first ...so the final antichrist will not be a Muslim



Not sure what you mean .. Who are the faithful and unfaithful?

The faithful are those that flee when they see the abomination statue. The unfaithful stay in "Jerusalem" and are subsequently taken over by "Gentiles"/ non Christians. The faithful are gathered in the wilderness where they had to flee to.

In our US analogy, let's say Trump gets assassinated (as the news propaganda is preparing us for this event) and heals from his mortal head wound. This would cause a major rift in US politics, a civil war between Republicans and Democrats. The economy is in shattered pieces, Putin comes in with the new banking system, a digital banking system with a microchip.

Let's say that this happens before the elections in November.
Republicans would rally around their martyred candidate. If the nation were suffering from other major disasters at the same time, the economy would be ruined, possibly going into martial law. The 10 FEMA governors could conceivably just make Trump our president by appointment instead of election, thus making him not a "real" president.

Putin along with the UN, in charge due to wielding economic might, could come in and co-rule in some manner with the martial law US run by the illegitimate candidate turned president. Putin would appeal to the socialist left and Trump would appeal to the fascist right - the worst of both worlds, but would have enough air of legitamacy to pull it off.

The faithful would be those that would still fight for freedom and US values, which potentially appeals to certain people of any political ideal in the US. Not all Democrats endorse Communist dictatorships, and not all Republicans would endorse a Hitler style fascism. So, these 2 groups could find a common ground. Just like the Trump / Putin combo finds a common ground following. But these 2 pairs would be diametrically opposed.