Did the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday?

[Thursday]

Here is an intelligent, short and to the point video about Sunday worship's origin.

I do not succumb to Catholic beliefs and practices. I do my best to report historical truths. My goal is to present that the foundational day of worship was established on biblical arguments made thousands of years ago.

SDA claim to use the Catechism to show what Catholics believe. Are they telling the truth about what Catholics believe? It's should obvious to them how Sunday is not kept as a 24hr Sabbath as describe in the law.

Yes, the leaders of the Catholic Church, ie. the apostles, changed the day of worship to the Lord's Day.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, the leaders of the Catholic Church, ie. the apostles, changed the day of worship to the Lord's Day.

changed the Sabbath from the 7th day -- to the first day?

One Catholic Author - of a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II describes it this way

=========================================

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

One Catholic poster on this section of the board describes it this way.

Open Heart said: ↑
It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).
I know you don't like it that we did this. That's fine.

And how does the Bible define the "Solemnity" - the blessed, sanctified and binding obligation of the Sabbath -- in actual scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

It never says the son of the foreigner keeps the Shabbat.

Until you read the text -and note that "everyone" includes the "son of the foreigner" in vs 6.


Isaiah 56
Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”


3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”


"There REMAINS therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" Heb 4.
"Worship HIM who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7
"EVERY Sabbath" they were in the synagogue preaching the Gospel to BOTH gentiles and Jews - Acts 18:1-5.
"EVERY Sabbath" scripture is read in the synagogues and this solves the problem of Acts 15 for gentiles.
"The Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 -- turns out --- that includes gentiles.

EVEN Dies Domini insists that the Sabbath commandment as with ALL the TEN commandments are for ALL MANKIND and "not just jews"

Your position opposed to both the Bible and your own Pope John Paul II - is a bit 'extreme' for a Catholic don't you think??

Dies Domini pt 11
"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown
of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."

===========================================================

This verse warns about alienating the convert.

A truly fascinating reduction and gloss-over of all the details in that post.

 

[BobRyan]

Isaiah 66:23
a. means PERPETUAL worship

Perpetual on TWO cycles - the weekly AND the monthly cycle - as stated 'in the text'

Your argument is with the details "in the text" of the Bible and with your own Dies Domini... and with your own "Faith Explained"

 

[bugkiller]

changed the Sabbath from the 7th day -- to the first day?

One Catholic Author - of a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II describes it this way

=========================================

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

One Catholic poster on this section of the board describes it this way.



And how does the Bible define the "Solemnity" - the blessed, sanctified and binding obligation of the Sabbath -- in actual scripture.

Chirstians were worshipping solely on Sunday long before the RCC came to power.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Until you read the text -and note that "everyone" includes the "son of the foreigner" in vs 6.


Isaiah 56
Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”


3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

This foreigner is one who has joined the covenant given to Israel. As such the aren't a foreigner according to Ex 12:48.

"There REMAINS therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" Heb 4.

This isn't talking about the 7th day Sabbath. The word Sabbath doesn't appear in your verse of original text.

"Worship HIM who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7

How does this reference anything about the Sabbath?

"EVERY Sabbath" they were in the synagogue preaching the Gospel to BOTH gentiles and Jews - Acts 18:1-5.

So what. It doesn't prove anything in regard to Sabbath keeping. If it did please explain why you're not attending the synagogue.

"EVERY Sabbath" scripture is read in the synagogues and this solves the problem of Acts 15 for gentiles.

How? There's no command.

"The Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 -- turns out --- that includes gentiles.

heheheheehaw!!! Why did God wait bout 5,000 years to make this announcement?

EVEN Dies Domini insists that the Sabbath commandment as with ALL the TEN commandments are for ALL MANKIND and "not just jews"

So what. I'm not RCC and they have no authority over me. Let 'em say anything they wish. Just doesn't make it true.
bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Chirstians were worshipping solely on Sunday long before the RCC came to power.
bugkiller

Is it your "tradition" to suppose that they were doing that in the first century - every week?

 

[BobRyan]

This foreigner is one who has joined the covenant given to Israel. As such the aren't a foreigner according to Ex 12:48

The ol' "foreigner is not a foreigner" fails the test of scripture in Is 56.

Because we "pay attention to the details" --

Is 56
“Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

 

[Meowzltov]

changed the Sabbath from the 7th day -- to the first day?

Now Bob, you know better than that.

 

[Meowzltov]

Until you read the text -and note that "everyone" includes the "son of the foreigner" in vs 6.

It doesn't talk about everyone. It has different sections that address different concerns for different people.

In the section for the convert (son of a foreigner who has drawn close to the Lord) the concern is being alienated by the rest of Israel. There are always those Jews who are snooty and will have nothing to do with Converts. Rabbis use this verse as the foundation for teaching against that practice.

It is the next section on Eunuchs that speaks of the Sabbath.

 

[Meowzltov]

Perpetual on TWO cycles - the weekly AND the monthly cycle - as stated 'in the text'

Perpetual as in all the time. Sabbath to Sabbath means all the days in between just as 1;00 to 4:00 means all the time in between.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Perpetual on TWO cycles - the weekly AND the monthly cycle - as stated 'in the text'

Perpetual as in all the time. Sabbath to Sabbath means all the days in between just as 1;00 to 4:00 means all the time in between.

Which would be total nonsense as "from 1:00pm to 4:00pm AND FROM 2:00pm to 3:00pm" -- by carefully glossing over the detail "from new moon to new moon AND FROM Sabbath to Sabbath" as clearly identifying TWO cycles - not one constant ... you get to the never-seen-in-the-Bible idea that "REMAIN" is to be wrenched into "from new moon to new moon AND FROM Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind COME BEFORE Me to worship". -- ( as if the Bible ever used such a back flip.)

Even your own fellow pro-sunday scholars admit to this being "two cycles" and not "one idea of -- REMAIN"

Isaiah 66:23

Jamieson Fausset Brown

23. Literally, "As often as the new moon (shall be) in its own new moon," that is, every month (Zec 14:16).
Sabbath--which is therefore perpetually obligatory on earth.
all flesh-- (Ps 65:2; 72:11).
before me--at Jerusalem (Jer 3:16, 17).

http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=isa&chapter=066

Matthew Henry Isaiah 66:23

6. That the public worship of God in religious assemblies shall be carefully and constantly attended upon by all that are thus brought as an offering to the Lord, Isaiah 66:23. This is described in expressions suited to the Old-Testament dispensation, to show that though the ceremonial law should be abolished, and the temple service should come to an end, yet God should be still as regularly, constantly, and acceptably worshipped as ever. Heretofore only Jews went up to appear before God, and they were bound to attend only three times a year, and the males only; but now all flesh, Gentiles as well as Jews, women as well as men, shall come and worship before God, in his presence, though not in his temple at Jerusalem, but in religious assemblies dispersed all the world over, which shall be to them as the tabernacle of meeting was to the Jews.

God will in them record his name, and, though but two or three come together, he will be among them, will meet them, and bless them. And they shall have the benefit of these holy convocations frequently, every new moon and every Sabbath, not, as formerly, at the three annual feasts only.

Of course they have to admit that this is "two cycles" and not "one idea of REMAIN all the time before the LORD" -- because the Bible already uses that form.


Zechariah 14:16 : 'And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came up against Jerusalem, shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.'

1. Exodus 13:10
   Therefore, you shall keep this ordinance at its appointed time from year to year.
2. Judges 21:19
   So they said, “Behold, there is a feast of the LORD from year to year in Shiloh, which is on the north side of Bethel, on the east side of the highway that goes up from Bethel to Shechem, and on the south side of Lebonah.”
3. 1 Samuel 2:19
   And his mother would make him a little robe and bring it to him from year to year when she would come up with her husband to offer the yearly sacrifice.

of course all of this is just "facts we see in the actual Bible" so may not have a lot of traction here with some folks, but others will be informed by it.

 

[Meowzltov]

• Exodus 13:10
  Therefore, you shall keep this ordinance at its appointed time from year to year.

• Judges 21:19
  So they said, “Behold, there is a feast of the LORD from year to year in Shiloh, which is on the north side of Bethel, on the east side of the highway that goes up from Bethel to Shechem, and on the south side of Lebonah.”

• 1 Samuel 2:19

Okay, you have succeeded in convincing me about the "TO". However, it is STILL future prophecy, and does not apply to here and now.

 

[Grafted In]

From Romans 14

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.


I think sin enters the picture when we judge others regarding the day of worship.

 

[BobRyan]

Okay, you have succeeded in convincing me about the "TO". However, it is STILL future prophecy, and does not apply to here and now.

1. It shows that OT authors and readers had the concept of 7th day Sabbath applicable to "all mankind" in Is 66:23.
2. You have admitted that this will be binding for all mankind for all of eternity after the cross.
3. Is 56 - (same book, same author) is affirming gentiles who keep the Sabbath - as honoring God.
4. It is only when the second coming happens and the New Earth and New Heavens are established in Rev 21 that all the wicked have perished and so "All mankind" will be keeping the Sabbath not just the "Remnant" or "Israel" -- the "FEW" of Matt 7 keeping it.

This is true no matter if one is pro-Sunday or not. I think all sides can see this point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Meowzltov]

1. It shows that OT authors and readers had the concept of 7th day Sabbath applicable to "all mankind" in Is 66:23.
2. You have admitted that this will be binding for all mankind for all of eternity after the cross.
3. Is 56 - (same book, same author) is affirming gentiles who keep the Sabbath - as honoring God.
4. It is only when the second coming happens and the New Earth and New Heavens are established in Rev 21 that all the wicked have perished and so "All mankind" will be keeping the Sabbath not just the "Remnant" or "Israel" -- the "FEW" of Matt 7 keeping it.

I never said anything became binding after the cross.

Regarding your point #4: So if you understand that "all mankind" will keep the Sabbath only after the second coming, why are you even bothering to mention this verse????? It doesn't do anything for your case.

 

[BobRyan]

I never said anything became binding after the cross.

Regarding your point #4: So if you understand that "all mankind" will keep the Sabbath only after the second coming, why are you even bothering to mention this verse????? It doesn't do anything for your case.

All mankind will be sinless after the 2nd coming - so "why preach against sin now"?? is that the sort of argument you want to make?

 

[BobRyan]

From Romans 14

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.


I think sin enters the picture when we judge others regarding the day of worship.

Indeed that LEv 23 list of annual holy days is a matter of preference.

But that Gal 4 observance of "days" is flatly condemned by Paul - because they are "pagan" days of worship.

 

[bugkiller]

Is it your "tradition" to suppose that they were doing that in the first century - every week?

Historical documents show they were. It has nothing to do with my tradition. And for your information I didn't learn about the historical evidence from some organized church group.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The ol' "foreigner is not a foreigner" fails the test of scripture in Is 56.

Because we "pay attention to the details" --

Is 56
“Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

bugkiller