There is no Creation Debate

[SteveB28]

Yes it is tedious. When are you going to provide the evidence to support your claim that God doesn't exist? I have never demanded that anyone provide proof that God exists. All I have ever asked is that you provide proof for your claim that God does not exist. As you know, if you make a claim, the responsibility lies with you to provide the evidence to support your claim!

Your problem here is that I MAKE NO CLAIM - I merely REJECT YOURS! You say that a God exists. I don't believe you.

And the reason I don't believe is the same reason for me not believing those who claim that fairies exist - none of you are able to support your claims with EVIDENCE!

Writers of which day? Dear oh me we are so obtuse. Why don't you read Josephus to start with. He was a Jew who wrote the history of the time Jesus was on the earth from a Jewish perspective, not a christian one.

Josephus, Tacitus, etc were NOT witnesses to the claims you make. They merely reported that there existed a group of people just like you - those who also believed in the claims. If I wrote that I know a fellow who lives in Indonesia and claims that he has seen Allah, my writing is NOT evidence supporting his claim.

 

[tiglathpileser]

The title of this topic is "There is no creation debate" so I am going to stick with that instead of being drawn into nebulous and irrelevant discussion with atheists who think that they are a world authority on God and creation.

I don't know why they are here trying to do what they do as not one single thing they say is going to change my mind. After all, if I don't know what I believe after 62 years as a christian I never will.

Much as they like to believe that they know everything about God and we know nothing, I am not impressed at all with their rhetoric and hyperbole.

So with that introduction, let's address the issue that there is no creation debate.

Of course there isn't if you believe in God and what his word says. I happen to believe in God and what his word says. So what does it say?

Just this....In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and everything in it Genesis 1:1. What I have learnt from reading several books on the topic, the whole of the Bible revolves around that little verse. If you don't believe that you might as well not believe anything because the narrative of the bible is bound up in that one verse.

That one verse establishes the whole of God's creation and purpose and from that one verse all others have their meaning.

Furthermore there is another little verse that is vital to our belief system and it is this...Genesis 1:31 And God saw everything that He had made and behold, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning the sixth day.

Note God saw EVERYTHING that he had made. Note not evolved. if a child puts together a model you don't say to him, "you have done a good job evolving that model." You say "You have done a good job making that model."

That tells us that the creation that God saw was made by him and what he say he considered to be good. In other words he was very pleased with his creation. If it had evolved he could not be pleased with his creation as it would as we are told have taken millions of years to come about.

If that was the case he would have said "I am pleased with what I have made so far. I hope the rest of it is going to be just as good." So you see logic and the word of God both attest to the creation of the universe by a creator God.

 

[The Cadet]

I don't know why they are here trying to do what they do as not one single thing they say is going to change my mind.

Not everyone is as closed-minded as you are. Some people actually might learn something from the exchange, even if you are determined not to.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The title of this topic is "There is no creation debate" so I am going to stick with that instead of being drawn into nebulous and irrelevant discussion with atheists who think that they are a world authority on God and creation.

You are mischaracterizing the people on the atheist side. We are not all that sure of everything, but it is possible to tell you when you are wrong. One does not need to know how to do a Fourier Transform to know that 2 + 2 = 4.

I don't know why they are here trying to do what they do as not one single thing they say is going to change my mind. After all, if I don't know what I believe after 62 years as a christian I never will.

We are here to help you with a better understanding of the universe that you live in.

Much as they like to believe that they know everything about God and we know nothing, I am not impressed at all with their rhetoric and hyperbole.

You are simply repeating your errors now. See above.

So with that introduction, let's address the issue that there is no creation debate.

Correct the creationist side lost the debate over 100 years ago. As I told you, we are not here to debate, we are here simply to help.

Of course there isn't if you believe in God and what his word says. I happen to believe in God and what his word says. So what does it say?

Now this is clearly not true since most Christians accept the theory of evolution all around the world. Try telling those Christians that they do not believe in God or what his word says.

Just this....In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and everything in it Genesis 1:1. What I have learnt from reading several books on the topic, the whole of the Bible revolves around that little verse. If you don't believe that you might as well not believe anything because the narrative of the bible is bound up in that one verse.

Yes, but it that one little verse can be interpreted in many different ways.

That one verse establishes the whole of God's creation and purpose and from that one verse all others have their meaning.

Furthermore there is another little verse that is vital to our belief system and it is this...Genesis 1:31 And God saw everything that He had made and behold, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning the sixth day.

Note God saw EVERYTHING that he had made. Note not evolved. if a child puts together a model you don't say to him, "you have done a good job evolving that model." You say "You have done a good job making that model."

Sorry, but now you have degenerated to using a semantic argument. People don't do that until they have lost the factual one.

That tells us that the creation that God saw was made by him and what he say he considered to be good. In other words he was very pleased with his creation. If it had evolved he could not be pleased with his creation as it would as we are told have taken millions of years to come about.

Why do you think that your God could not have used evolution as the tool for making life the way that it is today? It seems that you are not "reading the Bible" instead you are telling God how he had to make life.

If that was the case he would have said "I am pleased with what I have made so far. I hope the rest of it is going to be just as good." So you see logic and the word of God both attest to the creation of the universe by a creator God.

Let's suppose that your God story is at least somewhat real. Do you think that the rather ignorant people of that time could have appreciated or understood it? Look at how almost all of the creationists get evolution wrong and they have had the benefit of a modern education. Goat herders living in rather simple housing with no modern amenities would be hard pressed to have the time to learn.

 

[tiglathpileser]

The fact that God made such a good job of creating the heavens and the earth, means that we believers have really got something to look forward to as we are going to be citizens of the New Jerusalem when Jesus returns to earth again. That is why I say the first verse of Genesis has so much to say about yesterday, today and tomorrow.

The word "good" in Genesis means many things in the original Hebrew and not the least beautiful, best, better and bountiful...Just imagine that God is going to return his creation to that time when he created it. We as believers are destined for an eternity that is beautiful, best, better and bountiful.

A wonderful example before earth was corrupted is the fact that the wolf shall live with the lamb; and the leopard shall lie with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little boy shall lead them.(Isaiah 11:6) in the New Jerusalem. War will be a thing of the past and no one will be in need.

And He shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke many people. And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, nor shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:4)

What's not to like?

 

[The Cadet]

What's not to like?

The part where we ignore reality in favor of a pleasant fantasy. The fact where people in congress say, "It's the end times, who cares about global warming?" Things like that.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth sprout tender sprouts, the plant seeding seed, the fruit tree producing fruit according to its kind, whichever seed is in it on the earth. And it was so. And the earth bore tender sprouts, the plant seeding seed according to its kind, and the fruit tree producing fruit according to its kind, whichever seed is in it. And God saw that it was good.

I would loved to have been there when God created the heavens and the earth. To be sitting next to him and watching all the tender sprouts coming out of the earth according to their kind and fruit trees producing fruit according to their own kind. One minute they are an inch high, then two inches, then three inches and then a foot and then a yard and so on and so on. All springing up out of the earth as God spoke. Millions of acres of food bearing in mind there were no houses, roads or buildings of any kind. The earth must have been awash with the colour green.

Because God did not have to deal with sin at the time of creation, the earth must have been a place of rare beauty and then when God brought the animals into being they must have all been mates and lived with each other peacefully.

 

[SteveB28]

The title of this topic is "There is no creation debate" so I am going to stick with that instead of being drawn into nebulous and irrelevant discussion with atheists who think that they are a world authority on God and creation.

Wise move on your part. Your argument, such as it was, was being demolished.

I don't know why they are here trying to do what they do as not one single thing they say is going to change my mind. After all, if I don't know what I believe after 62 years as a christian I never will.

The wondrous sound of a mind slamming shut..........

Much as they like to believe that they know everything about God and we know nothing, I am not impressed at all with their rhetoric and hyperbole.

I know as much about your god as I do about anyone else's, or fairies, or goblins, or things that go bump in the night.

So with that introduction, let's address the issue that there is no creation debate.

Of course there isn't if you believe in God and what his word says. I happen to believe in God and what his word says. So what does it say?

I'm surmising that it will say whatever you choose it to say, in order to support your particular view.

Just this....In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and everything in it Genesis 1:1. What I have learnt from reading several books on the topic, the whole of the Bible revolves around that little verse. If you don't believe that you might as well not believe anything because the narrative of the bible is bound up in that one verse.

That one verse establishes the whole of God's creation and purpose and from that one verse all others have their meaning.

Really? It's a science book now? Just about every Christian that I speak to tells me that the bible shouldn't be regarded as either a science book nor history book.

Furthermore there is another little verse that is vital to our belief system and it is this...Genesis 1:31 And God saw everything that He had made and behold, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning the sixth day.

Note God saw EVERYTHING that he had made. Note not evolved. if a child puts together a model you don't say to him, "you have done a good job evolving that model." You say "You have done a good job making that model."

That tells us that the creation that God saw was made by him and what he say he considered to be good. In other words he was very pleased with his creation. If it had evolved he could not be pleased with his creation as it would as we are told have taken millions of years to come about.

If that was the case he would have said "I am pleased with what I have made so far. I hope the rest of it is going to be just as good." So you see logic and the word of God both attest to the creation of the universe by a creator God.

If that word play is to be the basis of your 'argument', then, as others have pointed out, your fight is with your fellow Christians, not us.

"Made" or "evolved", we don't consider a god had anything to do with it.

 

[SteveB28]

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth sprout tender sprouts, the plant seeding seed, the fruit tree producing fruit according to its kind, whichever seed is in it on the earth. And it was so. And the earth bore tender sprouts, the plant seeding seed according to its kind, and the fruit tree producing fruit according to its kind, whichever seed is in it. And God saw that it was good.

I would loved to have been there when God created the heavens and the earth. To be sitting next to him and watching all the tender sprouts coming out of the earth according to their kind and fruit trees producing fruit according to their own kind. One minute they are an inch high, then two inches, then three inches and then a foot and then a yard and so on and so on. All springing up out of the earth as God spoke. Millions of acres of food bearing in mind there were no houses, roads or buildings of any kind. The earth must have been awash with the colour green.

Because God did not have to deal with sin at the time of creation, the earth must have been a place of rare beauty and then when God brought the animals into being they must have all been mates and lived with each other peacefully.

No, I think I would have preferred to have been with Alice on the other side of the Looking Glass. The imagery there strikes me as being far more spectacular.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters be full of living things, and let birds be in flight over the earth under the arch of heaven. And God made great sea-beasts, and every sort of living and moving thing with which the waters were full, and every sort of winged bird: and God saw that it was good. And God gave them his blessing, saying, Be fertile and have increase, making all the waters of the seas full, and let the birds be increased in the earth.

I love the sand, sea and water. Just imagine being on the sea shore and watching God filling the sea with every living thing and then imagine being able to go into the sea amongst all these living sea creatures and not one of them will harm you. I love the natural history programmes that show us what goes on beneath the waves with its sea creatures and their myriad of colours.

I would have loved to have swum amongst them stroking them and watching them up close. I have a very definite feeling that is what we are going to be able to do in the New heavens and the new earth. We shall be able to indulge our delights and not have to be afraid of anything, not even being stung by jellyfish as they won't have a sting anymore.

One might say it will be pure heaven. What's not to like?

Oh, did you note from the moment of creation, God told the sea creatures and birds to be fertile and increase? So it meant that from the moment of creation birds and fish were increasing in numbers all the time. Who needs evolution?

 

[SteveB28]

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters be full of living things, and let birds be in flight over the earth under the arch of heaven. And God made great sea-beasts, and every sort of living and moving thing with which the waters were full, and every sort of winged bird: and God saw that it was good. And God gave them his blessing, saying, Be fertile and have increase, making all the waters of the seas full, and let the birds be increased in the earth.

I love the sand, sea and water. Just imagine being on the sea shore and watching God filling the sea with every living thing and then imagine being able to go into the sea amongst all these living sea creatures and not one of them will harm you. I love the natural history programmes that show us what goes on beneath the waves with its sea creatures and their myriad of colours.

I would have loved to have swum amongst them stroking them and watching them up close. I have a very definite feeling that is what we are going to be able to do in the New heavens and the new earth. We shall be able to indulge our delights and not have to be afraid of anything, not even being stung by jellyfish as they won't have a sting anymore.

One might say it will be pure heaven. What's not to like?

Oh, did you note from the moment of creation, God told the sea creatures and birds to be fertile and increase? So it meant that from the moment of creation birds and fish were increasing in numbers all the time. Who needs evolution?

Should you ever visit my land (Australia) please don't exercise your fantasy in our waterways. Mr Great White Shark and Mr Saltwater Crocodile might shatter your illusions in particularly nasty ways!

 

[Hoghead1]

That's very much like teh Omega Point talked about by Teilhard de Chardin, who believed evolution was God's way of delivering us into the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Hoghead1]

At no point does the Bible say, Tiglath, that God is done with his creation, did all he could, and that's it. If anything, Scripture is testimony to an ongoing- evolution, as God leads the people of Israel from a semi-barbaric group of nomads into a mighty urban nation. And Scripture goes father than that, pointing ot the realization of teh Kingdom of God. I'd say Scripture is one of the most evolutionary books that there is.

 

[tiglathpileser]

The trouble with people who want to bring God down to their level is that they think that the God who does not exist in their eyes can be explained away with finite thinking. Well, maybe not because they have no proof whatsoever that God doesn't exist. It is all hyperbole.

I have to admit it doesn't bother me one little bit when they try and tell us that the God we love and serve is a myth. Don't they say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In a couple of verses we see this explained.....

Psalm 96:6 Honor and majesty are before Him; strength and beauty are in His sanctuary. Oh worship Jehovah in the beauty of holiness; tremble before Him, all the earth.

The writer David, who by the way was not a goat herder, was pointing out that beauty is to be seen and enjoyed in God's presence. In addition he points out that holiness is a thing of beauty. Says a lot about sin doesn't it.

I believe he could say these things because God had built in beauty as part of the creation and David saw it from God's perspective, not his own. In fact when God pronounced that his creation was good he was saying it was beautiful.

Therefore it is logical that something of beauty is a creation of God and something that is not beautiful is the creation of man or satan.

Of course even something like beauty has been distorted and ruined by sin in many cases and one of the purposes of salvation is to have that beauty restored. I can't tell you the number of times I have heard someone say that so and so is so different now that he/she is born again. All the anger, hate and ugliness has gone and it has been replaced with beauty, peace and gentleness.

What's not to like?

 

[SteveB28]

The trouble with people who want to bring God down to their level is that they think that the God who does not exist in their eyes can be explained away with finite thinking. Well, maybe not because they have no proof whatsoever that God doesn't exist. It is all hyperbole.

And we have no "proof" that Thor doesn't exist either. Should we start believing in him on that basis?

I have to admit it doesn't bother me one little bit when they try and tell us that the God we love and serve is a myth. Don't they say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In a couple of verses we see this explained.....

Psalm 96:6 Honor and majesty are before Him; strength and beauty are in His sanctuary. Oh worship Jehovah in the beauty of holiness; tremble before Him, all the earth.

The bible is true because the bible is true. Do you understand circular reasoning?

The writer David, who by the way was not a goat herder, was pointing out that beauty is to be seen and enjoyed in God's presence. In addition he points out that holiness is a thing of beauty. Says a lot about sin doesn't it.

I believe he could say these things because God had built in beauty as part of the creation and David saw it from God's perspective, not his own. In fact when God pronounced that his creation was good he was saying it was beautiful.

Therefore it is logical that something of beauty is a creation of God and something that is not beautiful is the creation of man or satan.

The bible is true because..........

Of course even something like beauty has been distorted and ruined by sin in many cases and one of the purposes of salvation is to have that beauty restored. I can't tell you the number of times I have heard someone say that so and so is so different now that he/she is born again. All the anger, hate and ugliness has gone and it has been replaced with beauty, peace and gentleness.

What's not to like?

Including those good folk who want to put homosexuals and abortion providers to death?

 

[dad]

dad, we were not discussing Obama. Why even bring this up? In fact in the last evolution trial that your side lost the judge was a conservative appointed by Bush.

You mentioned constitution.

 

[dad]

Maybe.

no

 

[dad]

dad, we were not discussing Obama. Why even bring this up? In fact in the last evolution trial that your side lost the judge was a conservative appointed by Bush.

My side wasn't there

 

[Subduction Zone]

You mentioned constitution.

Yes, but that was no excuse to bring up some unrelated paranoia.

 

[tiglathpileser]

I am not sure what homosexuality and abortion has got to do with there is no creation debate. Unless of course one reads that God made them male and female not male and male or female and female.

I have 12 different renditions of the bible plus the original Greek and Hebrew and not one of them speak of God making them male and male and female and female. With such a weight of evidence, I guess the best thing is to stay with what God said rather than what man thinks.

You know, I remember when we used to accept that what God said was true but it seems that when man decided he could do better than God and ditched the guide book, all hell was let loose.

For instance, I only ever knew two women who got pregnant who were not married. Today, they get pregnant at the drop of a hat with whoever they like and a lot of the time they don't even know who the father of the baby is but no worries. We can have the baby killed because the government says it is legal to have your own baby killed if it is a nuisance.

Now, one has to ask oneself, which is a better world. The one that God has some control over or the one which is controlled by man? Well, I know what all the murdered babies would say and they run into millions. They would say "stop the world, I want to get off because it has gone completely mad."

And I don't blame them. After all, what have they done wrong to receive a death sentence? Nothing at all. Not a chance to stand up for themselves. Wiped out before they have a chance to live.

Everytime I go into a supermarket and see a little baby in a trolley pulling their toe or throwing something out of their cradle I am mesmerised by the beauty of God's creation and I am saddened by the brutality of adults who destroy God's creation.

I am advised by those in the know that these women have nightmares about it for years to come and it is nothing for them to suddenly break down and cry for the baby they could have had but had destroyed instead.