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Can the Interpretive Approach of Reformed Protestantism lead out of Christianity?

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rakovsky

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(1) Does "Reformed" Protestantism (Calvinism, Presbyterianism, Evangelicalism, etc.) have a solid, clear, direct basis in 1st to 3rd century Christian traditions and writings to claim that the Communion food is "only" a symbol* and to reject Jesus' "real" presence in the elements?

(2) Does Protestantism have a clear, direct basis in those early traditions and writings to reject the special respect and claimed miraculous properties of holy relics?


(3) Could the" Reformed" approach to theology lead out of and away from Biblical Christianity?

I propose that we spend a little bit on each question and then move to the next question one by one. This thread is not debating whether Reformed Protestantism teaches a version of Christianity, rather the thread is investigating the implications of this theological approach.

*Hedrick clarified that the Communion food is not only a symbol of Christ's body, but also a vehicle for the ritual, a ritual that involves spiritually carrying the believer to heaven where they experience Christ's presence. (For Luther, there was an emphasis on Christ being ubiquitous and being in the form of bread). See our discussions below for more details.
 
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rakovsky

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Let us start with the first question.
(1) Does "Reformed" Protestantism have a clear, direct basis in 1st to 3rd century traditions and writings to claim that the Communion meal is "only" a symbol and to reject Jesus' "real" presence in its elements?

I was confirmed in the PCUSA and went to an Evangelical Christian school. We were taught that the Communion food was "only" a symbol of Jesus' body, that it did not have Jesus' spiritual presence (like Lutherans claim), and was not Jesus' physical body (as Catholicism teaches).

The only reason I remember that the "Reformed" Protestants gave me was that Jesus said to take the communion meal in "memory" of him. But when I think critically about this reason, it looks weak. Just because Jesus says to do something in his memory does not mean that He is not present in it. It seems reasonable that even if Jesus were in the Communion meal that you would eat it "in His memory."

Another response the Reformed Protestants give is to debunk Catholicism's reasons. Catholicism says that because Jesus says in John's gospel that you must eat His body, then the communion meal must be his body. The Reformed Protestants argue back that Catholics take this too literally. My reaction is that it's true that Jesus spoke in parables sometimes, but other times he really did mean things literally like the resurrection of his body. So just because the Reformed Protestants show possible weaknesses in Catholicism does not actually directly show that the "Reformed" version must be right. Just because Catholicism hasn't proved its case doesn't mean that the Reformed side has either.

Typically when we want to find out what an ancient religious community thought, we look at their writings. And the early Christians of the 1st to 2nd centuries AD - the time of the apostles or right after it - did produce writings commenting on religion. Does Reformed Protestantism have any solid, direct basis from these writings to show that they believed the Communion meal was "only" a symbol?

It seems instead that the first clear, recorded interpretation of Communion elements as "only" a symbol and not physically or spiritually Jesus' body was made in the rationalistic "Enlightenment Age" when Reformed Protestantism began - about 1400 years after the apostles' time. It looks rather then that this position is a "modern" or rationalistic re-interpretation of what Jesus said and not actually something that the apostles wrote or passed down.

Below you will find the Center for Reformed Theology's explanation that Calvin viewed the Communion meal's elements as not actually being Christ's body physically or spiritually like the Catholics and Lutherans taught:
============================================================
  • Calvin rejected any notion of a local presence of Christ in the Supper. Labeling the Lutheran notion of the ubiquity of Christ's body a "phantasm,"... Calvin's opponents, Westphal and Tileman Heshusius, accused him of ambiguity and subtlety. They sought a sacramental theory in concrete language but did not find it in Calvin. ...

    Calvin avoided the language of "physicality" employed by the Lutherans. Christ's body and blood were to be "understood in terms of Christ's act of reconciliation, not in themselves." Although the believer, through the Supper, possesses a true communion with Christ's natural body and blood, it is not in terms of substantiality but rather in terms of the spiritual, redemptive benefits inherent in the resurrected and ascended body of Christ. Hence, for Calvin, a local presence is not necessary. The body of Christ remains in heaven.
    ...
    Although, on one hand, Calvin denies the descent of Christ's body to us (absentia localis), he paradoxically speaks of such a descent by the Holy Spirit as the source of real presence (praesentia realis) in the Supper.

    http://www.reformed.org/webfiles/an...bfiles/antithesis/v2n2/ant_v2n2_presence.html
 
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AMR

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You might want to listen to this by Barcellos:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=8201311581710

See also:
http://heidelblog.net/2015/06/heidelberg-75-the-supper-is-more-than-a-memory-3/

http://heidelblog.net/2008/12/zwingli-and-the-reformed-confessions-on-the-supper/

http://heidelblog.net/2013/04/the-cruelty-of-nominalism-2/

http://heidelblog.net/2013/04/the-cruelty-of-nominalism-3/

Given that faith is the "mouth" by which we feed on Christ and I must eat and drink in faith for the spiritual nourishment of my soul. Christ is present instrumentally by the Spirit who works faith in Christ's people as they partake of this "visible word." By the Spirit, we are caught up into heaven where Christ's human nature is so that we may partake of his body and blood by our faith. This is a gross oversimplification, but I believe it represents what the Reformers taught. In the Westminster Standards there is undeniably a memorial aspect to the Supper but that memorial aspect exhausts neither the Supper nor the operation of the Spirit through the Supper. This accords well with our Confessions summary of the teachings of Scripture:

WCF 29.7:
"Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements, in this sacrament, (1 Cor. 11:28) do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally but spiritually, receive, and feed upon, Christ crucified, and all benefits of His death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses. (1 Cor. 10:16)"

The Supper is food for our souls, nourishing us, as in the Heidelberg Catechism #75: "that with His crucified body and shed blood He Himself feeds and nourishes my soul to everlasting life...."

Per the WLC, Q. 168. What is the Lord’s Supper?
A. The Lord’s Supper is a Sacrament of the New Testament, wherein, by giving and receiving bread and wine according to the appointment of Jesus Christ, his death is shewed forth; and they that worthily communicate feed upon his body and blood, to their spiritual nourishment and growth in grace; have their union and communion with him confirmed; testify and renew their thankfulness, and engagement to God, and their mutual love and fellowship each with other, as members of the same mystical body. Luke 22:20; Matt. 26:26-28; 1 Cor. 11:23-26; 1 Cor. 10:16; 1 Cor. 11:24; 1 Cor. 10:14-16, 21; 1 Cor. 10:17.

WLC Q. 170. How do they that worthily communicate in the Lord’s Supper feed upon the body and blood of Christ therein?
A. As the body and blood of Christ are not corporally or carnally present in, with, or under the bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper; and yet are spiritually present to the faith of the receiver, no less truly and really than the elements themselves are to their outward senses; so they that worthily communicate in the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, do therein feed upon the body and blood of Christ, not after a corporal or carnal, but in a spiritual manner; yet truly and really, while by faith they receive and apply unto themselves Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death. Acts 3:21; Matt. 26:26, 28; 1 Cor. 11:24-29; 1 Cor. 10:16.

LBCF Chapter 30:
CHAPTER 30: OF THE LORD’S SUPPER
Paragraph 1. The supper of the Lord Jesus was instituted by him the same night wherein he was
betrayed, to be observed in his churches, unto the end of the world, for the perpetual remembrance,
and showing to all the world the sacrifice of himself in his death, confirmation of the faith of
believers in all the benefits thereof, their spiritual nourishment, and growth in him, their further
engagement in, and to all duties which they owe to him; and to be a bond and pledge of their
communion with him, and with each other.
1 1 Cor. 11:23-26
2 1 Cor. 10:16,17,21

Paragraph 7. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do
then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive,
and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being
then not corporally or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as
the elements themselves are to their outward senses.
11 1 Cor. 10:16, 11:23-26

Rather than what others say Calvin says, I prefer to read what the man has to say directly about the Supper:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom39.xviii.iii.html

Let's settle it firmly in our minds that the Lord's Supper was not given to be a means either of justification or of conversion. It was never meant to give grace where there is no grace already, or to provide pardon when pardon is not already enjoyed. It cannot possibly provide what is lacking with the absence of repentance to God, and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord's Supper is meant to increase and help the grace that a man has, but not to impart the grace that he has not. The simplest statement of the benefit which a truehearted communicant may expect to receive from the Lord's Supper…is the strengthening and refreshing of our souls.
 
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JM

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Looks like I’m a little late getting into the discussion and you have plenty of answers so I’ll add just a little. I’ll answer as a Reformed Baptist, not just a Calvinist, but a fella who takes the Reformed Confessions and Calvin pretty seriously. I must recommend you read The Institutes of the Christian Religion Book Fourth chapter 17;

9. This confirmed from Cyril, and by a familiar example. How the flesh of Christ gives life, and what the nature of our communion with Christ.

19. The nature of the true presence of Christ in the Supper. The true and substantial communion of the body and blood of the Lord. This orthodox view assailed by turbulent spirits.

28. The authority of the fathers not in favor of these errors as to Christ’s (physical) presence (in the elements). Augustine opposed to them.

29. Refutation of the invisible presence maintained by opponents. Refutation from Tertullian, from a saying of Christ after his resurrection, from the definition of a true body, and from different passages of Scripture.

Etc.​

(1) Does "Reformed" Protestantism (Calvinism, Evangelicals, etc.) have a real basis in early Christian traditions and writings to claim that the Communion meal is "only" a symbol and to reject Jesus' real presence in it?

Calvin’s Eucharistic theology does indeed deny the physical presence of Christ but not the real presence of Christ. In The Institutes of the Christian Religion (ICR from now on) Calvin argues from the church fathers and scripture for the real presence and warns that Christ’s body is not invisible, or hidden in the elements. By faith we partake of Christ’s body and blood, feed in a very real sense upon Christ’s flesh and are spiritually nourished. Calvin denies the memorial view held by Bullinger and the Anabaptists. (Modern American Baptists also hold to the this view.)

My emphasis in bold.

Quotes from BK 4, CH. 17. PAR. 16: Some, who see that the analogy between the sign and the thing signified cannot be destroyed without destroying the truth of the sacrament, admit that the bread of the Supper is truly the substance of an earthly and corruptible element, and cannot suffer any change in itself, but must have the body of Christ included under it. If they would explain this to mean, that when the bread is held forth in the sacrament, an exhibition of the body is annexed, because the truth is inseparable from its sign, I would not greatly object. But because fixing the body itself in the bread, they attach to it an ubiquity contrary to its nature, and by adding under the bread, will have it that it lies hid under it, I must employ a short time in exposing their craft, and dragging them forth from their concealments. Here, however, it is not my intention professedly to discuss the whole case; I mean only to lay the foundations of a discussion which will afterwards follow in its own place. They insist, then, that the body of Christ is invisible and immense, so that it may be hid under bread, because they think that there is no other way by which they can communicate with him than by his descending into the bread, though they do not comprehend the mode of descent by which he raises us up to himself. They employ all the colours they possibly can, but after they have said all, it is sufficiently apparent that they insist on the local presence of Christ. How so? Because they cannot conceive any other participation of flesh and blood than that which consists either in local conjunction and contact, or in some gross method of enclosing.

17. Some, in order obstinately to maintain the error which they have once rashly adopted, hesitate not to assert that the dimensions of Christ’s flesh are not more circumscribed than those of heaven and earth. His birth as an infant, his growth, his extension on the cross, his confinement in the sepulchre, were effected, they say, by a kind of dispensation, that he might perform the offices of being born, of dying, and of other human acts: his being seen with his wonted bodily appearance after the resurrection, his ascension into heaven, his appearance, after his ascension, to Stephen and Paul, were the effect of the same dispensation, that it might be made apparent to the eye of man that he was constituted King in heaven. What is this but to call forth Marcion from his grave? For there cannot be a doubt that the body of Christ, if so constituted, was a phantasm, or was phantastical. Some employ a rather more subtle evasion, That the body which is given in the sacrament is glorious and immortal, and that, therefore, there is no absurdity in its being contained under the sacrament in various places, or in no place, and in no form. But, I ask, what did Christ give to his disciples the day before he suffered? Do not the words say that he gave the mortal body, which was to be delivered shortly after? But, say they, he had previously manifested his glory to the three disciples on the mount (Mt. 17:2). This is true; but his purpose was to give them for the time a taste of immortality. Still they cannot find there a twofold body, but only the one which he had assumed, arrayed in new glory. When he distributed his body in the first Supper, the hour was at hand in which he was “stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted” (Isa. 53:4). So far was he from intending at that time to exhibit the glory of his resurrection. And here what a door is opened to Marcion, if the body of Christ was seen humble and mortal in one place, glorious and immortal in another! And yet, if their opinion is well-founded, the same thing happens every day, because they are forced to admit that the body of Christ, which is in itself visible, lurks invisibly under the symbol of bread. And yet those who send forth such monstrous dogmas, so far from being ashamed at the disgrace, assail us with virulent invectives for not subscribing to them.

18. But assuming that the body and blood of Christ are attached to the bread and wine, then the one must necessarily be dissevered from the other. For as the bread is given separately from the cup, so the body, united to the bread, must be separated from the blood, included in the cup. For since they affirm that the body is in the bread, and the blood is in the cup, while the bread and wine are, in regard to space, at some distance from each other, they cannot, by any quibble, evade the conclusion that the body must be separated from the blood. Their usual pretence—viz. that the blood is in the body, and the body again in the blood, by what they call concomitance, is more than frivolous, since the symbols in which they are included are thus distinguished. But if we are carried to heaven with our eyes and minds, that we may there behold Christ in the glory of his kingdom, as the symbols invite us to him in his integrity, so, under the symbol of bread, we must feed on his body, and, under the symbol of wine, drink separately of his blood, and thereby have the full enjoyment of him. For though he withdrew his flesh from us, and with his body ascended to heaven, he, however, sits at the right hand of the Father; that is, he reigns in power and majesty, and the glory of the Father. This kingdom is not limited by any intervals of space, nor circumscribed by any dimensions. Christ can exert his energy wherever he pleases, in earth and heaven, can manifest his presence by the exercise of his power, can always be present with his people, breathing into them his own life, can live in them, sustain, confirm, and invigorate them, and preserve them safe, just as if he were with them in the body; in fine, can feed them with his own body, communion with which he transfuses into them. After this manner, the body and blood of Christ are exhibited to us in the sacrament.

19: The presence of Christ in the Supper we must hold to be such as neither affixes him to the element of bread, nor encloses him in bread, nor circumscribes him in any way (this would obviously detract from his celestial glory); and it must, moreover, be such as neither divests him of his just dimensions, nor dissevers him by differences of place, nor assigns to him a body of boundless dimensions, diffused through heaven and earth.

But when these absurdities are discarded, I willingly admit anything which helps to express the true and substantial communication of the body and blood of the Lord, as exhibited to believers under the sacred symbols of the Supper, understanding that they are received not by the imagination or intellect merely, but are enjoyed in reality as the food of eternal life.

So, I think we can say that Calvin rejected the idea that Christ was found physically in the elements but confirmed the real presence of Christ at the Lord’s Supper and this is consistent with the Church Fathers. At this point I would recommend reading through Book Four, Chapter 17 to get a better idea of Reformed Eucharist theology.

Link provided: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.vi.xviii.html

Albi, I believe Cranmer and Calvin held to almost identical doctrines concerning the Lord’s Supper? I haven’t read up on Cranmer of late but I do recall some 39 Article fellas telling me as much.

Reformed Baptists are in agreement with Calvin. From the Baptist Catechism;

Q. How do baptism and the Lords supper become effectual means of salvation?


A. Baptism and the Lords supper become effectual means of salvation, not for any virtue in them, or in him that doth administer them, but only by the blessing of Christ (1 Pet. 3:21; Mt. 3:11; 1 Cor. 3:6, 7), and the working of the Spirit in those that by faith receive them (1 Cor. 12:3; Mt. 28:19).

A portion of Benjamin Beddome Exposition of the Catechism follows;

Doth the efficacy of the sacraments depend upon the blessing and presence of Christ? Yes. Lo I am with you always. Matthew 28:20

And upon the cooperating influences of the Spirit? Yes. By one Spirit we are all baptized. 1 Cor. 12:13

And are they only effectual to those who by faith receive them? Yes. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

Q. 102. What is the Lord’s Supper?

A. The Lord’s Supper is an ordnance of the New Testament, instituted by Jesus Christ; wherein by giving and receiving bread and wine, according to his appointment his death is shown fourth, and the worthy receivers are, not after a corporal and carnal manner, but by faith made partakers of his body and blood, with his benefits, to their spiritual nourishment and growth in grace.

A portion of Benjamin Beddome Exposition of the Catechism follows;

Doth the bread signify the body of Christ? Yes. This is my body. 1 Cor. 11:24

Doth the wine signify the blood of Christ? Yes. This is cup is the New Testament in my blood. Luke 22:20

Is the doctrine then of Christ crucified meat and drink to a believing soul? Yes. My flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. John 6:55

And are we to feed upon that doctrine? Yes. He that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:57

As you can see the Reformed voice is united. We view the real presence of Christ at the Lord’s Supper but deny the physical presence.

Now, I would be interested in seeing some quotations from the church fathers that affirm the Eastern Orthodox denominational view. That would be a good discussion.

Yours in the Lord,

Jm
 
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JM

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rakovsky

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JM and AMR,

Since this is not a debate forum, what I will do is respond to your discussions in the messages above. You will be free to respond to my reply as much as you wish, as well as to discuss the Second main question. Then, I will only write about the second question. This way you will be able to fully explain your views and we will not be caught in a debate.

Peace.
 
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rakovsky

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Thanks for your reply, AMR.

As you know, I am looking for something definitive in early Christian writings that gives the Reformed view that the food in the Communion meal does not contain Christ's body.

Would you be able to give me some quotations from the sources above you wish to draw my attention to?

Sure, I can see that faith could be called a "mouth" to feed on Christ. And I understand you repeat Calvin's explanation for Communion when you say:
Given that faith is the "mouth" by which we feed on Christ and I must eat and drink in faith for the spiritual nourishment of my soul. Christ is present instrumentally by the Spirit who works faith in Christ's people as they partake of this "visible word." By the Spirit, we are caught up into heaven where Christ's human nature is so that we may partake of his body and blood by our faith. This is a gross oversimplification, but I believe it represents what the Reformers taught. In the Westminster Standards there is undeniably a memorial aspect to the Supper but that memorial aspect exhausts neither the Supper nor the operation of the Spirit through the Supper. This accords well with our Confessions summary of the teachings of Scripture:

WCF 29.7:
"Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements, in this sacrament, (1 Cor. 11:28) do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally but spiritually, receive, and feed upon, Christ crucified, and all benefits of His death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses. (1 Cor. 10:16)"
I notice that this differs from the Lutheran belief, in which the feeding has a corporal element, as the spiritual body is received through the physical mouth with the elements.
Sure, I understand you give the Calvinist view here that the food elements themselves are only symbols and that the body of Christ is only taken through the work of faith, not actually being in the food.
The Supper is food for our souls, nourishing us, as in the Heidelberg Catechism #75: "that with His crucified body and shed blood He Himself feeds and nourishes my soul to everlasting life...."

Per the WLC, Q. 168. What is the Lord’s Supper?
A. The Lord’s Supper is a Sacrament of the New Testament, wherein, by giving and receiving bread and wine according to the appointment of Jesus Christ, his death is shewed forth; and they that worthily communicate feed upon his body and blood, to their spiritual nourishment and growth in grace; have their union and communion with him confirmed; testify and renew their thankfulness, and engagement to God, and their mutual love and fellowship each with other, as members of the same mystical body. Luke 22:20; Matt. 26:26-28; 1 Cor. 11:23-26; 1 Cor. 10:16; 1 Cor. 11:24; 1 Cor. 10:14-16, 21; 1 Cor. 10:17.

WLC Q. 170. How do they that worthily communicate in the Lord’s Supper feed upon the body and blood of Christ therein?
A. As the body and blood of Christ are not corporally or carnally present in, with, or under the bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper; and yet are spiritually present to the faith of the receiver, no less truly and really than the elements themselves are to their outward senses; so they that worthily communicate in the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, do therein feed upon the body and blood of Christ, not after a corporal or carnal, but in a spiritual manner; yet truly and really, while by faith they receive and apply unto themselves Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death. Acts 3:21; Matt. 26:26, 28; 1 Cor. 11:24-29; 1 Cor. 10:16.

LBCF Chapter 30:
CHAPTER 30: OF THE LORD’S SUPPER
Paragraph 1. The supper of the Lord Jesus was instituted by him the same night wherein he was
betrayed, to be observed in his churches, unto the end of the world, for the perpetual remembrance,
and showing to all the world the sacrifice of himself in his death, confirmation of the faith of
believers in all the benefits thereof, their spiritual nourishment, and growth in him, their further
engagement in, and to all duties which they owe to him; and to be a bond and pledge of their
communion with him, and with each other.
1 1 Cor. 11:23-26
2 1 Cor. 10:16,17,21

Paragraph 7. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do
then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive,
and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being
then not corporally or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as
the elements themselves are to their outward senses.
11 1 Cor. 10:16, 11:23-26
http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/1 Cor 11.23-26
(Yes, I don't see anything above that mentions the body of Christ being in the bread, only a denial that Christ's body is "carnally" in the bread and a mention that the body of Christ - per Calvin still in heaven - is somehow spiritually "present" to believers, with no mention of a spiritual presence in the bread.)

Rather than what others say Calvin says, I prefer to read what the man has to say directly about the Supper:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom39.xviii.iii.html

Let's settle it firmly in our minds that the Lord's Supper was not given to be a means either of justification or of conversion. It was never meant to give grace where there is no grace already, or to provide pardon when pardon is not already enjoyed. It cannot possibly provide what is lacking with the absence of repentance to God, and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord's Supper is meant to increase and help the grace that a man has, but not to impart the grace that he has not. The simplest statement of the benefit which a truehearted communicant may expect to receive from the Lord's Supper…is the strengthening and refreshing of our souls.
It seems to me that if the believer is united with Christ there is some "justification" given to the believer in that union with Christ can help make a person righteous (ie. "just").
In any case, I can rationally conceive that during the "process" of the ritual the believer is united in his spirit with Jesus (who is in heaven) with the power of the Holy Spirit. This I think is the basic idea of Calvin on the Eucharist.
But I think that the Eucharistic ritual itself was presented in the NT as more than simply a person believing and being spiritually untied as a result, like when Paul warned that people who partake unworthily would be harmed. (1 Cor. 11)
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
In the Calvinist scheme, a nonbeliever who drinks the cup unworthily would not have faith and thus would not be actually participating in the Supper or actually taking in the Lord's presence, since the presence has nothing to do with the bread or act of eating itself other than the bread serves as a symbol. A nonbeliever who symbolically eats the bread ultimately would not be eating anything of a spiritual nature in the Calvinist scheme, and so it is not clear why he would be doing so to any effect for himself, including harm.
Perhaps the Reformed can reply that it is still harmful to take even a symbol of Christ unworthily.

In any case, I can conceptualize the Calvinist scheme by itself as mentally rational, whereby the person on earth is united with Christ in heaven through the Spirit's power.
 
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rakovsky

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Thanks for writing, JM.
I must recommend you read The Institutes of the Christian Religion Book Fourth chapter 17;

9. This confirmed from Cyril, and by a familiar example. How the flesh of Christ gives life, and what the nature of our communion with Christ.​

Cyril did not mention the communion meal in this passage's discussion. I did not really notice anything controversial there either.

19. The nature of the true presence of Christ in the Supper. The true and substantial communion of the body and blood of the Lord. This orthodox view assailed by turbulent spirits.
His claim is basically that if Christ were in the bread it would circumscribe and limit Christ, and that He can't be all over the place at once because He is human. The Orthodox response is that Christ's body is transfigured, so normal laws don't apply.
28. The authority of the fathers not in favor of these errors as to Christ’s (physical) presence (in the elements). Augustine opposed to them.
Calvin quoted:
They again object that Augustine says distinctly that the body of Christ falls upon the earth, and enters the mouth. But this is in the same sense in which he affirms that it is consumed, for he conjoins both at the same time. There is nothing repugnant to this in his saying that the bread is consumed after the mystery is performed: for he had said a little before, ìAs these things are known to men, when they are done by men they may receive honour as being religious, but not as being wonderfulî (De Trinit. Lib. 3 c. 10). His meaning is not different in the passage which our opponents too rashly appropriate to themselvesóviz. that Christ in a manner carried himself in his own hands, when he held out the mystical bread to his disciples. For by interposing the expression, in a manner, he declares that he was not really or truly included under the bread.
Well, first I see a conflict, because Calvin doesn't teach that Christ's body "falls upon the earth", since Calvin taught that in fact it stays up in heaven (differing from Catholicism on this point). Besides, saying that Christ carried himself "in a manner" does not disprove the Lutheran or Catholic view, because they agree, and just think that the "manner" of carrying is one of outward appearance of bread. It doesn't deny Christ's inner presence in the bread.

29. Refutation of the invisible presence maintained by opponents. Refutation from Tertullian, from a saying of Christ after his resurrection, from the definition of a true body, and from different passages of Scripture.
Here Calvin writes:
"Again, if the body of Christ is so multiform and diversified, that it appears in one place, and in another is invisible, where is there anything of the nature of body with its proper dimensions, and where is its unity? Far more correct is Tertullian, who contends that the body of Christ was natural and real, because its figure is set before us in the mystery of the Supper, as a pledge and assurance of spiritual life (Tertull. Cont. Marc. Lib. 4).61"
But in fact, despite being a human body, Christ really could become invisible as per Luke 24's story of His vanishing before the Emmaus travelers. Tertullian's statement that Christ's figure is set before us in the Supper as a pledge is not necessarily a conflict with the belief in a real spiritual presence in the bread itself, since as Hedrick explained in the "Creedal" Reformed/Presbyterian section (on a thread with a similar name to ours), something can be both real and symbolic of that reality simultaneously.

To show this, one can see how another Church father, Eusebius did think that in the case of the Eucharist this was a symbol where form and substance (Christ's) went together. Eusebius rejected that paintings of Jesus were images of Him, as the theologian Mazza explains, because: "There could be no true image capable of representing the actual features of Christ. The Son is an image of God, but in this kind of image form and substance go together... In [Eusebius'] view, the true image of Christ is not to be found in a painting, but in the Eucharist." (SOURCE: https://books.google.com/books?id=r...EIVzAJ#v=onepage&q=eusebiuseucharist&f=false)

Further, if we read the rest of Tertullian's quote in Book 4, it turns out that Tertullian was actually asserting that Christ did not just "pretend" that the bread was his body:

Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, This is my body, that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body. An empty thing, or phantom, is incapable of a figure. If, however, (as Marcion might say,) He pretended the bread was His body, because He lacked the truth of bodily substance, it follows that He must have given bread for us. It would contribute very well to the support of Marcion’s theory of a phantom body... [~TERTULLIAN, SOURCE: http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/did-tertullian-and-st-augustine-deny-the-real-presence ]

Tertullian is saying that if Christ was only pretending that the bread was his body like Marcion said, then he was only really giving us bread in reality. But Tertullian instead rejected Marcion's theory, which means that Christ was not just giving us bread or only pretending to give his body. Marcion thought Jesus had just a phantom body. Tha would mean the Eucharist was just a phantom too. But Tertullian says "No" to this, and by analogy concludes that this was not just a phantom body in the bread. Just as a real physical body in Christ correlates to a real body in the bread so that it is not just "bread".

Calvin here again mentions Tertullian here in Section 29.:
The hope of our resurrection, and ascension to heaven, is, that Christ rose again and ascended, and, as Tertullian says (De Resurrect. Carnis), "Carried an earnest of our resurrection along with him into heaven." Morever, how weak and fragile would this hope be, had not this very flesh of ours in Christ been truly raised up, and entered into the kingdom of heaven. But the essential properties of a body are to be confined by space, to have dimension and form.
However, Tertullian here is not specifically talking about the Eucharist. Calvin's decision that "the essential properties of a body are to be confined by space, to have dimension and form" is a naturalistic or absolutist interpretation of physics and bodies. Is Jesus' body confined by space when it is in heaven, for example? Does it have a physical, visible "form" there? It doesn't seem to account for the transformation of Jesus' body such that it no longer needs to follow physical laws like gravity, physical visibility, or spacial confinement, as when He ascended, vanished, and passed through walls in Luke 24.

I will continue with the rest of your well researched post later, JM.

Peace.
 
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rakovsky

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JM,

When you mention the "real presence", Calvin meant that it occurs during the ritual, where the Holy Spirit unites the believer with Christ who is in heaven, as opposed to believing in the presence in the Communion food like Luther did:
Calvin’s Eucharistic theology does indeed deny the physical presence of Christ but not the real presence of Christ. In The Institutes of the Christian Religion (ICR from now on) Calvin argues from the church fathers and scripture for the real presence and warns that Christ’s body is not invisible, or hidden in the elements. By faith we partake of Christ’s body and blood, feed in a very real sense upon Christ’s flesh and are spiritually nourished. Calvin denies the memorial view held by Bullinger and the Anabaptists. (Modern American Baptists also hold to the this view.)

Quotes from BK 4, CH. 17. PAR. 16: Some, who see that the analogy between the sign and the thing signified cannot be destroyed without destroying the truth of the sacrament, admit that the bread of the Supper is truly the substance of an earthly and corruptible element, and cannot suffer any change in itself, but must have the body of Christ included under it. If they would explain this to mean, that when the bread is held forth in the sacrament, an exhibition of the body is annexed, because the truth is inseparable from its sign, I would not greatly object. But because fixing the body itself in the bread, they attach to it an ubiquity contrary to its nature, and by adding under the bread, will have it that it lies hid under it, I must employ a short time in exposing their craft, and dragging them forth from their concealments. Here, however, it is not my intention professedly to discuss the whole case; I mean only to lay the foundations of a discussion which will afterwards follow in its own place. They insist, then, that the body of Christ is invisible and immense, so that it may be hid under bread, because they think that there is no other way by which they can communicate with him than by his descending into the bread, though they do not comprehend the mode of descent by which he raises us up to himself. They employ all the colours they possibly can, but after they have said all, it is sufficiently apparent that they insist on the local presence of Christ. How so? Because they cannot conceive any other participation of flesh and blood than that which consists either in local conjunction and contact, or in some gross method of enclosing.
I don't have a problem conceiving of Christ as invisible in his body sometimes, unless I take a naturalistic/materialistic view. In Luke 24 and John 20, Jesus goes invisible, moves through closed doors and walls, etc. Likewise, being the eternal "Logos" who made the world, I don't see a problem with Him becoming "immense", as normal physics laws would not need to apply. It seems rather to me that Calvin thinks in terms of a naturalistic logic or sense of reasoning. This is the kind of thing that I have in mind in my title question.

17. Some, in order obstinately to maintain the error which they have once rashly adopted, hesitate not to assert that the dimensions of Christ’s flesh are not more circumscribed than those of heaven and earth. His birth as an infant, his growth, his extension on the cross, his confinement in the sepulchre, were effected, they say, by a kind of dispensation, that he might perform the offices of being born, of dying, and of other human acts: his being seen with his wonted bodily appearance after the resurrection, his ascension into heaven, his appearance, after his ascension, to Stephen and Paul, were the effect of the same dispensation, that it might be made apparent to the eye of man that he was constituted King in heaven. What is this but to call forth Marcion from his grave? For there cannot be a doubt that the body of Christ, if so constituted, was a phantasm, or was phantastical.

OK, Calvin thinks that saying that saying that Christ's body had a dispensation when it was on the cross treats it as a phantasm. Orthodox would not call it a dispensation, but I think traditional Christians would normally say that Jesus' body acquired divine attributes, like immortality. This is how they get around a contradiction between seeing Jesus as at one point mortal and just like other human bodies, and then immortal and quite different from having a normal body exactly in the normal state of humans.

Some employ a rather more subtle evasion, That the body which is given in the sacrament is glorious and immortal, and that, therefore, there is no absurdity in its being contained under the sacrament in various places, or in no place, and in no form. But, I ask, what did Christ give to his disciples the day before he suffered? Do not the words say that he gave the mortal body, which was to be delivered shortly after?
He did not specify that the body he gave at that moment and in the form he gave it was "mortal".

But, say they, he had previously manifested his glory to the three disciples on the mount (Mt. 17:2). This is true; but his purpose was to give them for the time a taste of immortality. Still they cannot find there a twofold body, but only the one which he had assumed, arrayed in new glory. When he distributed his body in the first Supper, the hour was at hand in which he was “stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted” (Isa. 53:4).
Sure, that hour was at hand in which he was stricken, but it doesn't mean that his body did not have divine properties anymore, since the transfiguration already occurred. Whether or not he was later stricken He could still be spiritually present in the food, considering his divine characteristics and abilities.
This seems to be more use of logic and reasoning, rather than pointing to direct explanations in the early Christian writings. This is not to say that reasoning and logic must be wrong as tools for interpreting, just that this looks to be the basis for the Calvinist approach.

So far was he from intending at that time to exhibit the glory of his resurrection. And here what a door is opened to Marcion, if the body of Christ was seen humble and mortal in one place, glorious and immortal in another!
Even Chalcedon sees Christ's body that way. In one place it was lashed, another raised.

And yet, if their opinion is well-founded, the same thing happens every day, because they are forced to admit that the body of Christ, which is in itself visible, lurks invisibly under the symbol of bread. And yet those who send forth such monstrous dogmas, so far from being ashamed at the disgrace, assail us with virulent invectives for not subscribing to them.

18. But assuming that the body and blood of Christ are attached to the bread and wine, then the one must necessarily be dissevered from the other. For as the bread is given separately from the cup, so the body, united to the bread, must be separated from the blood, included in the cup.
Orthodox mix them.
For since they affirm that the body is in the bread, and the blood is in the cup, while the bread and wine are, in regard to space, at some distance from each other, they cannot, by any quibble, evade the conclusion that the body must be separated from the blood. Their usual pretence—viz. that the blood is in the body, and the body again in the blood, by what they call concomitance, is more than frivolous, since the symbols in which they are included are thus distinguished. But if we are carried to heaven with our eyes and minds, that we may there behold Christ in the glory of his kingdom, as the symbols invite us to him in his integrity, so, under the symbol of bread, we must feed on his body, and, under the symbol of wine, drink separately of his blood, and thereby have the full enjoyment of him. For though he withdrew his flesh from us, and with his body ascended to heaven, he, however, sits at the right hand of the Father; that is, he reigns in power and majesty, and the glory of the Father. This kingdom is not limited by any intervals of space, nor circumscribed by any dimensions. Christ can exert his energy wherever he pleases, in earth and heaven, can manifest his presence by the exercise of his power, can always be present with his people, breathing into them his own life, can live in them, sustain, confirm, and invigorate them, and preserve them safe, just as if he were with them in the body; in fine, can feed them with his own body, communion with which he transfuses into them. After this manner, the body and blood of Christ are exhibited to us in the sacrament.

19: The presence of Christ in the Supper we must hold to be such as neither affixes him to the element of bread, nor encloses him in bread, nor circumscribes him in any way (this would obviously detract from his celestial glory); and it must, moreover, be such as neither divests him of his just dimensions, nor dissevers him by differences of place, nor assigns to him a body of boundless dimensions, diffused through heaven and earth.

But when these absurdities are discarded, I willingly admit anything which helps to express the true and substantial communication of the body and blood of the Lord, as exhibited to believers under the sacred symbols of the Supper, understanding that they are received not by the imagination or intellect merely, but are enjoyed in reality as the food of eternal life.
Yes, Schaeff cited these passages above to contrast him with Luther on this point, as I cited on the thread in the Reformed/Presbyterian section of the forum. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc7.ii.vii.xi.html)
For Calvin, the "presence" is confined by physics or staying up in heaven and the believer has to be "carried" up to there to experience this.

So, I think we can say that Calvin rejected the idea that Christ was found physically in the elements but confirmed the real presence of Christ at the Lord’s Supper
I don't think he used the term "real presence". In Calvin's idea, the "presence" can at most said to be "experienced" during the ritual, but not at the ritual in the assembly where the ritual occurs.

and this is consistent with the Church Fathers. At this point I would recommend reading through Book Four, Chapter 17 to get a better idea of Reformed Eucharist theology.

Link provided: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.vi.xviii.html

Albi, I believe Cranmer and Calvin held to almost identical doctrines concerning the Lord’s Supper? I haven’t read up on Cranmer of late but I do recall some 39 Article fellas telling me as much.
I think you are asking Albion a question?
I found this:
"Cranmer was indeed a second generation reformer, likened to Calvin and Bucer, though his theology of the Eucharist, even though it bore the marks of Calvin and Bucer, was in essence distinct and unique,"
(http://www.markedbyteachers.com/gcs...omas-cranmer-s-theology-of-the-eucharist.html)

Cranmer sought to defend clearly his understanding of the presence of the Lord in the Eucharist: “my meaning is, that the force, the grace, the virtue [see below] and benefit of Christ’s body that was crucified for us, and of his blood that was shed for us, be really and effectually present with all them that duly receive the sacrament: but all this I understand of his spiritual presence...” (https://davidbawks.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/cranmers-doctrine-of-the-eucharist.pdf)

Reformed Baptists are in agreement with Calvin. From the Baptist Catechism;

Q. How do baptism and the Lords supper become effectual means of salvation?


A. Baptism and the Lords supper become effectual means of salvation, not for any virtue in them, or in him that doth administer them, but only by the blessing of Christ (1 Pet. 3:21; Mt. 3:11; 1 Cor. 3:6, 7), and the working of the Spirit in those that by faith receive them (1 Cor. 12:3; Mt. 28:19).
FWIW, Calvin I read did talk about "virtue" in the Eucharistic ritual or receiving power through Christ's virtues through it. (I can't find where now)

A portion of Benjamin Beddome Exposition of the Catechism follows;

Doth the efficacy of the sacraments depend upon the blessing and presence of Christ? Yes. Lo I am with you always. Matthew 28:20

And upon the cooperating influences of the Spirit? Yes. By one Spirit we are all baptized. 1 Cor. 12:13

And are they only effectual to those who by faith receive them? Yes. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

Q. 102. What is the Lord’s Supper?

A. The Lord’s Supper is an ordnance of the New Testament, instituted by Jesus Christ;
Didn't Calvin consider it a "sacrament"?

wherein by giving and receiving bread and wine, according to his appointment his death is shown fourth, and the worthy receivers are, not after a corporal and carnal manner, but by faith made partakers of his body and blood, with his benefits, to their spiritual nourishment and growth in grace.

A portion of Benjamin Beddome Exposition of the Catechism follows;

Doth the bread signify the body of Christ? Yes. This is my body. 1 Cor. 11:24

Doth the wine signify the blood of Christ? Yes. This is cup is the New Testament in my blood. Luke 22:20

Is the doctrine then of Christ crucified meat and drink to a believing soul? Yes. My flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. John 6:55

And are we to feed upon that doctrine? Yes. He that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:57

As you can see the Reformed voice is united. We view the real presence of Christ at the Lord’s Supper but deny the physical presence.
Perhaps even the Reformed are not united, as you said: "Calvin denies the memorial view held by Bullinger and the Anabaptists. (Modern American Baptists also hold to the this view.)"
There is an old division going back to Zwingli's difference with Calvin. I think Zwingli wouldn't even accept the idea of believers spiritually uniting with Christ or meeting His "presence" during the Eucharist meal, right?

Besides, the Center for Reformed Theology explains why theoretically Calvin did not hold to a "real" presence in the dictionary definition of that word, only a common vulgar meaning:
In normal speech "real" connotes something that is existent, objective, and in the external order. When used with reference to the Supper, "real presence" implies "local presence," and, of course, this is denied by Calvin. So then, Calvin would allow the phrase praesentia realis only if "real" was used for "true" as is sometimes the case in common or vulgar parlance. (http://www.reformed.org/webfiles/an...bfiles/antithesis/v2n2/ant_v2n2_presence.html)

Since Christ in Calvin's view is still staying up in heaven, and the believer is physically still on earth where the ritual occurs, then in what sense is Christ "present" in the ritual? It is only "during" the ritual that the believer is made present to Christ and thus when the believer is "carried" to heaven experiences Christ's "presence" up in heaven.

Finally, you asked:
Now, I would be interested in seeing some quotations from the church fathers that affirm the Eastern Orthodox denominational view. That would be a good discussion.

Yours in the Lord,

Jm
Of course there are many quotations that Lutherans, Orthodox, and Catholics point to. A few I came across while discussing the topic on CF were:

Augustine's discussion on the Last Supper and the Eucharist in 1 Cor. 11:24 [“Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you] (see also Luke 22:1), Augustine wrote: "How this ['And he was carried in his own hands'] should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. FOR CHRIST WAS CARRIED IN HIS OWN HANDS, WHEN, REFERRING TO HIS OWN BODY, HE SAID: 'THIS IS MY BODY.' FOR HE CARRIED THAT BODY IN HIS HANDS." (Psalms 33:1:10)

Justin Martyr wrote in the 2nd century:
"For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

What is the "food consecrated by the Word of prayer"? That is the food laying on the altar table. It says that this food is Jesus' flesh. It does not say that it is "symbolically" Jesus' flesh, so the plain, meaning is that this food is Jesus' flesh, not "common bread", which he denies.​

St. Irenaeus wrote in the second century:
"For just as the bread which comes from the earth, having received the invocation of God, is no longer ordinary bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, so our bodies, having received the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, because they have the hope of the resurrection."

The bread from the earth
Whole-Grain-Bread-200x200-50x50.jpg
, he says, is the Eucharist and has two realities - earthly and heavenly - and he draws an analogy to our physical bodies being no longer corruptible. In Calvin's scheme, the bread itself does not have a "heavenly reality". For Calvin, the bread put on plates in the ritual is just a "token".​
 
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rakovsky

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From here, you are free to respond to my comments above. For my part, I will move to the Second Question:

(2) Does Protestantism have a clear, direct basis in those early traditions and writings to reject the special respect and claimed miraculous properties of holy relics?

If a holy person or Catholic saint gave people his clothes for healing or other miracles, I think the Reformed would take a dim view of this. They would also be very skeptical if people kept or used, say, clothes from Peter or Paul and treated them like "holy" objects.

I think the Reformed reasoning would be that objects are not "holy". It would add that faith can be part of miracles and people can pray and God can make miracles, but it doesn't have anything to do with objects or holy peoples' physical presence or bodies.

In Acts 19:11-12, it says:
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

At face value, this suggests that you could actually take clothes from a holy person like Paul and they could serve to cure illnesses or drive out demons.

The[Protestant] Pulpit commentary says:
It might well be the Divine purpose, in the case of both Peter and Paul, to invest with such extraordinary power the very persons of the apostles who were to stand forth as his messengers and preach in his Name. In St. Paul this parity of miraculous energy stamped his apostleship with an authority equal to that of St. Peter.

However, this does not really address the potential contradiction between the Reformed looking down on caring about holy peoples' clothes and Christians using them in Acts 19 for healing.

So this goes back to the question of whether there are early Christian writings against caring about holy peoples' clothes, bones, etc.
 
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hedrick

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The bread from the earth, he says, is the Eucharist and has two realities - earthly and heavenly - and he draws an analogy to our physical bodies being no longer corruptible. In Calvin's scheme, the bread itself does not have a "heavenly reality". For Calvin, the bread put on plates in the ritual is just a "token".

What do you think “heavenly reality” means? I would assume “heavenly” in this context means spiritual. I don’t think there’s as sharp a difference between that and symbolism as you seem to think. For a physical thing to show a spiritual reality seems like symbolism.

I also think you’re overreacting to Calvin’s statement that we’re brought up to heaven, and getting from it an implication that he denies Jesus’ spiritual presence with us on earth. I think this is taking symbolic language too literally. After all, heaven isn’t really “up there.” When Calvin speaks of being being lifted up to Christ, he is using symbolic language (we don’t, after all, rise up from our chairs) to speak of being united to the risen Christ. This is a spiritual reality, not a geographical one.

One thing that is clear in Calvin is that our union with Christ is through the Holy Spirit. This is part of what gives the appearance of denying Christ’s presence. If you take his language too literally, you get an image of Christ sitting up in heaven, with only the Holy Spirit connecting us. But I think this is a misreading of his intent. I don’t believe Calvin conceptualized Christ’s heavenly existence as separated from us in that way. Furthermore, that Christ’s presence is mediated by the Holy Spirit is not unique to Calvin. Catholic (http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wor...the-eucharist-basic-questions-and-answers.cfm) and Orthodox (http://www.monachos.net/conversation/topic/6512-an-orthodox-statement-on-the-eucharist/)

From the 2nd reference: “The bread and the wine are no longer understood with respect to their natural properties but with respect to Christ’s deified human body in which they have been assumed through the action of the Holy Spirit. As in Christology the two natures are united hypostatically, so in the Eucharist Christ’s exalted human body and the “antitypes” (St. Basil, Anaphora) of bread and wine are united sacramentally through the act of the Holy Spirit.” Note that antitype is precisely the language of symbolism.

I’m not saying Calvin would completely agree with this. But he agrees on making the Holy Spirit the agent through which we have union with Christ.

Perhaps the most serious potential for disagreement is in fact on the role of the Holy Spirit. For Calvin, the core of Christianity is the “unio mystica,” the “mystic union” between us and Christ. But this happens through the activity of the Holy Spirit. The problem with both Catholic and Lutheran concepts of communion is that the language tends to imply that we commune with Christ directly. This would bypassing the activity of the Holy Spirit in uniting us. It is precisely the fact that the Holy Spirit is put between us and Christ that creates the impression of Christ not being really present. That’s what leads to the difference on whether non-believers commune on Christ (to their damnation, of course). For Calvin they do not, because of course the Holy Spirit is not active in them, connecting them with Christ.

If you object to this dependence of Christ’s presence on the Holy Spirit, then I think we’ve got a disagreement that we’re not going to be able to reconcile.
 
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Albion

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(1) Does "Reformed" Protestantism (Calvinism, Presbyterianism, Evangelicalism, etc.) have a solid, clear, direct basis in 1st to 3rd century Christian traditions and writings to claim that the Communion meal is "only" a symbol and to reject Jesus' "real" presence in the elements?
Excuse me, but if you're going to lead us through a series of questions, I don't see much to be gained if you intend to dismiss our answers out of hand. When you posed the same questions on another forum, there was no agreement that the Reformed view of the Lord's Supper did amount to a rejection of Real Presence, but without resolving that issue, here we have you stating it again as though it's a settled matter or common knowledge.

I propose that we spend a little bit on each question and then move to the next question one by one. This thread is not debating whether Reformed Protestantism teaches a version of Christianity, rather the thread is investigating the implications of this theological approach.
 
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rakovsky

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Does "Reformed" Protestantism have a solid, clear, direct basis in 1st to 3rd century Christian traditions and writings to claim that the Communion meal is "only" a symbol and to reject Jesus' "real" presence in the elements?
Excuse me, but if you're going to lead us through a series of questions, I don't see much to be gained if you intend to dismiss our answers out of hand. When you posed the same questions on another forum, there was no agreement that the Reformed view of the Lord's Supper did amount to a rejection of Real Presence, but without resolving that issue, here we have you stating it again as though it's a settled matter or common knowledge.

Hello, Albion.
As I said above, I will move on to the second question to avoid this thread becoming a debate, which is discouraged in this section. I agree with Hedrick that Calvin taught that Christ in heaven is present to believers during the ritual, nor do I think Orthodox object to seeing the Holy Spirit playing a role in the unity between Christ and believers during it. You are free to correct my understanding that Calvin did not think that Christ was present in the bread itself beyond it serving as a symbol and that he disagreed with Luther's claim that the "true body and blood of Christ are truly present in and under the form of bread and wine."(Augsburg confession)
 
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JM

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The Reformed idea of believers spiritually feeding upon Christ is a valid view of the Lord’s Supper that seems consistent with scripture and tradition. The discussion is being limited due to the Eastern Orthodox denominational view that became popular in around the time of Augustine in the 4th century or limited to the Christ being present physically only. Calvin states clearly that we feed upon Christ and it is real sustenance.

The Orthodox Presbyterians answer the question on their site here: http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=332

Quote: Calvin, and those coming from his direction are the ones I do find to be the most biblical, clear, and helpful. While denying that the elements themselves are in any way changed, he argued strongly that Christ was truly present by his/the Spirit in such a way that we can and should believe that Christ is truly, “really” present. In other words, the “real” presence of Christ, is a uniquely spiritual presence. The Supper, according to Calvin and the Reformed tradition, is truly a unique meeting with the resurrected Christ who promises to nourish the souls of his people as they feed upon him by faith. The language of “feeding upon him” should not be misunderstood. I cannot say it any better than the Westminster Confession, so I’ll quote chapter 29, section 7:

Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements, in this sacrament, do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally but spiritually, receive, and feed upon, Christ crucified, and all benefits of his death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.

Many books and dissertations have been written on this subject. You may wish to consult Given for You: Reclaiming Calvin’s Doctrine of the Lord’s Supper by Keith Mathison, published by P & R Publishing. It should be helpful. End quote.

Notice how the Reformed church is associated with Calvin, not Zwingli, although Zwingli is a very important figure. Zwingli was influential but the Reformed church views Calvin the central figure of our branch during the Reformation.

Quoting a post made on the Puritan Board:

We affirm both the reality and (more importantly) the spirituality of the presence of Christ in the meal, and at the meal. The Standards of the Reformed churches do a good job of encapsulating and restating Calvin's views.

Here are two paragraphs of the Belgic Confession, Art.35:


...To represent to us the spiritual and heavenly bread, Christ has instituted earthly and visible bread as a sacrament of His body and wine as a sacrament of His blood. He testifies to us that as certainly as we take and hold the sacrament in our hands and eat and drink it with our mouths, by which our physical life is then sustained, so certainly do we receive by faith, as the hand and mouth of our soul, the true body and true blood of Christ, our only Saviour, in our souls for our spiritual life.

It is beyond any doubt that Jesus Christ did not commend His sacraments to us in vain. Therefore He works in us all that He represents to us by these holy signs. We do not understand the manner in which this is done, just as we do not comprehend the hidden activity of the Spirit of God. Yet we do not go wrong when we say that what we eat and drink is the true, natural body and the true blood of Christ. However, the manner in which we eat it is not by mouth but in the spirit by faith. In that way Jesus Christ always remains seated at the right hand of God His Father in heaven; yet He does not cease to communicate Himself to us by faith. This banquet is a spiritual table at which Christ makes us partakers of Himself with all His benefits and gives us the grace to enjoy both Himself and the merit of His suffering and death. He nourishes, strengthens, and comforts our poor, desolate souls by the eating of His flesh, and refreshes and renews them by the drinking of His blood.

Here's the Westminster Confession, 29:7

Worthy receivers outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this sacrament, do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually, receive and feed upon, Christ crucified, and all benefits of His death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.

The Westminster definition is precisely sharper and shorter, but is only a condensed version of the same view found in the Belgic, there possessed of a kind of earnest affirmation of the historic Christian faith, but shorn of (late) Patristic and Medieval philosophical notions regarding the nature and work of "mysteries" and "essences."

But it also reflects the differences between what became the distinct Lutheran view, and the (genuine) Reformed view. The Lutherans insist on a corporeal or tangible presence attached to the elements--not the Roman transubstantiation view, but still a mediating view in which the partakers manducate and swallow the body and blood of the Lord (matter) in a physical or "corporeal" manner.

It is asserted by Lutherans that the Reformed view is indistinguishable from the "Zwinglian" or "memorialist" view. But this we deny, since we affirm a true participation in that body and blood, and do not engage at the meal in mere reflection on the death of Christ.

Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
Chain OLakes Presbyterian Church, Central Lake, MI

End quote.

Another article worth reading: http://www.theologian.org.uk/doctrine/calvinonthelordssupper.html

Therefore, Christ’s presence in the Supper is not physical and ontological, versus Rome and Luther; but it is a true presence, versus Zwingli. Calvin’s view is best described as a spiritual and functional presence, ‘with the Lord being present not in the elements themselves but through the actions done with them.’[62] As signs and signifiers belong together,

The bread and the wine are visible signs, which represent to us the body and blood, but…this name and title of body and blood is given to them because they are as it were instruments by which the Lord distributes them to us.[63]

Therefore,

We must confess…that if the representation which God gives us in the Supper is true, the internal substance of the sacrament is conjoined with the physical signs [Note, Calvin does not say that the physical signs become the internal substance] and as the bread is distributed to us by the hand, so the body of Christ is communicated to us in order that we may be partakers of it.[64]

However, rather than speaking of Christ’s presence to the believer in the Supper, it may be more helpful to speak of the believer’s presence to and with Christ; it is not that Christ comes down and makes himself present to the believer, but rather, the believer is lifted up by the Spirit and made present with Christ. Thus, Keith Mathison suggests that, in contrast to Roman transubstantiation and Lutheran consubstantiation, we might helpfully designate Calvin’s view

suprasubstantiation…. The prefix supra means “above,” beyond,” or “transcending,” [and] communicates the idea that there is a real participation in the substance of Christ’s body and blood, as Calvin taught, but that this participation occurs on a plane that transcends and parallels the plane in which the physical signs exist.[65]

However, the question arises as to whether Scripture supports Calvin’s view at this point. Much biblical language concerning the Supper focuses precisely on remembering Christ’s death,[66] which would seem to support a more classically Zwinglian view.

End quote.

AMR made a post in the SR forum and included a Reformed Baptist sermon the subject. In that sermon you’ll see ordinance and sacrament are used interchangeably by Particular/Reformed Baptists. It’s just the lingo.

I’ll post more later.

Peace.
 
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JM

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“For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”


“…teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”



Surely, Christ doesn’t have to be with us physically to be with us.



Yours in the Lord,



jm
 
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Albion

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Hello, Albion.
As I said above, I will move on to the second question to avoid this thread becoming a debate, which is discouraged in this section. I agree with Hedrick that Calvin taught that Christ in heaven is present to believers during the ritual, nor do I think Orthodox object to seeing the Holy Spirit playing a role in the unity between Christ and believers during it. You are free to correct my understanding that Calvin did not think that Christ was present in the bread itself beyond it serving as a symbol and that he disagreed with Luther's claim that the "true body and blood of Christ are truly present in and under the form of bread and wine."(Augsburg confession)
That's not it. FWIW, I questioned whether you should move to question #2 after reposting your #1 question in its original form...even though admitting, as you did here, that it was an incorrect statement of the Reformed view. I assume that the series of questions leads to a conclusion that is based upon the premise of each of them having been correct as first stated.
 
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JM

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Excuse me, but if you're going to lead us through a series of questions, I don't see much to be gained if you intend to dismiss our answers out of hand. When you posed the same questions on another forum, there was no agreement that the Reformed view of the Lord's Supper did amount to a rejection of Real Presence, but without resolving that issue, here we have you stating it again as though it's a settled matter or common knowledge.

That's what I was thinking.
 
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hedrick

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(I apologize if this is a duplicate, but my posting history doesn't show it as having been made, even though I thought it was.)

Hello, Albion.
As I said above, I will move on to the second question to avoid this thread becoming a debate, which is discouraged in this section. I agree with Hedrick that Calvin taught that Christ in heaven is present to believers during the ritual, nor do I think Orthodox object to seeing the Holy Spirit playing a role in the unity between Christ and believers during it. You are free to correct my understanding that Calvin did not think that Christ was present in the bread itself beyond it serving as a symbol and that he disagreed with Luther's claim that the "true body and blood of Christ are truly present in and under the form of bread and wine."(Augsburg confession)
In a certain literal sense Calvin would agree that Christ is not present in the bread. But I think he also had a sense of sacramental presence. That is, it’s not so much that Christ is present in the bread in a static sense, but that he is present in the act of eating the bread in faith. The concern about saying that it is a symbol only is that it doesn’t do justice to the role of the meal as a “means of grace.” Communion is a sacrament because the eating and drinking serves as a means for Christ to come to us. The bread and wine thus serve as vehicles to make Christ’s presence real.

Of course perhaps this is inherent in the nature of symbols. Symbols do, after all, point to something. But normally when people say that the elements are symbols only they are not viewing them as means for Christ to be present.

When assessing his meaning, you should take into account that Calvin at least some of the time said that there was no significant difference between his view and the Lutheran. When Lutherans say that Christ’s body is present in and under the bread and wine they are also not making a direct identification of bread and body. Rather, the bread and wine carry with them the presence, so that in eating the bread you are eating (in some sense) Christ’s body. I don't think this is far from Calvin's idea that in eating the bread and drinking the wine we are united with Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.
 
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JM

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Weird, I'm not getting updates for this thread.

When you mention the "real presence", Calvin meant that it occurs during the ritual, where the Holy Spirit unites the believer with Christ who is in heaven, as opposed to believing in the presence in the Communion food like Luther


Still, the real presence.


I don't have a problem conceiving of Christ as invisible in his body sometimes, unless I take a naturalistic/materialistic view. In Luke 24 and John 20, Jesus goes invisible, moves through closed doors and walls, etc. Likewise, being the eternal "Logos" who made the world, I don't see a problem with Him becoming "immense", as normal physics laws would not need to apply. It seems rather to me that Calvin thinks in terms of a naturalistic logic or sense of reasoning. This is the kind of thing that I have in mind in my title question.

I understand. The issue to retreating to mystery when spiritual things are revealed, avoiding revelation for apophatic philosophy, reducing the Gospel to illusions.

But, I ask, what did Christ give to his disciples the day before he suffered? Do not the words say that he gave the mortal body, which was to be delivered shortly after?

Christ gave instruction of what His disciplines were to do in His absence. He explained it. You feed upon Christ by faith. That was the whole point John 6. The crowd followed Christ seeking to be physically feed, they were concerned with the physical aspect of eating, but Christ turn their attention from the physical to the spiritual reality of feeding upon Him by faith.

But, say they, he had previously manifested his glory to the three disciples on the mount (Mt. 17:2). This is true; but his purpose was to give them for the time a taste of immortality. Still they cannot find there a twofold body, but only the one which he had assumed, arrayed in new glory. When he distributed his body in the first Supper, the hour was at hand in which he was “stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted” (Isa. 53:4).

Christ’s body was intact. He did not distribute His physical body in any way.


This seems to be more use of logic and reasoning, rather than pointing to direct explanations in the early Christian writings. This is not to say that reasoning and logic must be wrong as tools for interpreting, just that this looks to be the basis for the Calvinist approach.

First to third century writings do not support your conclusion, rather, you are reading into them. Besides, the earliest record we have is scripture and scripture disagrees with what you have posited.

For Calvin, the "presence" is confined by physics or staying up in heaven and the believer has to be "carried" up to there to experience this.

That sounds a lot like a description of the Last Supper recorded in scripture. Christ was present, His disciples feed upon Him spiritually and His body remained intact.

Didn't Calvin consider it a "sacrament"?

Reformed Baptist use ordinance and sacrament interchangeably.

Since Christ in Calvin's view is still staying up in heaven, and the believer is physically still on earth where the ritual occurs, then in what sense is Christ "present" in the ritual? It is only "during" the ritual that the believer is made present to Christ and thus when the believer is "carried" to heaven experiences Christ's "presence" up in heaven.


The Anglican Book of Common Prayer states, “we lift our hearts unto the Lord” meaning they are before the Lord in heaven. Not sure how that relates but the BCP tends to be fairly Reformed.

Augustine's discussion on
the Last Supper and the Eucharist in 1 Cor. 11:24 [“Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you] (see also Luke 22:1), Augustine wrote: "How this ['And he was carried in his own hands'] should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. FOR CHRIST WAS CARRIED IN HIS OWN HANDS, WHEN, REFERRING TO HIS OWN BODY, HE SAID: 'THIS IS MY BODY.' FOR HE CARRIED THAT BODY IN HIS HANDS." (Psalms 33:1:10)


Augustine was outside of the criteria you established.

Justin Martyr wrote in the 2nd century:
"For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

What is the "food consecrated by the Word of prayer"?


Calvin has already been quoted and explains what was meant in accordance with the earliest Christian record…the scriptures.


St. Irenaeus wrote in the second century:
"For just as the bread which comes from the earth, having received the invocation of God, is no longer ordinary bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, so our bodies, having received the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, because they have the hope of the resurrection."

Quote:

This is the context in which Irenaeus describes the Eucharist. Irenaeus likens the rebirth of the believer to the Eucharist and vise verse.

“Then, again, how can they [the Gnostics] say that the flesh, which is nourished with the body of the Lord and with His blood, goes to corruption, and does not partake of life? Let them, therefore, either alter their opinion, or cease from offering the things just mentioned. But our opinion is in accordance with the eucharist, and the eucharist in turn establishes our opinion. For we offer to Him His own, announcing consistently the fellowship and union of the flesh and Spirit. For as the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread, but the eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly; so also our bodies, when they receive the eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity.”

Again, the context is the resurrection of the believer. Irenaeus is speaking of Christians when he said, “the fleshed nourished with the body of the Lord and with His blood.” That is, those who believe on He who was crucified for their sins are nourished with the body and blood of the Lord. Their bodies will not remain in corruption because they will be resurrected. For we offer to Him His own, that is of His own creation. But offerings in the flesh are only pleasing to God when the flesh is united with the Spirit. The flesh united with the gift of the Holy Spirit offers to God the praises of thanksgiving. Flesh void of the gift of the Holy Spirit cannot offer anything to God.

Irenaeus transfers this reality to the bread of the Eucharist by claiming that the bread, which is of God’s creation, receives a Spiritual aspect upon receiving the invocation. The bread, he states, is “no longer common bread, but the eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly.” Earthly, because it is bread which is of the creation, and heavenly, because it is blessed and received by those who themselves are both earthly (in the flesh) and heavenly (born of the Spirit). Source: https://onefold.wordpress.com/early-church-evidence-refutes-real-presence/

End quote.

It’s the Lord’s Day tomorrow. I better log off.

Peace
 
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rakovsky

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Hedrick!
It is nice writing to you, because you tend to be ecumenical.
When Lutherans say that Christ’s body is present in and under the bread and wine they are also not making a direct identification of bread and body. Rather, the bread and wine carry with them the presence, so that in eating the bread you are eating (in some sense) Christ’s body. I don't think this is far from Calvin's idea that in eating the bread and drinking the wine we are united with Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.
For Calvin, the bread may be not only a symbol of the body, but a vehicle for the ritual, a ritual wherein the person receives grace and spiritually communes with Jesus who is in heaven. But this is not the same as saying that the presence is actually in the form of bread. (Consubstantiation)
Calvin said that his view was the same as Luther's, but at the same time he said he rejected Luther's view that Christ's body was ubiquitous, because for Calvin, the body was just in heaven. Naturally, a ubiquitous body Christ would be more naturally able to be present in the bread in particular than a restriction of that body to heaven. But I need to move on at this point.
 
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