• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Paganism versus Christianity

Eryk

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 29, 2005
5,113
2,377
60
Maryland
✟154,945.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Does denying Jesus's death qualify as "unorthodox Christianity", or are we talking heresy here?
It's important because in Jesus God has shared in humanity's physical vulnerability, forlornness, and death. He has undergone what we go through. It's a profound, living act of love and communion that we have with him all the way through life and death. The certainty of death is so intrinsic to human experience, no religion can ignore it.
 
Upvote 0

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟183,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
It's important because in Jesus God has shared in humanity's physical vulnerability, forlornness, and death. He has undergone what we go through. It's a profound, living act of love and communion that we have with him all the way through life and death. The certainty of death is so intrinsic to human experience, no religion can ignore it.
My spiritual journey started... well, with a mystical experience, but with said event came a certain perception of life (and death as a constituent part of this existence) that took several years to mature from an intuitive understanding to something that could be put into words.

I do not fear death, even while I do not believe that my self is anything other than a construct that will die along with the synapses that are responsible for my feelings, memories, habits, and any other non-tangible components that define me.
Death is not a supernatural punishment for moral failures. It is a condition that makes multi-cellular life on a planet with limited resources possible. The most common fear of death (and hope for an eternal afterlife) stems from a certain obliviousness to the grand scheme of things, and the erroneous conception that life and stasis could ever be compatible. Suffering is the result of building a sand castle and expecting it to last forever, only to feel intense disappointment and hurt when the tide comes in and sweeps it away. I will live, I will die, and a new generation will live in my place, potentially carrying some of my genes in a new, exciting combination.
 
Upvote 0

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟217,033.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
It's important because in Jesus God has shared in humanity's physical vulnerability, forlornness, and death. He has undergone what we go through. It's a profound, living act of love and communion that we have with him all the way through life and death. The certainty of death is so intrinsic to human experience, no religion can ignore it.

Do you see this as something important for us or for Jesus? I'm not trying to be dismissive, but I don't find this compelling at all. An all-knowing deity already knows what we go through without having to experience it and G-d suffering as a human does nothing for me personally.
 
Upvote 0

Eryk

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 29, 2005
5,113
2,377
60
Maryland
✟154,945.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
The constructed (dependently co-arising) self is a real, living person and its emphemerality doesn't become a problem until we worship the immutable at its expense. The belief in the dignity of persons is the basis for things like philanthropy and human rights. If the mortal individual isn't real, the immortal collective will be more real and deserving. It is no coincidence that self-abnegating religions flourished in authoritarian cultures. We cannot achieve a balance between individual rights and social obligations if we deny that the individual exists. We pay a real price for these worthlessly abstract doctrines if we take them literally. What a reductive, truncated humanity is assumed by these dreamers! Go to your caves.
 
Upvote 0

gord44

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2004
4,361
666
✟37,508.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Personally, I think most religions have an unhealthy obsession with death, and a lack of focus on life. Yes, they all claim to be "pro-life". But if you think about it, they're "pro [hypothetical] AFTERlife" at best.Actual life is either reduced to an insignificant prelude to eternity, or else portrayed as an obstacle to be overcome.

Another way to look at it is, at least for me with Jodo Shinsu, is that it eliminates the need for further religion or spiritual seeking in my life. That may sound not so good to some, but I am a weary seeker that is sick of seeking. I can go about my business, living my karma and just enjoy my life. Enjoy my family, good scotch and various other whiskeys, video games, books, little green plants that do strange things when you light them on fire, etc. I can just be who I am.

I think where Christianity goes off the rails and makes it too much about the afterlife is it wants to change your current life. You usually are required to give up things you enjoy as they are sinful or becoming an 'idol'. So your enjoyment of your current existence is quenched with promises of a great afterlife.

Judaism seems to be one of the few (or perhaps the only) exception to this rule among the established religions.

I like Judasim but it seems like too much work with all those rules and prayers for me. Heck of a religion though. LoAmmi is my favourite Jewish fellow.
 
Upvote 0

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟217,033.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
I like Judasim but it seems like too much work with all those rules and prayers for me. Heck of a religion though. LoAmmi is my favourite Jewish fellow.

People on the outside think it's harder than it is. Imagine if you've never seen a car before and you've only been told the basics of driving and the rules of the road. You'd probably think "That's too many rules and instructions for me".
 
Upvote 0

gord44

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2004
4,361
666
✟37,508.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
People on the outside think it's harder than it is. Imagine if you've never seen a car before and you've only been told the basics of driving and the rules of the road. You'd probably think "That's too many rules and instructions for me".

Haha good point. Probably all old hat to you since I am assuming you grew up in Judaism.
 
Upvote 0

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟217,033.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Haha good point. Probably all old hat to you since I am assuming you grew up in Judaism.

The thing is that on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis, nothing is any different. People do know that there's a lot of rulings on things that can or can't be done, but those are extremes and most people never encounter them.

Not many in the US are going to face a situation where it's either eat pork or die. It just isn't going to come up. So all the extreme cases that get ruled upon, or the exceptions that get made in light of special situations, they just don't come up that much.

The trickiest situation you might run into is the difference between Sephardic and Ashkenazi. And that's not going to be often.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gord44
Upvote 0

Rajni

☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯
Site Supporter
Dec 26, 2007
8,567
3,944
Visit site
✟1,377,330.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Single
Jesus did not die.
Okay, technically, I believe that none of us dies.
Technically, it's our bodies that die. They wear out, or we
are ejected from them in one manner or another when
they're terminated prematurely through illness, accident,
murder, etc. Therefore, I see it more along the lines of us
"molting", or even "leaving the cocoon", than "dying".

However, stating "Jesus did not die" is going to raise
eyebrows in most Christian circles, especially when even
the bible indicates that he did die (whatever that actually
entails). Not that I'm against raising eyebrows
proclaiming what might be considered heretical—I've been
known to do that myself, so I'm not going to insist that
others don't. :)

I think where Christianity goes off the rails and makes it too much about the afterlife is it wants to change your current life. You usually are required to give up things you enjoy as they are sinful or becoming an 'idol'. So your enjoyment of your current existence is quenched with promises of a great afterlife.
This reminds me of a saying from the Talmud: “A person
will be called to account on Judgment Day for every
permissible thing he might have enjoyed but did not.”
(I love that one! ).

-




-
 
Upvote 0

brinny

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places
Site Supporter
Mar 23, 2004
249,105
114,202
✟1,378,064.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Paganism versus Christianity
What is the difference between other faiths and Christianity? What is the difference between Paganism and Christianity? Why did Jesus tell us to 'treat them (those who say they are in Christ but who refuse to listen to the Church) as a heathen man?" in Matthew 18:17? If there is a way to treat heathen, how was it ? What is the difference between world religions and Christianity? James 4:4 "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." 1 John 2:15-19, speaks of the World and the things of the world. "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." WHO IS THE ANTICHRIST.... 1 John 2:22-23 "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." 2 John 1:7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

How are Christians to treat Worldly religions or otherwise, World Religions? Are World Religions, Pagan Religions? Isn't it strange how James calls them adulteresses and adulterers? Now days, children are learning how to be adulteresses and adulterers before they reach their puberty through public schooling.

Re the title of this thread:

Paganism versus Christianity

Grace, inexplicable grace, undeserved, and mercy.

Forgiveness and undeserved grace from a God Who essentially died for us through His only begotten Son Whose sole purpose for coming to earth was to die for us. He loves us THAT much.

Where this song (especially the lyrics) applies:

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Site Supporter
May 24, 2008
26,973
21,745
Flatland
✟1,122,318.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Do you see this as something important for us or for Jesus? I'm not trying to be dismissive, but I don't find this compelling at all. An all-knowing deity already knows what we go through without having to experience it and G-d suffering as a human does nothing for me personally.

I think knowing and experiencing first-hand are very different, perhaps even for God. And you know the old saying "don't judge a man 'til you've walked a mile in his moccasins".
 
Upvote 0

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟217,033.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
I think knowing and experiencing first-hand are very different, perhaps even for God. And you know the old saying "don't judge a man 'til you've walked a mile in his moccasins".

Would it be for an all-knowing being? I would assume all-knowing encompasses knowing experiences as well. I mean, if you don't believe it does wouldn't that remove the idea of all-knowing and make it almost-all-knowing?
 
Upvote 0

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Site Supporter
May 24, 2008
26,973
21,745
Flatland
✟1,122,318.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Would it be for an all-knowing being? I would assume all-knowing encompasses knowing experiences as well. I mean, if you don't believe it does wouldn't that remove the idea of all-knowing and make it almost-all-knowing?

I hate to sound pedantic, but "know" and "experience" are different words with different meanings.

Mortals, born of woman, are of few days and full of trouble. Job 14:1

Can't speak for an all-knowing being of course, but in our human life we have 1,001 things to deal with that God never has to deal with. If God knows our hearts and minds, He knows our experience, but could God really know what physical pain, humiliation, hunger are really like without really experiencing them?

Imagine a man born rich, been rich all his life. He wants to know what it's like to be poor, so he "slums it" for a while, takes a minimum wage job, lives in a cheap hovel. He's not going to have the actual experience because he knows the whole while that he's still rich, he can stop slumming when he wants to. He could only truly know poverty if he actually gave away his money, actually became poor, with all the accompanying worries, fears and insecurities. I believe that in Jesus, God emptied Himself of his glory in this way.
 
Upvote 0

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟217,033.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
I hate to sound pedantic, but "know" and "experience" are different words with different meanings.

Mortals, born of woman, are of few days and full of trouble. Job 14:1

Can't speak for an all-knowing being of course, but in our human life we have 1,001 things to deal with that God never has to deal with. If God knows our hearts and minds, He knows our experience, but could God really know what physical pain, humiliation, hunger are really like without really experiencing them?

Imagine a man born rich, been rich all his life. He wants to know what it's like to be poor, so he "slums it" for a while, takes a minimum wage job, lives in a cheap hovel. He's not going to have the actual experience because he knows the whole while that he's still rich, he can stop slumming when he wants to. He could only truly know poverty if he actually gave away his money, actually became poor, with all the accompanying worries, fears and insecurities. I believe that in Jesus, God emptied Himself of his glory in this way.

But He isn't a poor man. He isn't a man. I think we're just going to have to disagree here. He created pain, humiliation, hunger. He made them. He made our bodies. I just can't see how He wouldn't know what it's like to experience these things.

I do realize this is one of those great emotional pulls Christians have, but I find it unnecessary and unconvincing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajni
Upvote 0

ScottA

Author: Walking Like Einstein
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2011
4,309
657
✟78,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What is the difference between other faiths and Christianity? What is the difference between Paganism and Christianity? Why did Jesus tell us to 'treat them (those who say they are in Christ but who refuse to listen to the Church) as a heathen man?" in Matthew 18:17? If there is a way to treat heathen, how was it ? What is the difference between world religions and Christianity? James 4:4 "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." 1 John 2:15-19, speaks of the World and the things of the world. "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." WHO IS THE ANTICHRIST.... 1 John 2:22-23 "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." 2 John 1:7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

How are Christians to treat Worldly religions or otherwise, World Religions? Are World Religions, Pagan Religions? Isn't it strange how James calls them adulteresses and adulterers? Now days, children are learning how to be adulteresses and adulterers before they reach their puberty through public schooling.
We are commanded to bring and share the good news of the coming and of the gospel of Christ to the ends of the earth, to every nation and people. But after that, IF they refuse it, they show themselves to be "of the world" and not "of God." As such, we have a responsibility to love them even as an enemy, but also as a neighbor...which is not the same as a "brother." We are also commanded to be good stewards of the world. Which does not mean we put the world about God as some do. But that we "subdue" the world, which means that we as much as "profit" with what God has provided, that we and those in our care have what they need to live according to the path that God has put before us. It also means, that we proclaim His "victory", not coming under the world and its schemes, but that the world should come under our guiding Light, whom is Christ.
 
Upvote 0

brinny

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places
Site Supporter
Mar 23, 2004
249,105
114,202
✟1,378,064.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Interestingly enough there is a theology in Kaballah that speaks of God as evolving slowly over time with the help of people. Basically humans were created so God could self realize and learn and grow.

Where did the Kaballah get this?

The living God, the God of the Bible says this? Which god are they referring to?
 
Upvote 0

brinny

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places
Site Supporter
Mar 23, 2004
249,105
114,202
✟1,378,064.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
But He isn't a poor man. He isn't a man. I think we're just going to have to disagree here. He created pain, humiliation, hunger. He made them. He made our bodies. I just can't see how He wouldn't know what it's like to experience these things.

I do realize this is one of those great emotional pulls Christians have, but I find it unnecessary and unconvincing.

In the beginning it was not so.

Where did all this misery originate from?
 
Upvote 0

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Site Supporter
May 24, 2008
26,973
21,745
Flatland
✟1,122,318.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I do realize this is one of those great emotional pulls Christians have, but I find it unnecessary and unconvincing.

When I saw you say "I think we're just going to have to disagree here" I wasn't going to reply. But now I've seen your edit to include the "great emotional pull" bit. There's really not much emotional about it. I think it's almost the most sensible thing I've ever heard of a God doing. Even as a matter of scientific curiousity, I myself would love to temporarily become something lower, like a chicken maybe, just to know what's like.

 
Upvote 0