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Why does God allow us to suffer?
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If no one is prepared to define it or explain how it differs from wishful thinking, then I have no other choice.
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I think I do, which is what I am unhappy to see..
And can you see that this provides no certainty, even as a hypothetical?
You say:
"If they dont understand then it doesnt matter, because trying to make them understand is still just as futile. You can try, maybe some will understand, but in the end if they dont understand then its not required to prove anything. In that way we are free from needing to prove anything. IOW, why fret about it, if its futile anyway? Does it change what i know is true, if others dont see it? No"
Now you are saying that from your confident belief, which you rate as sure knowledge, in Christianity.
You may be correct in that belief... I'm not out to or about to disprove it.
But I know of at least two other major groups, strands of faith and belief where sincere individuals can also say precisely
"If they dont understand then it doesnt matter...." "Does it change what i know is true, if others dont see it? No."
So a Hindu goes to his or her corner confident in the truth of their sure spiritual knowledge, a Muslim goes to his or her corner confident in their sure spiritual knowledge, and me, who does not think there is such a thing as sure spiritual knowledge, *however sure and solid it may feel, and I've been there*, can see a hardening of positions, and a shutting down of the ability to understand other human beings who happen to trust different beliefs.
Does it change "what I know to be true" if others don't see it? Not until there is a realisation that "What I know to be true" is not absolutely sure and certain knowledge. Applies to all. There isn't a belief on this planet in this area which isn't disagreed with by the majority of the planet. (That "God exists" breaks down from a majority as soon as the nature and character of the deity begin to be specified.)
An argument for belief of "I know" fits several different faiths equally well.
But you seem unable to see that.
If you have no glimmer of that then yes, I see little to no hope.
The Christian can say "I know" and close discussion and communication.
The Hindu can say "I know" and close discussion and communication.
The Muslim can say say "I know" and close discussion and communication.
And each will think the others blind and lacking in spiritual wisdom.
The horror, the horror...
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Look at science, for example.
Futile? I am in my 88th year. And in very good health. This would be unheard of a few centuries ago. Why the change? Man's wisdom. I profit from the advances made in medicine, in agriculture, in education, in public health, etc.
No god required, thank you.
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Extraneous
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Mankind lived without science for a long time and he could still live without it. People lived 88 years before science. It was only mankind's foolishness that caused him to die early. Science actually makes a mess of things. You seem to worship science, as if Its mankind savior, but i disagree. Science creates things like GMO's, biological and chemical destruction, nuclear contamination, processed food, industrial pollution, and many other such things.
Im not saying we must go back to the stone age, but i think mankind is blinded to the destructive effects of science. YOu act like its been such a great blessing, but in reality we are only destroying ourselves more.
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Of course He does. Do you not think the Christians in Mosul Iraq who ISIS raped, brutalized and beheaded last year did not suffer?
Have you ever seen Richard Wurmbrand's book "Tortured for Christ?"
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I have read all your posts back to October. The only ones on this thread are on this page.
You have said "Why does God allow us to suffer? He doesn't."
Is that the post you are referring to?
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Yes, it seems an unlikely perspective much in need of explaining to me, too.
As an atheist I'd take it that as there is clearly suffering in the world,
(unless we are going for a whole-hearted assertion of Maya)
then if God is not allowing it, then that works only because God does not exist.
But as this is coming from a Christian this reading seems unlikely in the extreme.
What's left?
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My guess is that he/she will say 'we make ourselves suffer'. Like 'you send yourself to hell'.
It's the default position for those not comfortable with the implications of suffering under an Omni-everything god.
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You're very welcome to live without any science at all. There are still primary societies in existence, who are living effectively stone age lives. Would you choose that?
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Extraneous
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See, this is why talking to you and other Atheists just gets tiresome. I never said i wanted to live without any science at all, hence my reference to not returning to the stone ages. You wear me out friend.
However, if i had to go without science, i could do it i suppose. Living like that Amish wouldn't really bother me. To be connected to the land like that would actually be a blessing i think. I dislike city living anymore.
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You wear me out friend.
However, if i had to go without science, i could do it i suppose. Living like that Amish wouldn't really bother me. To be connected to the land like that would actually be a blessing i think. I dislike city living anymore.
Sorry
Meantime, I live a somewhat Amish life myself. At least, I don't have many labour saving technologies. No dishwasher, no air-conditioning, no clothes dryer, no vacuum cleaner, etc. I make our bread, our yogurt, our icecream, all our snack foods/cakes/cookies etc, and grow our eggs, fruit, and vegetables. We produce our own electricity and collect our own water (via rooftop). We use wood for heating and shade for cooling. We engage in barter and community self-sufficiency - reciprocally doing work for each other, or for those in need.
I can attest to this life being about 1000 times better than an on-grid city life, where we depend on complex and costly infrastructures to even function for a single day.
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