Does Science Agree With the Bible?

[The Cadet]

I'm not willing to challenge mine, but that's because I've walked 31 years with Jesus, I've heard how the Bible provides a reasonable explanation for the way things are, and I know He's true without a shadow of a doubt. I will never deny Him, even if someone threatens to behead me.

Well, that's interesting, but I don't see any particular value in continuing. My assumptions are always up for questioning, because I recognize that they are fallible - and due to the Münchhausen trilemma, they must necessarily either be circular, infintely-regressing, or fallible (so, basically, flawed, flawed, or potentially flawed). What I don't understand is how you can consider yours so infallible.

How do you explain the fact that people wear clothes?

I'm not sure why this really needs a big explanation. Humans have very soft skin and very little in terms of protection. Walk through a blackberry patch or the snow without pants on and you'll see why clothes are so ubiquitous.

How do you explain the seven day week?

A completely arbitrary distinction imparted, largely, on the basis of religious beliefs. It's perhaps notable that the 7-day week is not universal. The reason the week is so popular has largely to do with the abrahamic religions essentially conquering the world.

How do explain the presence of comets "millions of years" (or billions) when every time they pass the sun, they shrink?

PRATT.

http://thenaturalhistorian.com/2014...hrinking-comet-and-the-age-of-the-universe-2/

And of course, no individual comet has to necessarily be millions or billions of years old. It's enough for them to be regularly replenished... Which they are.

How do you explain a universe when the earth would have been inside the sun at the rate it is burning today?

Yeah, I have literally no idea what this means. The earth would have been inside the sun...? At what point? How? Why? Given the current cosmological model for the formation of the solar system, I'm afraid you've totally lost me.

How do you explain the information influx needed to make incredibly complex biological systems with inter-dependent features?

Ever seen Boxcar2D? Boxcar2D uses a simple algorithm to emulate the evolutionary process. At no point is information artificially injected into the algorithm, and yet somehow we go from a mess of wheels and polygons to a car. And not just any car, but a car specifically suited for the track it is on (if you try it with different tracks, you end up with different cars).

That said, if you're talking about "information" as though it is an actual thing, rather than a mathematical construct we interpret into objects, then I'm afraid you may be a bit confused.

 

[Luke17:37]

29 tests that evolution has passed:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/



If you are truly seeking the truth, would you believe in stories written in books that aren't supported by evidence?

Evidence, hmm. A person's starting point determines how they interpret the evidence.

Can you name anything specific? Have you ever studied the Bible to try to determine if it makes a good case for the world we see? I'm not talking about atheist websites that bash it. I'm talking about a legitimate search to see if it could be true. If you haven't, you either aren't interested in the possibility that it could be true or you are just lazy.

The Bible was written down during a period of about 2,000 years by about 40 human authors (the Holy Spirit guiding them). Have you ever met 40 men from different cultures and countries who agree on everything? I haven't either. But the Bible never contradicts itself (supposed contradictions, when studied diligently, fall away).

If you were going to start your own religion, would you include all your deepest personal failings? The serious sins of men are reported as is. If they were just doing their own thing, I'm sure we wouldn't hear about Adam's sin and blaming, Noah's drunkenness, Abraham's lack of faith hiding twice behind his wife, Isaac doing the same thing as his father, Jacob's deceit, Judah's prostitution, Moses' excuses and temper, Aaron's idolatry, David's adultery/murder, Jonah's rebellion against God's command, etc. But these are normal people, and though many of them walked faithfully with God for the most part, they are still lawbreakers in the sight of God. That's why Jesus came, to judge sin and extend grace to wicked people simultaneously.

If you were going to examine the Book of Mormon, a legitimate search would show you that it doesn't square with archeology (they teach that there was formerly a huge civilization built in the land America). If you were going to examine the Qur'an, you'd find it wasn't recorded or copied with integrity, different copies were forcibly destroyed, and it is blatantly wrong about supposed scientific truth (example: it says humans develop bones first and then these are wrapped in flesh). (Just read about this in Nabeel Qureshi's book, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus.)

If the Bible is divinely inspired, you would expect to no contradictions, no errors in history (archeology disproving something, for example) or science (I'm talking about testable, repeatable operational science, not origins theories), reasonable evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, and people's lives to be changed by their relationship with the Word of God (it's one of Jesus' names, actually, and not just the written Word). If you honestly search for it, that is exactly what you will find.

 

[Luke17:37]

You stopped a bit prematurely. We can also gather evidence that the past events produced, and then use that evidence to test our hypotheses. Perhaps you have heard of this. It is called the scientific method.



What would you have to see? What characteristics would a geologic formation need to have in order to falsify a recent global flood? What features would a fossil need in order to falsify separate creation events?

Or is this a case of a dogmatic belief, where no evidence will ever change your mind?



I think we would all suggest that you use a real scientific resource, not a creationist webpage that is full of misinformation.

Suit yourself.

 

[Luke17:37]

Well, that's interesting, but I don't see any particular value in continuing. My assumptions are always up for questioning, because I recognize that they are fallible - and due to the Münchhausen trilemma, they must necessarily either be circular, infintely-regressing, or fallible (so, basically, flawed, flawed, or potentially flawed). What I don't understand is how you can consider yours so infallible.



I'm not sure why this really needs a big explanation. Humans have very soft skin and very little in terms of protection. Walk through a blackberry patch or the snow without pants on and you'll see why clothes are so ubiquitous.



A completely arbitrary distinction imparted, largely, on the basis of religious beliefs. It's perhaps notable that the 7-day week is not universal. The reason the week is so popular has largely to do with the abrahamic religions essentially conquering the world.



PRATT.

http://thenaturalhistorian.com/2014...hrinking-comet-and-the-age-of-the-universe-2/

And of course, no individual comet has to necessarily be millions or billions of years old. It's enough for them to be regularly replenished... Which they are.



Yeah, I have literally no idea what this means. The earth would have been inside the sun...? At what point? How? Why? Given the current cosmological model for the formation of the solar system, I'm afraid you've totally lost me.



Ever seen Boxcar2D? Boxcar2D uses a simple algorithm to emulate the evolutionary process. At no point is information artificially injected into the algorithm, and yet somehow we go from a mess of wheels and polygons to a car. And not just any car, but a car specifically suited for the track it is on (if you try it with different tracks, you end up with different cars).

That said, if you're talking about "information" as though it is an actual thing, rather than a mathematical construct we interpret into objects, then I'm afraid you may be a bit confused.

Let's just agree not to waste any more of each other's time.

 

[Loudmouth]

Evidence, hmm. A person's starting point determines how they interpret the evidence.

That isn't how it works. You start with a hypothesis, and THEN you see if the evidence matches the hypothesis. Your hypothesis isn't involved in interpreting the evidence.

The problem is that you start with the conclusion. You then ignore any and all evidence that contradicts your conclusion. That's the wrong way of doing things.

Can you name anything specific?

I started a thread on the ERV evidence recently, if you want to discuss it.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/erv-evidence-1-species-distrubution.7927435/

Have you ever studied the Bible to try to determine if it makes a good case for the world we see? I'm not talking about atheist websites that bash it. I'm talking about a legitimate search to see if it could be true. If you haven't, you either aren't interested in the possibility that it could be true or you are just lazy.

I have studied creationism for quite a while. It has failed spectacularly.

The Bible was written down during a period of about 2,000 years by about 40 human authors (the Holy Spirit guiding them). Have you ever met 40 men from different cultures and countries who agree on everything? I haven't either. But the Bible never contradicts itself (supposed contradictions, when studied diligently, fall away).

I think it is plain to see that you would deny any contradictions if they were real.

If you were going to start your own religion, would you include all your deepest personal failings? The serious sins of men are reported as is. If they were just doing their own thing, I'm sure we wouldn't hear about Adam's sin and blaming, Noah's drunkenness, Abraham's lack of faith hiding twice behind his wife, Isaac doing the same thing as his father, Jacob's deceit, Judah's prostitution, Moses' excuses and temper, Aaron's idolatry, David's adultery/murder, Jonah's rebellion against God's command, etc. But these are normal people, and though many of them walked faithfully with God for the most part, they are still lawbreakers in the sight of God. That's why Jesus came, to judge sin and extend grace to wicked people simultaneously.

If you were going to examine the Book of Mormon, a legitimate search would show you that it doesn't square with archeology (they teach that there was formerly a huge civilization built in the land America). If you were going to examine the Qur'an, you'd find it wasn't recorded or copied with integrity, different copies were forcibly destroyed, and it is blatantly wrong about supposed scientific truth (example: it says humans develop bones first and then these are wrapped in flesh). (Just read about this in Nabeel Qureshi's book, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus.)

If the Bible is divinely inspired, you would expect to no contradictions, no errors in history (archeology disproving something, for example) or science (I'm talking about testable, repeatable operational science, not origins theories), reasonable evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, and people's lives to be changed by their relationship with the Word of God (it's one of Jesus' names, actually, and not just the written Word). If you honestly search for it, that is exactly what you will find.

My questions from before still stand.

What characteristics would a geologic formation need to have in order to falsify a recent global flood? What features would a fossil need in order to falsify separate creation events?

 

[Loudmouth]

Suit yourself.

If there is a crime with no eyewitnesses, can we use evidence at the crime scene to determine what happened, and to determine guilt or innocence?

 

[The Cadet]

Let's just agree not to waste any more of each other's time.

Oh, one quick question before I go...

But the Bible never contradicts itself (supposed contradictions, when studied diligently, fall away).

Who bought the potter's field?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Bible was written down during a period of about 2,000 years by about 40 human authors (the Holy Spirit guiding them). Have you ever met 40 men from different cultures and countries who agree on everything? I haven't either. But the Bible never contradicts itself (supposed contradictions, when studied diligently, fall away).

That is not correct. There are hundreds of obvious contradictions that cause literalists to jump through all sorts of hoops. Their mental gymnastics do not impress someone that can think rationally.

If you were going to start your own religion, would you include all your deepest personal failings? The serious sins of men are reported as is. If they were just doing their own thing, I'm sure we wouldn't hear about Adam's sin and blaming, Noah's drunkenness, Abraham's lack of faith hiding twice behind his wife, Isaac doing the same thing as his father, Jacob's deceit, Judah's prostitution, Moses' excuses and temper, Aaron's idolatry, David's adultery/murder, Jonah's rebellion against God's command, etc. But these are normal people, and though many of them walked faithfully with God for the most part, they are still lawbreakers in the sight of God. That's why Jesus came, to judge sin and extend grace to wicked people simultaneously.

Sure, why not? No one is perfect and it makes the religion more appealing if people think that there is some sort of redemption. That is not a plus for Christianity. Other religions have very similar stories.

If you were going to examine the Book of Mormon, a legitimate search would show you that it doesn't square with archeology (they teach that there was formerly a huge civilization built in the land America). If you were going to examine the Qur'an, you'd find it wasn't recorded or copied with integrity, different copies were forcibly destroyed, and it is blatantly wrong about supposed scientific truth (example: it says humans develop bones first and then these are wrapped in flesh). (Just read about this in Nabeel Qureshi's book, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus.)

And the same applies to the Bible. Neither Genesis nor Exodus square with either science or archaeology. Their would have been on the order of 4 million people leaving Egypt and yet there is no evidence that they were ever there or ever left. The fact that archaeologists cannot find evidence of the Exodus has convinced them that it did not happen:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus

"Despite being regarded in Judaism as the primary factual historical narrative of the origin of the religion, culture and ethnicity, Exodus is now accepted by scholars as having been compiled in the 8th–7th centuries BCE from stories dating possibly as far back as the 13th century BCE, with further polishing in the 6th–5th centuries BCE, as a theological and political manifesto to unite the Israelites in the then‐current battle for territory against Egypt.[3]"

If the Bible is divinely inspired, you would expect to no contradictions, no errors in history (archeology disproving something, for example) or science (I'm talking about testable, repeatable operational science, not origins theories), reasonable evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, and people's lives to be changed by their relationship with the Word of God (it's one of Jesus' names, actually, and not just the written Word). If you honestly search for it, that is exactly what you will find.

So you are admitting that the Bible is not divinely inspired since it has none of those traits.

By the way, it appears that you have no understanding of how science is done. An idea, such as the theory of evolution, does not become a theory until it has been successfully tested many many times. It seems that you don't even know how testing is done in science. People here can help you with that.

ETA: Here is a site that you can go to for hours of fun. It graphically depicts the hundreds of self contradictions in the Bible:

http://bibviz.com/

 

[AV1611VET]

That is not correct. There are hundreds of obvious contradictions that cause literalists to jump through all sorts of hoops. Their mental gymnastics do not impress someone that can think rationally.

Have you ever noticed though that even the clear-cut passages of Scripture are denied by rationalists?

They won't ask questions about those though, because they want to hide their outright denial of Scripture behind a veil of being fed second-rate exegeses.

When I first came here, I noticed most people wouldn't ask questions that could be answered by a simple verse or two.

They would ask technical questions that required basic doctrine, comparing Scripture with Scripture, rightly dividing the word of truth, and so on.

And I got the impression that many didn't even know what it was they were asking.

The Bible says it well when It compares the milk of the Word to the meat of the Word.

By way of example:

Why discuss how the trinity works with a person who doesn't believe God exists period?

 

[Loudmouth]

Have you ever noticed though that even the clear-cut passages of Scripture are denied by rationalists?

Have you ever noticed that rationalists don't assume something is true just because it is written down in a book?

 

[AV1611VET]

Have you ever noticed that rationalists don't assume something is true just because it is written down in a book?

That's fine.

But why discuss the Grand Canyon with someone, when you don't think the earth was segmented into continents by its Creator?

 

[TLK Valentine]

That's fine.

But why discuss the Grand Canyon with someone, when you don't think the earth was segmented into continents by its Creator?

Why discuss the Creator with someone when you don't think the Creator is an English Sheepdog named "Bosko"?

 

[Loudmouth]

That's fine.

But why discuss the Grand Canyon with someone, when you don't think the earth was segmented into continents by its Creator?

Why would I need to think that the Earth was segmented into continents by its creator in order to discuss the Grand Canyon?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why would I need to think that the Earth was segmented into continents by its creator in order to discuss the Grand Canyon?

Okay ... use the Flood then.

Why ask for the mechanics behind how the Grand Canyon was formed, if you don't believe the Flood was global in the first place?

Why would a person, who can barely add, ask someone to explain calculus to them?

 

[Luke17:37]

That is not correct. There are hundreds of obvious contradictions that cause literalists to jump through all sorts of hoops. Their mental gymnastics do not impress someone that can think rationally.



Sure, why not? No one is perfect and it makes the religion more appealing if people think that there is some sort of redemption. That is not a plus for Christianity. Other religions have very similar stories.



And the same applies to the Bible. Neither Genesis nor Exodus square with either science or archaeology. Their would have been on the order of 4 million people leaving Egypt and yet there is no evidence that they were ever there or ever left. The fact that archaeologists cannot find evidence of the Exodus has convinced them that it did not happen:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus

"Despite being regarded in Judaism as the primary factual historical narrative of the origin of the religion, culture and ethnicity, Exodus is now accepted by scholars as having been compiled in the 8th–7th centuries BCE from stories dating possibly as far back as the 13th century BCE, with further polishing in the 6th–5th centuries BCE, as a theological and political manifesto to unite the Israelites in the then‐current battle for territory against Egypt.[3]"



So you are admitting that the Bible is not divinely inspired since it has none of those traits.

By the way, it appears that you have no understanding of how science is done. An idea, such as the theory of evolution, does not become a theory until it has been successfully tested many many times. It seems that you don't even know how testing is done in science. People here can help you with that.

ETA: Here is a site that you can go to for hours of fun. It graphically depicts the hundreds of self contradictions in the Bible:

http://bibviz.com/

I'm only going to say one thing. There's a documentary on Netflix to address to Exodus question:

Patterns of Evidence: Exodus
http://m.imdb.com/title/tt3464018/

Egypt probably wouldn't want to agree to the history of the Exodus, although perhaps they care less today. The country was all but destroyed from the ten plagues, and then when the Egyptians pursued Israel through the Red Sea, the Pharaoh and his entire army on chariots perished. The other nations heard about it and trembled, even forty years later when Israel finally began to conquer Canaan.

I really don't get the sense that you care about truth if truth is Biblical. No point in wasting each other's time.

What are you doing on Christian Forums anyway? Just here to try to destroy as many people's faith as you can? Yeah, I thought so. You are deceived. Satan wants you to join him some day in the lake of fire, taking as many with you as possible. But God doesn't want anyone to perish. He doesn't take pleasure in the death of anyone--and that means you, too. Good day.

 

[HitchSlap]

I'm only going to say one thing. There's a documentary on Netflix to address to Exodus question:

Patterns of Evidence: Exodus
http://m.imdb.com/title/tt3464018/

Egypt probably wouldn't want to agree to the history of the Exodus, although perhaps they care less today. The country was all but destroyed from the ten plagues, and then when the Egyptians pursued Israel through the Red Sea, the Pharaoh and his entire army on chariots perished. The other nations heard about it and trembled, even forty years later when Israel finally began to conquer Canaan.

I really don't get the sense that you care about truth if truth is Biblical. No point in wasting each other's time.

What are you doing on Christian Forums anyway? Just here to try to destroy as many people's faith as you can? Yeah, I thought so. You are deceived. Satan wants you to join him some day in the lake of fire, taking as many with you as possible. But God doesn't want anyone to perish. He doesn't take pleasure in the death of anyone--and that means you, too. Good day.

I care about the truth, and the truth is, there's zero archaeological evidence to support a literal Exodus story. Nada.

 

[Luke17:37]

I care about the truth, and the truth is, there's zero archaeological evidence to support a literal Exodus story. Nada.

I'm so impressed that you can watch a two hour movie in less than 20 minutes.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I'm only going to say one thing. There's a documentary on Netflix to address to Exodus question:

Patterns of Evidence: Exodus
http://m.imdb.com/title/tt3464018/

Egypt probably wouldn't want to agree to the history of the Exodus, although perhaps they care less today. The country was all but destroyed from the ten plagues, and then when the Egyptians pursued Israel through the Red Sea, the Pharaoh and his entire army on chariots perished. The other nations heard about it and trembled, even forty years later when Israel finally began to conquer Canaan.

Not one enemy of Egypt seized the opportunity? And if they were trembling so much, why didn't they record anything about it?

 

[Luke17:37]

Not one enemy of Egypt seized the opportunity? And if they were trembling so much, why didn't they record anything about it?

Israel conquered most of them. The movie mentions two towns specifically where the archeology matches the Biblical account.

Rahab gives us a picture of how the nations trembled. She survived because she feared God and helped the Israelite spies. She ended up being in the line of David and Jesus.

Joshua 2:8-13
8 Now before they lay down, she came up to them on the roof, 9 and said to the men: “I know that the Lord has given you the land, that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land are fainthearted because of you. 10 For we have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were on the other side of the Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. 11 And as soon as we heard these things, our hearts melted; neither did there remain any more courage in anyone because of you, for the Lord your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath. 12 Now therefore, I beg you, swear to me by the Lord, since I have shown you kindness, that you also will show kindness to my father’s house, and give me a true token, 13 and spare my father, my mother, my brothers, my sisters, and all that they have, and deliver our lives from death.”

 

[HitchSlap]

I'm so impressed that you can watch a two hour movie in less than 20 minutes.

I'm referring to actual evidence, not a silly documentary with an agenda. Maybe next I should watch the "documentary" on ancient aliens?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus