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Creation scientists - do they exist?

SteveB28

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Also known as "common sense."

No, there is nothing sensible here. Only your inability to recognise evidence.

We don't see it happening;

Wrong. It has been observed in the lab and in the field.

we have no idea how it could happen:

Wrong. We have an extremely well developed explanation.

we don't even know that it has happened;

Wrong again. We have a record of it occurring.

statistical probabilities against it happening are so ludicrously high that for it not to happen would, with a little"common sense" easily be the logical conclusion.

Wrong. How do you calculate those probabilities?

You should watch Dr Menton's "Evolution: Not a Chance" for just a little bit of enlightenment on this aspect of the argument. Oh, I forgot, Dr Menton can't be trusted can he (according to previous posts)?

Enlightenment, or a dark shroud?
 
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Hoghead1

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You are overlooking some crucial points, NotByChance. The scientific work that Menton does and did has absolutely nothing to do with creation science or evolution. I wouldn't waste time on his videos. I've seen enough creation-science propaganda to know it is totally bogus science. The other point you are overlooking is how academia works in science and otherwise. It's sort of a legalistic model. Everyone is making their case and taking it to court. t what's wrong with your material and tear down your arguments. In this hypercritical analytical world, if something gets accepted into the mainstream, it had to pass probably more critical reviewers than were necessary and probably is over-defended. As me how I know. Evolution is in mainstream science because it has presented more than enough evidence. When someone like Menton puts out a video with the unscientific title of "Evolution: Not a Chance," it is no wonder academics such as myself won't take him seriously. Because of the pressures of academia, more than one academic has left, looking for a position where you are free of this hypercritical attitude. That's what Menton did.
 
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The Cadet

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Oh, I forgot, Dr Menton can't be trusted can he (according to previous posts)?
No, he can't. He's been caught lying (and yes, there is no way around this, it was definitely a lie) about Tiktaalik, his academic credentials are indicative of academic dead wood and thoroughly unimpressive, and his arguments are trivially bogus, as the person who posted that lovely Living Dinosaur video earlier showed.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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Wrong. It has been observed in the lab and in the field.
Are you serious? Show me the evidence (and please, not the discredited Miller-Urey stuff). I want to see someone taking some chemicals and creating something that can actually said to be alive. If you can also show how such life could then reproduce itself, I might believe your claims. If you can't, then as far as I'm concerned, it remains a fairy tale.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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Because of the pressures of academia, more than one academic has left, looking for a position where you are free of this hypercritical attitude.
Or perhaps, he wanted to be free of the constraints of imposed man-made ideas because he felt they made no sense to his practical observations.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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The scientific work that Menton does and did has absolutely nothing to do with creation science or evolution.
It's funny you should say that because all we keep hearing is that scientists who reject evolution cannot do real science. Thanks for confirming that oft-quoted fallacy.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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Evolution is in mainstream science because it has presented more than enough evidence.
I didn't see much "evidence" being presented by Bill Nye in the debate with Ken Ham. Also, it's not just about the evidence but how you interpret the evidence. If you start out with ruling out God, it's no wonder that you will come to different conclusions than someone who sees the divine hand in created things. Once a majority view has been established, not many would want to admit that they have different ideas, as careers can be put at risk or at the very least, doubters would be ridiculed by the majority.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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You are forcing a level playing field without reason for doing so.
Every argument deserves a "level playing field." Otherwise, how can you possibly have an unbiased result?

Creationism isn't on equal ground with evolution,
No, creation makes a lot more sense.

This is like trying to promote the idea that the moon is made out of cheese as if it is equally probable to the idea that the moon is made out of rock and dust, even though we have brought back pieces of the moon and thus know it is not cheese!
Why use this argument when you could have used the simpler and equally irrelevant argument about the earth being flat?
 
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The Cadet

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Or perhaps, he wanted to be free of the constraints of imposed man-made ideas because he felt they made no sense to his practical observations.

But that's a terrible reason to leave academia. You may not have noticed (I don't reckon you follow the peer-reviewed literature) but the most meaningful and important papers are ones that challenge our conceptions, and provide a new way of looking at the world. Koonin's most famous work seriously challenged a lot of ideas held within the theory, and did much to drive the science forward. If Menton was truly interested in challenging the paradigm, there's no reason he shouldn't have stayed in academia. Of course, academia has slightly more stringent fact-checking than AiG, and if he had tried to publish his absurd piece on Tiktaalik in Science or Nature or Cell he would have been laughed out of the room and possibly blacklisted for how outright dishonest it was.

It's funny you should say that because all we keep hearing is that scientists who reject evolution cannot do real science. Thanks for confirming that oft-quoted fallacy.

It's a bit like saying "mechanics who don't know how to change a car oil filter can't be real mechanics." My buddy Ulli couldn't do that and he's an incredible mechanic. It's just that he doesn't work with cars, he works with large automated assembly-line machines. By a similar token, I don't expect any young earth creationist to be a good biologist. It's just not really possible, unless their work in the peer-reviewed literature is fundamentally opposed to their work in the creationist literature, like with Andrew Snelling. They could probably be perfectly good computer scientists, though, right up until someone asks them to design an evolutionary algorithm.

Every argument deserves a "level playing field." Otherwise, how can you possibly have an unbiased result?

Do you think the playing field was so "biased" 150 years ago, when Darwin first proposed his theory? Well, actually, yes, it was. Just in the opposite direction. Darwin had to overcome not just scientific inertia, which is both real and rather important to the method (an idea supported by decades of research should not be immediately discarded at the first anomalous result!), but also significant religious bias, from people disgusted by the idea that they could be anything but created in their current form by an omnipotent deity. What you seem to asking for is that we reset the scoreboard after 150 years and pretend none of it ever happened. But even if we did that, guess what: the evidence for evolution is as strong as it ever was.
 
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The Cadet

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Every argument deserves a "level playing field."
Also: no, they don't. If I believe the earth is flat, I do not deserve equal time on the stage with a PhD astrophysicist. -_-
 
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Not_By_Chance

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if there exists a supernatural being with unlimited power, how can any experiment be considered "verified"?
How can it be without a supernatural force, in keeping with the attributes of the God of the Bible, upholding the very laws of nature? Why, without God, you don't even know if the chemicals in your brain are giving you the true picture of reality.
 
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The Cadet

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How can it be without a supernatural force, in keeping with the attributes of the God of the Bible, upholding the very laws of nature?
How nature retains its consistency is not relevant to the fact that it is, by all available observation, consistent. But congratulations on completely dodging the question.

Why, without God, you don't even know if the chemicals in your brain are giving you the true picture of reality.
God doesn't help you on that one either. Even if you assume God is real, all you've done is add a second layer - now you have to trust your senses, and you have to trust God.

But again, you haven't answered or addressed the question at all. You've brought up a god of the gaps argument to try to explain a red herring, and then appealed to hard solipsism to try to make a completely unrelated case. Y'wanna try again? If a supernatural being can meddle with the results of my experiments at will, how can I ever claim a conclusive result on my test? How does empiricism function if the laws of nature can be changed at a whim?
 
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PsychoSarah

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Every argument deserves a "level playing field." Otherwise, how can you possibly have an unbiased result?
That is completely incorrect. What you fail to acknowledge is that there is no objective evidence for creationism, and more than a century of evidence gathered that supports evolution. You are treating both as if they are theories of equal merit, but creationism isn't even on the level of a hypothesis (as it is not testable or capable of being disproven; both are negative traits). Should I consider the possibility that the creator of the universe is a giant Russian tortoise with rabbit ears and tiger claws equal to the probability of your ideal of a deity doing it? If you say no, then you are biased, because both of those possibilities are on equal footing, and have the same amount of evidence supporting them. The bible does not count as objective evidence, all religious texts purport to be true.

Honestly, this debate shouldn't even exist. If it weren't for tradition, indoctrination, and just the long amount of time creationism as a concept has existed, no one would defend that position.

No, creation makes a lot more sense.
In your opinion. Also, "making sense to you" is not a prerequisite for something to be right. In my opinion, the various, weird flaws in nature make no sense from a creationist perspective. For example, why do humans have vestigial, useless remnants of a third eyelid at the corner of our eyes? From an evolutionary perspective, it makes perfect sense; the need for a third eyelid was lost, a mutation occurred that reduced the structure, and it spread throughout the population of one of our ancestral species, but the mutation didn't remove it entirely. But, from a creationist perspective, vestigial structures of any kind should not exist. What "perfect" design has structures that do nothing but take up resources? Nature makes mistakes, but many creationists practically brag about how "perfect" their creator is. You can't even pawn these structures off as some punishment for the fall, because they don't really hurt us either.

Why use this argument when you could have used the simpler and equally irrelevant argument about the earth being flat?
It was the first idea to come to mind, and some creationists are flat earthers, so I don't need to risk distraction in the conversation for the sake of a comparison.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Using mathematics and what is known about the composition of life.
Math doesn't work well when you start trying to calculate the probability of life existing, just because of all the unknown variables and the sheer size of our universe.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Are you serious? Show me the evidence (and please, not the discredited Miller-Urey stuff). I want to see someone taking some chemicals and creating something that can actually said to be alive. If you can also show how such life could then reproduce itself, I might believe your claims. If you can't, then as far as I'm concerned, it remains a fairy tale.
What you are literally asking for would be evidence in support of creationism more than evolution. Also, evolution and abiogenesis are separate from each other, and the legitimacy of one has nothing to do with that of the other.
 
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PsychoSarah

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To make such bold statements as...
"Wrong. It has been observed in the lab and in the field.
Wrong. We have an extremely well developed explanation.
Wrong again. We have a record of it occurring."
...requires evidence to back up such astounding claims. Otherwise, these statements are a complete falsehood. I'm pretty sure that if such claims were actually true, it would have been trumpeted around the world by every available means under the sun. Even the creation websites would have headlines such as "Scientists have made an astonishing discovery - They have fathomed out how God could have created the first life" If I'm wrong, let's see the proof. I'm sure we're all dying to see it.
Creation websites don't make money by advertising the competition. Additionally, Google search be your friend, you could look this stuff up and see for yourself rather than ask us to try to track down the specific sources we were referring to.

Also, proof is for math, not science. Evidence is for science.

Also, pretty sure the boldest claim is that a deity for which there is no evidence made everything.
 
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PsychoSarah

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No, I believe because I don't see anything to convince me that the reverse is true. We all base our assumptions on our personal experiences and I've not seen any evidence whatsoever of how life could come about from lifeless chemicals and then organise itself to start reproducing before it dies out again. The workings of the living cell are so complex that man, despite his vast knowledge and intelligence, plus a working model to observe, cannot come close to making such a structure. And yet you want me to believe that chemicals, without anything to guide them, could organise all this on their own. You want me to believe that the universe just popped into existence out of nothing and then became what we see today. I'm sorry, but I don't have that much faith in what to me, seem like completely absurd notions.
Just wanted to clarify, the Big Bang theory doesn't state that the universe came from nothing. It came from a singularity expanding out. Weirdly, within the universe, even "nothing" has properties too, isn't that strange?
 
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Not_By_Chance

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Creation websites don't make money by advertising the competition. Additionally, Google search be your friend, you could look this stuff up and see for yourself rather than ask us to try to track down the specific sources we were referring to.

Also, proof is for math, not science. Evidence is for science.

Also, pretty sure the boldest claim is that a deity for which there is no evidence made everything.
Nope, the really bold statement has been made, so it's up to that person to show the rest of us where it came from. Also, I thought mathematics was one of the sciences - I'm pretty sure it is regarded as such here in the UK.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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Just wanted to clarify, the Big Bang theory doesn't state that the universe came from nothing. It came from a singularity expanding out. Weirdly, within the universe, even "nothing" has properties too, isn't that strange?
A "singularity" isn't nothing. I want to know where the singularity came from.
 
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