Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[iamlamad]

The truth is that some pretribbers have fabricated evidence to make it appear that the pretrib view has been around since the first century.

Online sites such as "Rapture Ready" are famous for this type of distortion.
They will produce one quote from an early Church Father, but fail to produce the others that show the opposite viewpoint.

Author Grant Jeffrey took the writings of the early Church Fathers and removed those sections that showed a PostTrib viewpoint in order to promote his pretrib view. The undeniable proof is found in the link below.

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

On page 197 of the 1998 edition of his book "Rapture Under Attack" author Time LaHaye admits that the PostTrib viewpoint is the oldest.
.

All of what came previous to today cannot begin to compare with what the scriptures actually TELL US about these things. For example, for centuries just the basic doctrine you like so well of salvation by faith alone was hidden. The idea of a real 1000 year reign was believed by very few, if any earlier believers. Today millions believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ - and they should, because it is written clearly in scripture.

 

[Postvieww]

It is not per se a resurrection, but the 144,000 somehow show up in heaven around the midpoint of the week.

Next, it is not a single verse we should look at to answer such a question, but the totality of scripture on the subject. Sorry, but a posttrib rapture does not fit too many other scriptures. It forces the church to live through God's wrath on earth, and that is not scirptural. If forces one to rearrange Revelation, and that too is not scriptural.

So the answer to my question is NO?

 

[iamlamad]

So the answer to my question is NO?

Correct. There ARE passages that hint at more than one resurrection. For example, there is not one word in 1 thes, 4 & 5 that even hint the Old Testament saints would be included in the rapture of the church. It is strictly for those "In Christ."

 

[Postvieww]

It really makes little difference one way or another what early Christians wrote about this. We can see from what is written in centuries past that it was as Daniel wrote, a sealed subject with very little knowledge of the intent of the scriptures. Most thought that the church would get stronger and stronger and eventually take over the world. We can see today that that is not the intent of the scripture, nor does it seem even remotely possible in the world today. We can also see that during the dark ages must of New Testament truths were lost, but eventually regained with men like John Huss and Martin Luther.

What we need to know is, do the scriptures themselves teach a pretrib rapture?

Lamad said:

It really makes little difference one way or another what early Christians wrote about this.


When Job8 wrote: “The truth is that many Bible truths were suppressed or submerged or subverted over the centuries.” You said it was a good answer. It would seem to me, if the truth had been suppressed or subverted it would have been a truth once believed and openly taught and recorded by those church fathers you now claim don’t matter, before it was suppressed. Where is that evidence?



We can see from what is written in centuries past that it was as Daniel wrote, a sealed subject with very little knowledge of the intent of the scriptures.


You claim pre-trib was revealed only to Paul, if that be the case, he would have clearly taught and explained it sufficiently to his converts. It was what Daniel wrote that was sealed not what Paul wrote.


Most thought that the church would get stronger and stronger and eventually take over the world. We can see today that that is not the intent of the scripture, nor does it seem even remotely possible in the world today. We can also see that during the dark ages must of New Testament truths were lost, but eventually regained with men like John Huss and Martin Luther.


If pre-trib was lost during that time, there should be some evidence of its existence before that time, right!


What we need to know is, do the scriptures themselves teach a pretrib rapture?


The answer to your question is they do not!

 

[Postvieww]

Correct. There ARE passages that hint at more than one resurrection. For example, there is not one word in 1 thes, 4 & 5 that even hint the Old Testament saints would be included in the rapture of the church. It is strictly for those "In Christ."

So when Jesus said: “for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just” “I will raise him up at the last day” Paul’s revelation was hidden from Him? I really doubt that is the case.

It would seem now you should produce a resurrection scripture that includes Old Testament saints and excludes New Testament saints.

Maybe you could produce a scripture that says “resurrections” as in the plural. We need a scripture to get those to whom Jesus said He would raise at the last day out of the ground.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When Jesus spoke these words He was referring to New Testament, born again, blood bought, church members, the body of Christ as well as those who had died previously. He made no separation. There are types of Christ and the cross all through the Old Testament, those looked forward to the cross , we look back to the finished work of the cross.

 

[Bro.T]

Most of the churches in the world worship on Sunday, which is NOT the 7th day. But then, God made the Sabbath for man, NOT man for the Sabbath.

Today we see man change the sabbath day for himself, with out God (Jesus) approval. We must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the Holy Bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" Paul say in (Philippians 2:12). Jesus warned us that the road to salvation is straight and narrow and that only a few of us will find it. Many are traveling down the wrong road, which leads to destruction. Jesus say Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matt 7:13,14) This is because many of us have heard about salvation but few of us want to do what is necessary to get salvation (many are called but few are chosen).

I agree, most people go to church on Sunday, but Jesus say broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat, this is simple cause Jesus custom was he kept the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week (Saturday). (Luke 4:16)

Now any Christian in their right mind wouldn’t dare say that it’s okay to steal, kill or commit adultery or break any of the other seven commandments. But when it comes to the fourth commandment, people avoid it like a plague! They are either uninformed about which day is the Sabbath day of the God of the Bible or they are just following the tradition of religion that was passed down through the family or maybe they have let some preacher give them other excuses for ignoring God’s true day of worship. This also have a great affect on traditional man made doctrine as well as including the Rapture doctrine, which is and error.

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad said:

It really makes little difference one way or another what early Christians wrote about this.


When Job8 wrote: “The truth is that many Bible truths were suppressed or submerged or subverted over the centuries.” You said it was a good answer. It would seem to me, if the truth had been suppressed or subverted it would have been a truth once believed and openly taught and recorded by those church fathers you now claim don’t matter, before it was suppressed. Where is that evidence?
We don't have any written records of those whom Paul taught first hand. They would be important. But anything their children wrote would be next generation and would be questionable. It seems that from generation to generation, throughout bible history, truths have been lost in one generation. Paul was a "church father," and we have his record recorded. What Job8 wrote is easily seen in Martin Luther's life.


We can see from what is written in centuries past that it was as Daniel wrote, a sealed subject with very little knowledge of the intent of the scriptures.


You claim pre-trib was revealed only to Paul, if that be the case, he would have clearly taught and explained it sufficiently to his converts. It was what Daniel wrote that was sealed not what Paul wrote.
Yet for centuries the main thought of end times was amillennial. Today there are few amillennialists left. The majority have been premillennialists.


Most thought that the church would get stronger and stronger and eventually take over the world. We can see today that that is not the intent of the scripture, nor does it seem even remotely possible in the world today. We can also see that during the dark ages must of New Testament truths were lost, but eventually regained with men like John Huss and Martin Luther.


If pre-trib was lost during that time, there should be some evidence of its existence before that time, right!
AS I said, it seems the end times were sealed. How many real students of the bible today believe in amillennialism? What John and Daniel wrote has been there for all to read, but it seems few back a few hundred years believe it as most believe it today. Perhaps it is because what they see around them has changed.

What we need to know is, do the scriptures themselves teach a pretrib rapture?


The answer to your question is they do not!

OPINION! Millions today think they do.

 

[BABerean2]

Correct. There ARE passages that hint at more than one resurrection. For example, there is not one word in 1 thes, 4 & 5 that even hint the Old Testament saints would be included in the rapture of the church. It is strictly for those "In Christ."

Your view above is a modern idea.
Even John Darby believed that the Old Testament saints would be raised at the rapture of the Church.
This fact can be found in the book "Things to Come" by Dr. Dwight Pentecost, who was a professor at Dallas Theological.

Many modern Dispensationalists have rejected Darby's belief in an attempt to keep the Church and Israel separated.

There is one judgment of both those alive and those dead at the Second Coming.



2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;



Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.



Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.



Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
.

 

[Bible2+]

Postvieww quoted Irenaeus in post 6494:

He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel . . .

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

In Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). The 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. The 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

 

[Bible2+]

iamlamad said in post 6497:

God will set no appointment with His wrath.

Amen.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep [live or die], we should live together with him.

And note that even the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) won't be God's wrath. For it will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before, whereas the day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8); just as the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the 1st stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

*******

iamlamad said in post 6498:

It really makes little difference one way or another what early Christians wrote about this. We can see from what is written in centuries past that it was as Daniel wrote, a sealed subject with very little knowledge of the intent of the scriptures.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Note that the "time, times, and an half" in the subsequent verse of Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that Revelation was written in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' 1st coming and his crucifixion for our sins.

So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' 1st coming and the writing of Revelation, going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what is going to happen in our future by seeing how much these 2 books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which haven't been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), while Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

 

[Bible2+]

BABerean2 said in post 6508:

There is one judgment of both those alive and those dead at the Second Coming.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Note that 2 Timothy 4:1 can include both of the future final-judgments. For Jesus will finally-judge only the church immediately at his future appearing (2nd coming) (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27, Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48), while the unsaved won't be finally-judged until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). And the great white throne judgment can be thought of as the 3rd and final stage of the physical aspect of Jesus' kingdom, the 1st stage being Jesus' post-2nd-coming, 1,000-year reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21), and the 2nd stage being after the 1,000 years, when the Gog/Magog rebellion, its defeat, and then an at-least 7-year aftermath will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Ezekiel 39:9b).

BABerean2 said in post 6508:

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Regarding the sheep and goat judgment, note that Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of God the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

BABerean2 said in post 6508:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Regarding John 5:28-29, note that it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be 2 (still-unfulfilled) physical resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (original Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future, physical resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the 1st and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life" while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the 1st resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled, 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), will be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

 

[BABerean2]

Regarding the sheep and goat judgment, note that Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming

The first word of the verse is not "can" or "could".

It is "When".

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

The judgment of the dead occurs at His Second Coming.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Again, we do not find the words "could" or "can".

We "can" make the text mean whatever we "could" want it to mean by using the words "could" or "can", but it is not being honest with the Word of God.

The only way to get a manmade doctrine to work is by forcing the text not to mean what it plainly says.
If it produces conflict with other passages, it cannot be the correct interpretation.

Both of these passages agree with the words of the Judge in John chapter 5.



Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just;

The one thing that does not fit is your 1,000 year period after the Second Coming, when sin and death continue on the earth, even though the One who destroyed sin and death as the Cross is running the planet, with our help teaching those left in their mortal bodies.
We do such a great job of teaching that at the end of the 1,000 years those we have taught, rebel against Christ, again.
He has to use Flaming Fire again, to destroy those who have rebelled against Him, again.
Therefore, He destroys the armies of Satan, again.
Then the Book of Life is read again, and the judgment of the dead occurs, again.
It sounds almost like the Second Coming, all over again, does it not?

Is the Gog Magog War the Battle of Armageddon ?
http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Gog


1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

.

 

[iamlamad]

Your view above is a modern idea.
Even John Darby believed that the Old Testament saints would be raised at the rapture of the Church.
This fact can be found in the book "Things to Come" by Dr. Dwight Pentecost, who was a professor at Dallas Theological.

Many modern Dispensationalists have rejected Darby's belief in an attempt to keep the Church and Israel separated.

There is one judgment of both those alive and those dead at the Second Coming.



2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
This verse does NOT specify that all will be judged at the same time. In fact, Revelation proves the sinner is judged last. I know, you wish to IGNORE what John wrote in Revelation, for you cannot believe him.


Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
This is AFTER many other things, one of which is that the dead in Christ shall rise. The church won't be a part of this judgment. And the white throne is yet a separate judgment from this one. This judgment is to decide WHO of those left alive will be allowed entrance into the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
We have been over this before: God has proven to anyone that can read and believe what they read that all shall certainly hear in their hour, but it will be a DIFFERENT HOUR for some than for other.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Try inserting 1000 years between these two resurrections and you will get it right. Notice that Jesus Himself separated the two.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.



Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
.

My comments above in dark red.

My view is a scriptural view.

We have been over this verse over and over. It is written as a PROPHECY of future events. It does not take place at the 7th trumpet. It takes place in chapter 20 over 3 1/2 years after the 7th trumpet. But then, you have always struggled over TIME, and TIMING. Everything in Revelation does not happen in one moment of time! TIME MOVES as John narrates first the seals, then the trumpets and finally the vials. From the 7th seal to the 7th vial will be 2520 days.

 

[iamlamad]

The first word of the verse is not "can" or "could".

It is "When".

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

The judgment of the dead occurs at His Second Coming.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Again, we do not find the words "could" or "can".

We "can" make the text mean whatever we "could" want it to mean by using the words "could" or "can", but it is not being honest with the Word of God.

The only way to get a manmade doctrine to work is by forcing the text not to mean what it plainly says.
If it produces conflict with other passages, it cannot be the correct interpretation.

Both of these passages agree with the words of the Judge in John chapter 5.



Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just;

The one thing that does not fit is your 1,000 year period after the Second Coming, when sin and death continue on the earth, even though the One who destroyed sin and death as the Cross is running the planet, with our help teaching those left in their mortal bodies.
We do such a great job of teaching that at the end of the 1,000 years those we have taught, rebel against Christ, again.
He has to use Flaming Fire again, to destroy those who have rebelled against Him, again.
Therefore, He destroys the armies of Satan, again.
Then the Book of Life is read again, and the judgment of the dead occurs, again.
It sounds almost like the Second Coming, all over again, does it not?

Is the Gog Magog War the Battle of Armageddon ?
http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Gog


1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

You still struggle with this TIMING issue. You simply cannot believe what John wrote in very simple language.

YOu seem to like WHEN words, so WHEN in Revelation will death finally be destroyed? How about at the white throne judgment? WHEN is that? If you WOULD read and believe, it will be AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ.

By the way, HOW LONG do you imagine it might take for the judgment of the Nations?

" then He will sit on the throne of His glory." How long will it take to defeat His enemies at the Battle of Armageddon? Add to that He comes from Bozrah and Edom. (Isaiah 63:1) How long will that take? He will take TIME as His foot touches down on Mount Olive. Do you think it will take TIME to build this "throne of His glory?" Perhaps this means that He will first BUILD the temple Ezekiel spent chapters describing. If so, how long with that take?

My point is, He will take TIME doing all that is written that He will do. WHEN it is written of the things He will do WHEN He comes, may not mean it all happens the first second after He has finally come. If fact, if there was something written that He would do say 500 years into the 1000 year reign one come say, "oh, He will do that when He comes." This phrase does not necessarily have to mean the very first moment of His coming.

 

[BABerean2]

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

You still struggle with this TIMING issue. You simply cannot believe what John wrote in very simple language.

YOu seem to like WHEN words, so WHEN in Revelation will death finally be destroyed? How about at the white throne judgment? WHEN is that? If you WOULD read and believe, it will be AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ.

By the way, HOW LONG do you imagine it might take for the judgment of the Nations?

" then He will sit on the throne of His glory." How long will it take to defeat His enemies at the Battle of Armageddon? Add to that He comes from Bozrah and Edom. (Isaiah 63:1) How long will that take? He will take TIME as His foot touches down on Mount Olive. Do you think it will take TIME to build this "throne of His glory?" Perhaps this means that He will first BUILD the temple Ezekiel spent chapters describing. If so, how long with that take?

My point is, He will take TIME doing all that is written that He will do. WHEN it is written of the things He will do WHEN He comes, may not mean it all happens the first second after He has finally come. If fact, if there was something written that He would do say 500 years into the 1000 year reign one come say, "oh, He will do that when He comes." This phrase does not necessarily have to mean the very first moment of His coming.

Psa_50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
(used here as a very large number, but not exactly the number 1,000)



Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

.

 

[iamlamad]

Psa_50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
(used here as a very large number, but not exactly the number 1,000)



Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

.

So WHAT if God wanted to write exactly 1000? What is He to do? You would not believe Him!
The best translations say NO MORE DELAY In time. If you would only flip pages and believe what you read JOHN HIMSELF included TIME after this verse. "time no longer" is not a good translation. Is "last day" a time? Is 1260 days a TIME?

It is good to quote scriptures, but it would be far better to UNDERSTAND THEM.

 

[BABerean2]

So WHAT if God wanted to write exactly 1000? What is He to do? You would not believe Him!
The best translations say NO MORE DELAY In time. If you would only flip pages and believe what you read JOHN HIMSELF included TIME after this verse. "time no longer" is not a good translation. Is "last day" a time? Is 1260 days a TIME?

It is good to quote scriptures, but it would be far better to UNDERSTAND THEM.

When is a time. Then is a time.

Mat 25:31"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

Mat 25:32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Mat 25:33And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. (NKJV)


Mat 25:31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

Mat 25:32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Mat 25:33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. (ESV)



Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd dividethhissheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. ( KJV)



Mat 25:31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;

Mat 25:33and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. ( ASV)


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, The kingdom of the world is become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever.



Rev 11:18 And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth.




Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.



2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The number 1,000 could be taken literally as a numerical value, if it did not produce conflict in numerous other clear passages.
Since this is the case, we are forced to take it in the same way it is used in Psalm 50:10.
It is used as a large, but not exact number.


Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, And the cattle upon a thousand hills.
.

 

[iamlamad]

When is a time. Then is a time.

Mat 25:31"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

Mat 25:32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Mat 25:33And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. (NKJV)


Mat 25:31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

Mat 25:32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Mat 25:33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. (ESV)



Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd dividethhissheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. ( KJV)



Mat 25:31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;

Mat 25:33and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. ( ASV)

So before the Battle of Armageddon He puts all those millions of soldiers and the Beast and the False Prophet ON HOLD - Perhaps tells them to hold on for a few hours while He does His sheep and goat judgment - and then He will be back to fight with them. Ya, that makes a lot of sense. NOT!

What is MUCH more likely: WHEN HE COMES but AFTER the Battle of Armageddon and AFTER He finished with Bozra.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, The kingdom of the world is become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever.



Rev 11:18 And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth.
But it is NOT the time some judging is done. Therefore this is PROPHECY. Read and understand. Some judging is not done until chapter 20 AFTER the vials. Why do you always overlook these things as if they don't exist? Is English your first language?



Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
THIS is judging, and it is 3 1/2 years AFTER the 7th trumpet. You have been pulling verses OUT OF CONTEXT.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
When? The moment He enters the atmosphere? Would this happen BEFORE Armageddon or AFTER? BEFORE the sheep and Goat judgment or AFTER?

The number 1,000 could be taken literally as a numerical value, if it did not produce conflict in numerous other clear passages.
IT DOES NOT: It may appear to but that is ONLY because of your faulty theories.

Since this is the case, we are forced to take it in the same way it is used in Psalm 50:10.
It is used as a large, but not exact number.
Why not just alter your false theory so it fits? Your theory requires it to not exist at all. As I have said, you have a real trouble with TIME.


Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, And the cattle upon a thousand hills.
.

There is NO REASON why this thousand years is NOT REAL. After all, the 6000 before it were very real! Did you ever think of that? You amaze me.

 

[Another Lazarus]

We are not appointed to suffer the wrath of great tribulation.
1 Thes 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thes 1:10 and to wait for this Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

 

[BABerean2]

We are not appointed to suffer the wrath of great tribulation.
1 Thes 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thes 1:10 and to wait for this Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

You are correct. But, maybe not in the way you intended...


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death. (These covered by the Blood of the Lamb are Christians.)


Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(Most of the Great Tribulation is Satan's wrath upon the Church.)

........................................................................
wrath- G3709


ὀργή

orgē

or-gay'

From G3713; properly desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: - anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.
......................................................................

tribulation- G2347


θλίψις

thlipsis

thlip'-sis

From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
....................................................................


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.



Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


God's Wrath and the Great Tribulation are not the same thing.
God pours out His wrath, after we are gathered at the 7th trumpet.
.