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Does Science Agree With the Bible?

The Cadet

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The mechanism used throughout history is "signs." Which, I am not sure will help.

It doesn't. I have no idea what that's even supposed to mean.

What is tangible, is of little value if any, regarding this topic.

What is tangible is the results we can directly observe and use to improve our lives. This is why science is taken seriously, and "spirituality" (which isn't even well-defined at this point) is not. Because science focuses on tangible results - things like, say, the computer you're sitting on - and spirituality scoffs at that, demanding that we accept their ideas regardless of whether they can support them, whether the ideas have any tangible value, or whether or not they are supported by evidence. Science builds civilizations while spirituality debates on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Hence why one is taken seriously.

...So...if you really want to know, that leaves you with two choices: 1) Believe, or 2) ask, and take our word for it (even if you do not believe it).

And neither of these is a good way to find the truth. How did you find this truth?
 
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Luke17:37

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You are using quotes from the Bible to support myths from the Bible. That is circular reasoning and does not support your case. If you want to claim that the Earth was made in seven days you need to find outside evidence that that happened. But as you seem to know all of the evidence out there tells us that the Earth is billions of years old and that life evolved.

Also pointing out that the Bible is wrong here and there does not make God a liar. It simply means that the Bible is wrong.
I don't need anything outside the Bible just as I don't need to prove God exists. As long as the Bible keeps proving reliable, there's no reason not to believe its straightforward statements. It is reliable. As my pastor says, "The more they dig out of the ground, the more the Bible proves to be right."

If you aren't convinced the Bible is true in everything it discusses, including prophecy, history and sciences, it can stand up to research. Why don't you do it yourself?

Sir William Ramsay took a leave of absense from teaching at Oxford to try to prove that Acts wasn't historically accurate, but he found it to be true historically to the smallest detail. He ended up committing his heart to Christ and becoming a staunch defender of the Word of God.

The Bible isn't wrong, and God isn't a liar. He says all Scripture is God-breathed, that God cannot lie, and that none of the law will pass away without being fulfilled. Jesus referred to the tense of a word to challenge the unbelief of the Sadduccees (Matthew 23:22-33). God can help you with your unbelief if you earnestly seek Him.

You can no more offer proof of evolution than I can prove creation in six days. We weren't there, and creation isn't a repeatable testable process. We either have to trust the One who was, or decide that we are going to ascribe greater authority to man than God. I am unwilling to do the latter.

That being said, the fossil record shows just what is to be expected from a worldwide flood--fossils, rock layers that appear to have formed very quickly (for example, bent rock layers, fossils standing on end and fossils crossing several rock layers).
 
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The Cadet

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As long as the Bible keeps proving reliable

Would you like to unpack the flood mythos, and go over the many reasons why it is physically impossible?

As my pastor says, "The more they dig out of the ground, the more the Bible proves to be right."

Your pastor has no clue about paleontology.
 
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Luke17:37

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Would you like to unpack the flood mythos, and go over the many reasons why it is physically impossible?



Your pastor has no clue about paleontology.

It would be easier to "prove" something to be false. In the case of the Bible, many have tried. It just hasn't been done.

The worldwide flood is not unreliable at all. We find fossils, lots of rock layers, bended rock layers, balancing fossils, fossils spanning multiple rock layers--all which suggest catastrophic, rapid burial. Natural burial over millions of years wouldn't lead to fossils - dead things would have decomposed, not been preserved.

If you appeal to the authority of man, well, I appeal to the authority of God.

You come on a place called Christian Forums and you shouldn't be surprised that some of us actually believe the Bible.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I don't need anything outside the Bible just as I don't need to prove God exists. As long as the Bible keeps proving reliable, there's no reason not to believe its straightforward statements. It is reliable. As my pastor says, "The more they dig out of the ground, the more the Bible proves to be right."

That is only because you know that you will fail. And the Bible was never reliable. Plus, your pastor was extremely deluded.

If you aren't convinced the Bible is true in everything it discusses, including prophecy, history and sciences, it can stand up to research. Why don't you do it yourself?[/qoute]

What do you mean by this nonsense?

Sir William Ramsay took a leave of absense from teaching at Oxford to try to prove that Acts wasn't historically accurate, but he found it to be true historically to the smallest detail. He ended up committing his heart to Christ and becoming a staunch defender of the Word of God.

Actually all that Ramsay could not do was to show that the geography of the author of Acts was wrong. That is a very weak basis for his beliefs.

The Bible isn't wrong, and God isn't a liar. He says all Scripture is God-breathed, that God cannot lie, and that none of the law will pass away without being fulfilled. Jesus referred to the tense of a word to challenge the unbelief of the Sadduccees (Matthew 23:22-33). God can help you with your unbelief if you earnestly seek Him.


No, the Bible is wrong time after time. I can show you where it has been shown to be wrong. It is filled with bad science, failed prophecies and bad morality. But if anyone says that God lied odds are that it is you. The Bible never declares that is is infallible and it is clearly does not say that is is God's word.

You can no more offer proof of evolution than I can prove creation in six days. We weren't there, and creation isn't a repeatable testable process. We either have to trust the One who was, or decide that we are going to ascribe greater authority to man than God. I am unwilling to do the latter.

Nope, sorry but once again that you are wrong. I have scientific evidence, you have only a book written largely by ignorant sheep herders.

That being said, the fossil record shows just what is to be expected from a worldwide flood--fossils, rock layers that appear to have formed very quickly (for example, bent rock layers, fossils standing on end and fossils crossing several rock layers).

What have you been smoking? It does not show that at all. Seriously dude, I can help you with your terrible misconceptions. People have been lying to you. You have no clue at all what the fossil record says.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It would be easier to "prove" something to be false. In the case of the Bible, many have tried. It just hasn't been done.

The worldwide flood is not unreliable at all. We find fossils, lots of rock layers, bended rock layers, balancing fossils, fossils spanning multiple rock layers--all which suggest catastrophic, rapid burial. Natural burial over millions of years wouldn't lead to fossils - dead things would have decomposed, not been preserved.

If you appeal to the authority of man, well, I appeal to the authority of God.

You come on a place called Christian Forums and you shouldn't be surprised that some of us actually believe the Bible.
Again, none of that is evidence for the flood. But the simple fact that ice floats tells us that there was no flood. Odds are you are going to have to learn a LOT of science to begin to understand this.
 
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The Cadet

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The worldwide flood is not unreliable at all. We find fossils, lots of rock layers, bended rock layers, balancing fossils, fossils spanning multiple rock layers--all which suggest catastrophic, rapid burial. Natural burial over millions of years wouldn't lead to fossils - dead things would have decomposed, not been preserved.

Just to focus on one claim: a single catastrophic flood would not produce multiple layers of sediment. It would produce one layer, filtered by grain size. This is easy to check with nothing more than an old fishtank, a hose, and various types of dirt. What's more, we should be able to find this single, thick layer of flood sediment globally in the geologic column at around 4000 years. We don't. We should be able to see evidence of it in ice cores spanning back hundreds of thousands of years. We don't.

Beyond that, it's pretty much just a list of PRATTs. Polystrate trees are a phenomenon that were explained almost a century ago, by the same scientists who discovered them. The trees were, in fact, buried rapidly. You do realize, however, that it's possible to bury something rapidly without a global, worldwide flood? Like, say, in a localized flood? Or a swamp?

Meanwhile, we also run into numerous facts that run directly contradictory to the flood mythos. For example, sedimentary rocks made up of fossilized coral, which could not possibly have been laid down rapidly, and could not have been laid down during the kind of wild flood environment creationists seem to think the flood was. Chalk beds, which, again, could not have been laid down rapidly. We can observe genetic changes in the genome of animals, and we can find genetic bottlenecks - points at which the population's genetic diversity was stretched to the breaking point. We can calculate when these happened, and oddly enough, they only occur within certain species - if the flood story is true, we would expect to see them in all species. Oh, and then we have the massive civilizations in Egypt an incredibly short amount of time after the flood, when there simply could not have been enough people to build and populate them.

Nothing here works. Absolutely nothing makes any sense about the flood story. The list of evidence we have showing that it could not possibly have happened is miles long. Unless you want to claim magic, of course, at which point you throw out any possibility of ever being able to demonstrate the truth of your claim, and you imply that God has written a colossal lie into the rocks to fool anyone who wanted to learn something about the reality around them.

If you appeal to the authority of man, well, I appeal to the authority of God.

I'm not appealing to the authority of man. I'm appealing to what you can observe for yourself. Any of the facts here are independently verifiable and testable. Seriously, go do the experiment yourself. See if a flood event produces multiple, distinct sedimentary layers. It doesn't happen.

What you're essentially saying here (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) is that if you test the bible against reality, and they give you different results, reality must be wrong. And that's just an untenable position.

You come on a place called Christian Forums and you shouldn't be surprised that some of us actually believe the Bible.

I'm not surprised. I'm just disappointed. It's 2016, and we're still explaining to people how a bronze-age myth that directly contradicts the finding of countless fields of science cannot be true. You'd think the religion would have progressed far enough for more people to say, "Yeah, you know, okay, it's an allegory, not something that actually literally happened."
 
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AV1611VET

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But the simple fact that ice floats tells us that there was no flood.
I wasn't aware there were polar ice caps and icebergs floating around before the Flood.

In fact, I am under the assumption that the earth was one tropical paradise at the time.
 
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Luke17:37

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I think the only thing that any Christians "scoff" at is the goofy notion that we should limit ourselves *exclusively* to the book of Genesis when attempting to understand the universe that we live in, and bury one's head in the sand with respect to other scientific fields of study.

It's fine to have faith that God created the heavens and the Earth, but that still doesn't tell us *when* that occurred. Most Christians look to other fields of study to figure out the when part, and to understand how nature works.

The problem with excluding every external reference point in the universe when looking to questions about our origin is that it requires one to "assume" that they, and they alone have power to "properly subjectively interpret" a couple of a passages from a single book, and they get themselves stuck in a circular feedback loop without a way out of it.

The Holy Spirit has never spoken to me and claimed "Hey Michael, the Earth is only 6K years old and you're personally required to interpret every word of Genesis literally, or else!". Give me a break.

If you consider Genesis 1-11 allegorical, what foundation do you as a Christian turn to (before Jesus came) to understand sin, death, the need for a Savior, the reason for and efficiency of a blood sacrifice, marriage, clothes or the seven day week?

I wrote this to Joshua. The Scripture is crystal clear. The real issue is God's authority versus man's authority. If God wrote this book, it is utterly trustworthy. If we reject pieces of it, it's because we think God is wrong and man is right.

The 6 literal day creation is not a myth.

Exodus 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Then the rest of Genesis 1 goes on to describe the way He did it in six days.

The days are defined very clearly.

Genesis 1:3-5
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

Also, God created the heavenly bodies on the fourth day. Notice how He discusses seasons and years:

Genesis 1:14-15
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.

If the fourth day was an indeterminately long age, what does God mean by seasons and years? Also, since the day is defined as dark and light (just like an ordinary day today), how could the plants created on day three survive the great period of darkness?

There's no Scriptural basis for taking the days of Genesis 1 any way other than literal days. The Bible just doesn't allow it, no matter what "modern" people like to say.

Also, God declared His creation very good. There was no death. People and animals were vegetarians.

In Genesis 2:17, God told Adam that if he chose to eat the fruit, he would "surely die." Adam died spiritually the moment he ate. Adam also died physically, but not immediately. An animal died, though--God shed its blood shed so He could make clothes out of its skin to cover Adam's nakedness/shame. The principle of death being the punishment for sin has never changed (Leviticus 17:11, Hebrews 9:22), and it is the reason Jesus Christ shed His blood, dying on our behalf to pay for the penalty for our sins. Also, death was a cancer to the creation. Besides affecting Adam's race, animals (sometime after the flood) stopped being vegetarian, the ground grew thorns, etc. The whole creation groans waiting for its redemption in Christ (Romans 8:19-22). When He reigns on the earth, He will undo these things (Isaiah 2, Isaiah 11, Isaiah 65, Zechariah 14, Ezekiel 47, etc.). The animals who now live in fear of being hunted will graze together and be vegetarians again.

Now think about it, if the removal of the curse will bring peace between animals and also man, then doesn't it follow (consistently) that death was never a part of God's perfect creation (although He knew it would occur)? Now, the only reason to accept long ages is to go along with conventional wisdom: evolution over millions of years. But death is the center of evolutionary biology - survival of the fittest. Millions of years of death and struggle, they preach, resulted in the world we see today. Some naturalists will overlook Christians who say, "God used evolution," but the truth is, they know (better than those Christians) that the worldviews are incompatible. God did not call a world created by death "good," and then turn around and blame Adam for what He already used. God is big enough to create things good the first time, and He didn't need millions of years. (The godless rely on millions of years, because it's the only way they can convince themselves it's possible that He doesn't exist.) If death came before sin, God is a liar and our faith is worthless.

Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar... (Romans 3:4b)
 
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ScottA

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It doesn't. I have no idea what that's even supposed to mean.

What is tangible is the results we can directly observe and use to improve our lives. This is why science is taken seriously, and "spirituality" (which isn't even well-defined at this point) is not. Because science focuses on tangible results - things like, say, the computer you're sitting on - and spirituality scoffs at that, demanding that we accept their ideas regardless of whether they can support them, whether the ideas have any tangible value, or whether or not they are supported by evidence. Science builds civilizations while spirituality debates on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Hence why one is taken seriously.

And neither of these is a good way to find the truth. How did you find this truth?
  1. Signs...HELLO...like rising from the dead. History is full of signs...and eyewitnesses.
  2. Tangible is as tangible does. It only deals with what is tangible...and that is only part of what we are talking about. The spiritual realm is quite well defined. Don't confuse your refusal to believe, your inability to perceive it (to put it politely), and what you do not know, with what is known by many. We are many.
  3. I have told you how to find this truth.
 
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dad

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Right, exactly the same as your beliefs. I am so glad that we can agree on something.
My beliefs are absolutely grounded in the word of |God. Pure unadultered lovely Scripture.
 
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dad

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Just to focus on one claim: a single catastrophic flood would not produce multiple layers of sediment. It would produce one layer, filtered by grain size.


"at the end of the Cretaceous, a large fraction of plant and animal families suddenly went extinct. In this Cretaceous-Tertiary or K-T mass extinction (K is for Kreide, meaning chalk in German, which describes the chalky sediment layer from that time; T is for Tertiary, the next geologic period), all land animals over about 55 pounds went extinct, as did many smaller organisms. "

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/glossary/K-T.shtml

Voila!
 
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Luke17:37

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Just to focus on one claim: a single catastrophic flood would not produce multiple layers of sediment. It would produce one layer, filtered by grain size. This is easy to check with nothing more than an old fishtank, a hose, and various types of dirt. What's more, we should be able to find this single, thick layer of flood sediment globally in the geologic column at around 4000 years. We don't. We should be able to see evidence of it in ice cores spanning back hundreds of thousands of years. We don't.

Beyond that, it's pretty much just a list of PRATTs. Polystrate trees are a phenomenon that were explained almost a century ago, by the same scientists who discovered them. The trees were, in fact, buried rapidly. You do realize, however, that it's possible to bury something rapidly without a global, worldwide flood? Like, say, in a localized flood? Or a swamp?

Meanwhile, we also run into numerous facts that run directly contradictory to the flood mythos. For example, sedimentary rocks made up of fossilized coral, which could not possibly have been laid down rapidly, and could not have been laid down during the kind of wild flood environment creationists seem to think the flood was. Chalk beds, which, again, could not have been laid down rapidly. We can observe genetic changes in the genome of animals, and we can find genetic bottlenecks - points at which the population's genetic diversity was stretched to the breaking point. We can calculate when these happened, and oddly enough, they only occur within certain species - if the flood story is true, we would expect to see them in all species. Oh, and then we have the massive civilizations in Egypt an incredibly short amount of time after the flood, when there simply could not have been enough people to build and populate them.

Nothing here works. Absolutely nothing makes any sense about the flood story. The list of evidence we have showing that it could not possibly have happened is miles long. Unless you want to claim magic, of course, at which point you throw out any possibility of ever being able to demonstrate the truth of your claim, and you imply that God has written a colossal lie into the rocks to fool anyone who wanted to learn something about the reality around them.



I'm not appealing to the authority of man. I'm appealing to what you can observe for yourself. Any of the facts here are independently verifiable and testable. Seriously, go do the experiment yourself. See if a flood event produces multiple, distinct sedimentary layers. It doesn't happen.

What you're essentially saying here (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) is that if you test the bible against reality, and they give you different results, reality must be wrong. And that's just an untenable position.



I'm not surprised. I'm just disappointed. It's 2016, and we're still explaining to people how a bronze-age myth that directly contradicts the finding of countless fields of science cannot be true. You'd think the religion would have progressed far enough for more people to say, "Yeah, you know, okay, it's an allegory, not something that actually literally happened."

Have you ever actually read the flood account in the Bible? Come on now. The global flood was much more than just rain. The fountains of the deep broke open--the earth's crust was torn up by water from below, and in addition, water rained from the sky for forty solid days.

You could look up Mt. St. Helens. Petrified trees are left standing on end across multiple rock layers, all formed when the volcano erupted in 1980.

I don't think you will, though.

Do you want to believe the Bible is true? I don't think you do. I think you've determined it won't be true. If it was true, you'd be accountable to your Creator. That's the real issue, isn't it? He is not a bad Creator. He is holy and very patient with people who hate Him. However, there will come a day similar to the worldwide flood when He will judge the inhabitants of the earth with fire. Because He doesn't want anyone to perish, the Lord will wait until the very last person who will believe does. The earth will be completely overrun by lawlessness by then. But He will return after that, and He will punish evildoers and reign with pure justice.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I wasn't aware there were polar ice caps and icebergs floating around before the Flood.

In fact, I am under the assumption that the earth was one tropical paradise at the time.

As you well know there was no flood. The icecaps have been there longer than man has been on the Earth. Of course you may have some trouble with this fact if you believe that God lied.
 
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The Cadet

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Signs...HELLO...like rising from the dead. History is full of signs...and eyewitnesses.

If I told you that I saw someone rise from the dead and then vanish into thin air, would you believe me? What if it was me and 5 of my friends? What if it was me writing about me and my 500 friends, and you're reading the manuscript 2000 years later? History is full of signs, but for some reason, since the era that virtually everyone has a camera on them at all times, these signs have all but completely dried up. Weird, huh?

I have told you how to find this truth.

I must have missed it.

You could look up Mt. St. Helens. Petrified trees are left standing on end across multiple rock layers, all formed when the volcano erupted in 1980.

But this isn't a flood. This is a volcanic eruption. I mean, you haven't offered any sources, so I'm not sure what the precise claim is, or what the basis for the claim is, but it doesn't really matter, because there are fairly substantial differences between a volcanic eruption and a flood event. Not all catastrophes are the same.

Do you want to believe the Bible is true? I don't think you do. I think you've determined it won't be true. If it was true, you'd be accountable to your Creator. That's the real issue, isn't it?

Yes, just like I've determined that gravity won't be true, so I don't have to be accountable to the ground. :doh: No, I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. The bible does not pass the sniff check, and accusing me of having ulterior motives is weak.

I'm not particularly interested in theology. I'm interested in science, in demonstrable reality, in things we can demonstrate.
 
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Subduction Zone

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My beliefs are absolutely grounded in the word of |God. Pure unadultered lovely Scripture.

Make up your mind. Are your beliefs grounded in the word of God or in scripture? We know that with all of the flaws that it has that scripture is not the "word of God". Is seems in reality that you are just terribly confused.
 
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ScottA

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If I told you that I saw someone rise from the dead and then vanish into thin air, would you believe me? What if it was me and 5 of my friends? What if it was me writing about me and my 500 friends, and you're reading the manuscript 2000 years later? History is full of signs, but for some reason, since the era that virtually everyone has a camera on them at all times, these signs have all but completely dried up. Weird, huh?

I must have missed it.
  1. Yes, you missed it.
  2. Yes, you missed it.
 
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Luke17:37

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If I told you that I saw someone rise from the dead and then vanish into thin air, would you believe me? What if it was me and 5 of my friends? What if it was me writing about me and my 500 friends, and you're reading the manuscript 2000 years later? History is full of signs, but for some reason, since the era that virtually everyone has a camera on them at all times, these signs have all but completely dried up. Weird, huh?



I must have missed it.



But this isn't a flood. This is a volcanic eruption. I mean, you haven't offered any sources, so I'm not sure what the precise claim is, or what the basis for the claim is, but it doesn't really matter, because there are fairly substantial differences between a volcanic eruption and a flood event. Not all catastrophes are the same.


Yes, just like I've determined that gravity won't be true, so I don't have to be accountable to the ground. :doh: No, I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. The bible does not pass the sniff check, and accusing me of having ulterior motives is weak.

I'm not particularly interested in theology. I'm interested in science, in demonstrable reality, in things we can demonstrate.

Mt. St. Helens a recent catastrophic event that involved a liquid (lava). What more do you want? If you want demonstratable science, you'll steer clear of non-testable hypotheses such as evolution.

Oh, well, that's a relief that you are open minded, not closed off to the idea of God, and that you desire truth. I commend that.

If you are truly interested in truth and seek it with all your heart, you will meet Him some day. He is Jesus, who rose from the dead on the third day. There many witnesses to His death, there was an empty tomb, no dead body, and over 500 witnesses who saw him alive at one time, many of whom were tortured to death rather than recant their faith in the risen Jesus. Many eyewitnesses were still alive when the gospels were recorded and shared. If his enemies could have produced his body, they would have. If the eyewitnesses accounts' were lies, the community (Israel) would have ripped it to shreds.
 
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As you well know there was no flood.
That's not what I heard.
Subduction Zone said:
The icecaps have been there longer than man has been on the Earth.
That's not what I heard.
Subduction Zone said:
Of course you may have some trouble with this fact if you believe that God lied.
If I believed God lied, I'd have trouble with a lot of facts.

IOW, I'd be like you guys.
 
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If I told you that I saw someone rise from the dead and then vanish into thin air, would you believe me?
No.
The Cadet said:
What if it was me and 5 of my friends?
No.
The Cadet said:
What if it was me writing about me and my 500 friends, and you're reading the manuscript 2000 years later?
A manuscript that has survived that long? written in your own handwriting?

No.
 
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