Do you actually believe that a loving God will torture people in Hell forever?

[mmksparbud]

I insist that God has given eternal life, both to humans chosen for redemption and humans chosen for damnation. It is His choice and He has told us this in His word.

You insist?!! And just exactly who cares what you insist!! I ask for prove that the verses quoted are out of context and all you can say is "I insist"??!! The point is what does the bible say, not what does MennoSota say!!!

 

[MennoSota]

You insist?!! And just exactly who cares what you insist!! I ask for prove that the verses quoted are out of context and all you can say is "I insist"??!! The point is what does the bible say, not what does MennoSota say!!!

Re-read them in their context. The proof is right in front of your nose.

Why do you want the verses to be about annihilation? Do you wish to go out quickly, without a conviction?

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/annihilation-or-eternal-punishment/

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

There hasn't been a more damaging teaching to the character of God and to the Christian faith then the teaching: God is Love and Loves You, BUT if you do not love him and accept him, he will burn you and torture you or your loved ones in the flames of Hell for trillions and trillions and trillions of years? This is a God that is FAIR and JUST and WISE? and worthy of worship?

It was said that God is love, but it was not said that God is only love. If God had not been love, then Christ never would have died for our sins. If God had only been love, then Christ would never have needed to die for our sins, because he would have loved us and that's all that would have mattered. Therefore, there is another attribute of God as great and equal as his love, which also runs against his love in regard to our eternal salvation. In as much as our salvation is great and eternal, our damnation is equally terrible and eternal, because the aspect of God that would save us forever is equal to that aspect of God that would damn us forever. Such is the extreme nature of an infinite God.

God was the irresistible force, and God was the immovable object that the force collided with. That collision was manifest in the self-destruction of Christ on the cross. Collisions are never one-sided. If you love the love of God but hate the aspect of God that ran afoul of his love at the cross, then you don't accept him for who he is. A bunch of dirty rotten rebellious sinners get to spend an eternity in Heaven, and that doesn't seem fair and just and wise, either, but you don't complain about it. Frankly, I'm more inclined to worship God for his terrifying power and righteousness, but if you prefer to worship him for his love, then I can respect that.

 

[mmksparbud]

Re-read them in their context. The proof is right in front of your nose.

Why do you want the verses to be about annihilation? Do you wish to go out quickly, without a conviction?

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/annihilation-or-eternal-punishment/

I have read them, apparently you have not and can't provide the answer. Why do you want eternal torment instead of annihilation---and who said annihilation will be quick---the bible says they will be punished "according to their works"---the more sins the more pain and suffering for a longer time---who knows how long or how intense, that is the choice of God alone and justice does not require torment for eternity for a 5 second sin!!! I read that stupid article---same old arguments that eliminate the clear word of God for the human view point. Vague statement that death, destroy, destruction, perish do not mean what it says!! Nothing in those verses are out of context. Why does the human heart have such hatred that torturing someone for eternity--ETERNITY--is absolutely sought after in spite of double the verses that indicate otherwise? The proof is right in front of your nose and yet you reject it!! God will punish as He says He will, "according to their works"--
You will insist that this verse proves your point:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

You refuse to even see that the verse says "the smoke of their torment acendeth forever"---the smoke--when smoke goes up into the air it just keeps on going and going and seems to go on forever---it's a figure of speech and you refuse to see that and prefer to insist that it's the torment that goes on forever---that is one serious love of violence. It is that human love of violence that led to the end of the world in a flood--

Gen_6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
Gen_6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Psa_11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

There are 48 verses in the OT dealing with God's hatred of violence!--But you insist He will be committing it for eternity!! It is the violence in our own hearts that demands eternal torment, not God.

 

[MennoSota]

I have read them, apparently you have not and can't provide the answer. Why do you want eternal torment instead of annihilation---and who said annihilation will be quick---the bible says they will be punished "according to their works"---the more sins the more pain and suffering for a longer time---who knows how long or how intense, that is the choice of God alone and justice does not require torment for eternity for a 5 second sin!!! I read that stupid article---same old arguments that eliminate the clear word of God for the human view point. Vague statement that death, destroy, destruction, perish do not mean what it says!! Nothing in those verses are out of context. Why does the human heart have such hatred that torturing someone for eternity--ETERNITY--is absolutely sought after in spite of double the verses that indicate otherwise? The proof is right in front of your nose and yet you reject it!! God will punish as He says He will, "according to their works"--
You will insist that this verse proves your point:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

You refuse to even see that the verse says "the smoke of their torment acendeth forever"---the smoke--when smoke goes up into the air it just keeps on going and going and seems to go on forever---it's a figure of speech and you refuse to see that and prefer to insist that it's the torment that goes on forever---that is one serious love of violence. It is that human love of violence that led to the end of the world in a flood--

Gen_6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
Gen_6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Psa_11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

There are 48 verses in the OT dealing with God's hatred of violence!--But you insist He will be committing it for eternity!! It is the violence in our own hearts that demands eternal torment, not God.

I guess we'll find out someday. In the meantime you can keep taking verses out of context as your prooftext for your pretext.

 

[mmksparbud]

And you can indulge in your violent fantasies---meet you at the east gate and we can both find out. But, dear me---I do hope you won't be too terribly let down of it ends up it's annihilation.....if it's eternal torment, oh, well, just as long as it isn't me in there.

 

[MennoSota]

And you can indulge in your violent fantasies---meet you at the east gate and we can both find out. But, dear me---I do hope you won't be too terribly let down of it ends up it's annihilation.....if it's eternal torment, oh, well, just as long as it isn't me in there.

That's the spirit!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

One major problem causing a misunderstanding for the annihilation folks is that they think that sins are the problem. They think that Hell is for Hitler, not for people who steal pencils.

Stealing pencils and running red lights is not really the problem. Sins are not the problem. SIN is the problem. Sins are only the fruit of Sin. We don't become sinners when we commit a sin. We commit sins because we are sinners.

Unless one understands the very nature of sin, one will certainly think God unjust in His punishment of pencil thieves. . .

A proper understanding of sin knows that, given the right circumstances, I am Hitler. I am chief of all sinners. My heart is as murderous as the fuhrer himself.

 

[mmksparbud]

One major problem causing a misunderstanding for the annihilation folks is that they think that sins are the problem. They think that Hell is for Hitler, not for people who steal pencils.

Stealing pencils and running red lights is not really the problem. Sins are not the problem. SIN is the problem. Sins are only the fruit of Sin. We don't become sinners when we commit a sin. We commit sins because we are sinners.

Unless one understands the very nature of sin, one will certainly think God unjust in His punishment of pencil thieves. . .

A proper understanding of sin knows that, given the right circumstances, I am Hitler. I am chief of all sinners. My heart is as murderous as the fuhrer himself.

Don't be ridiculous----the very mature of sin is horrible---the very nature of sin demands punishment---the soul that sinneth shall die--period---eating a piece of fruit was nothing in comparison to what Hitler did, wasn't very much, the results were catastrophic. Sin is sin and before God it can not live. The wages of sin is death---period. Death, end of existence, annihilation, that is what is costs. The wages of sin is not eternal torture, but death.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God didn't say the penalty for disobeying would be eternal torment, but death. It was Satan that came along and said:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

He lied---the penalty is still death.

 

[MennoSota]

Don't be ridiculous----the very mature of sin is horrible---the very nature of sin demands punishment---the soul that sinneth shall die--period---eating a piece of fruit was nothing in comparison to what Hitler did, wasn't very much, the results were catastrophic. Sin is sin and before God it can not live. The wages of sin is death---period. Death, end of existence, annihilation, that is what is costs. The wages of sin is not eternal torture, but death.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God didn't say the penalty for disobeying would be eternal torment, but death. It was Satan that came along and said:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

He lied---the penalty is still death.

You are free to misinterpret if you wish. Clearly your view is a minority and not held by the early church or consequent generations.
As long as you acknowledge the deity of Yeshua, Jesus, and His atoning sacrifice as payment for the sins of those He chooses to redeem, then I will not quibble over whether the non-redeemed are eternally bound in their sin or annihilated sometime in the afterlife. I'll let God sovereignly decide as He wills.

 

[mmksparbud]

Some issues are a matter of salvation, others are not. Sometimes it can be a little tricky to figure it out. The issue of what happens in hell I do not see as a matter of salvation----but there is a grey line there for it does come down to what one thinks of the character of God. The object is to know God and for Him to know you, and no one wants to hear

Mat_7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is said to those who worked miracles in His name--if you can be doing that and yet God will say this to you, it seems very important that He does know you and you Him. Is getting His character wrong a salvation issue??? If you do not know Him, He will not know you. Is making Him into a being who can torture billions of people for eternity vilifying Him? And to vilify is to blaspheme Him. Will He then not know you?? However, God alone can make that judgment for it does involve knowing what is in the heart.

 

[MennoSota]

Some issues are a matter of salvation, others are not. Sometimes it can be a little tricky to figure it out. The issue of what happens in hell I do not see as a matter of salvation----but there is a grey line there for it does come down to what one thinks of the character of God. The object is to know God and for Him to know you, and no one wants to hear

Mat_7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is said to those who worked miracles in His name--if you can be doing that and yet God will say this to you, it seems very important that He does know you and you Him. Is getting His character wrong a salvation issue??? If you do not know Him, He will not know you. Is making Him into a being who can torture billions of people for eternity vilifying Him? And to vilify is to blaspheme Him. Will He then not know you?? However, God alone can make that judgment for it does involve knowing what is in the heart.

Since God is the one who adopts humans into His family, I find that God will guide His children to grow in understanding His character.

 

[mmksparbud]

Absolutely---and yet He still ends up saying "I never knew you" to some who believe they are His children.

 

[MennoSota]

Absolutely---and yet He still ends up saying "I never knew you" to some who believe they are His children.

It's not whether we think we've chosen Him, it's whether He has chosen us. God's work of sanctification within us will reveal that truth as we stand before Him.

 

[mmksparbud]

He has chosen all already, He died for all. All anyone has to do is believe and live for Him with all their heart and soul and love their fellow man. Wen are very self willed and can talk ourselves into believing whatever we want. People genuinely believed in David Koresh and others,---instead of what the bible says. We talk ourselves into believing we are followers of God when we are still not fully surrendered. These people that go before God have been working miracle's in His name, they thought they were His. But He did not know them, because they were not fully surrendered and whatever still small voice had been telling them they weren't, they over-rode and could no longer hear that voice anymore. They grieved away the Holy Spirit and are filled with self, not God. End result is still they face God, and He doesn't know them.

 

[MennoSota]

He has chosen all already, He died for all. All anyone has to do is believe and live for Him with all their heart and soul and love their fellow man. Wen are very self willed and can talk ourselves into believing whatever we want. People genuinely believed in David Koresh and others,---instead of what the bible says. We talk ourselves into believing we are followers of God when we are still not fully surrendered. These people that go before God have been working miracle's in His name, they thought they were His. But He did not know them, because they were not fully surrendered and whatever still small voice had been telling them they weren't, they over-rode and could no longer hear that voice anymore. They grieved away the Holy Spirit and are filled with self, not God. End result is still they face God, and He doesn't know them.

Do you believe in salvation by works and nor by grace?

Are you a universalist?

I ask because you seem to be advocating for universalism and entrance by virtue of your good choice in picking YHWH off the shelf of gods in the grocery store. You then seem to be implying that your works will keep you in good standing or put you in the doghouse with God. Ultimately, since you believe in a universal all, everyone will be saved anyhow.
Now, you may not believe that, but your argument ends in the conclusion I have laid out.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It might not be obvious at first, but once they talk freely enough you will notice it, and if you listen carefully you'll see that both the sour dour pulpit-pounding folks and the wishy washy people-pleasing liberals, though they would never admit it, are legalists. Both ends of the spectrum believe their own "goodness" saves. They only disagree on what that goodness entails.

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you believe in salvation by works and nor by grace?

Are you a universalist?

I ask because you seem to be advocating for universalism and entrance by virtue of your good choice in picking YHWH off the shelf of gods in the grocery store. You then seem to be implying that your works will keep you in good standing or put you in the doghouse with God. Ultimately, since you believe in a universal all, everyone will be saved anyhow.
Now, you may not believe that, but your argument ends in the conclusion I have laid out.

You seem to not be able to read to well??---I already pointed out to you to look where it says faith and it tells you what I am. You want to come up with labels that have nothing to do with me. You make up stuff about what I believe which are not even close to what I believe, I state what I believe and you keep inventing stuff----WHY IS THAT?? I have never said all will be saved, not once, I have said quite the opposite. Is English your second language?? I have never said salvation is by works, never--I have said that the wicked are punished "according to their works" which is a direct biblical quote so why do you then twist that around to mean salvation by works?? Your post has nothing to do with anything that I have said and I believe I will refuse to answer any more of your posts as you can't seem to comprehend what I am saying.

 

[MennoSota]

You seem to not be able to read to well??---I already pointed out to you to look where it says faith and it tells you what I am. You want to come up with labels that have nothing to do with me. You make up stuff about what I believe which are not even close to what I believe, I state what I believe and you keep inventing stuff----WHY IS THAT?? I have never said all will be saved, not once, I have said quite the opposite. Is English your second language?? I have never said salvation is by works, never--I have said that the wicked are punished "according to their works" which is a direct biblical quote so why do you then twist that around to mean salvation by works?? Your post has nothing to do with anything that I have said and I believe I will refuse to answer any more of your posts as you can't seem to comprehend what I am saying.

I read your comment. You said that Jesus atonement was for all. Unlimited. That's universalism.

Your last statement, however, says that the wicked are punished for their works, which means that Jesus atonement is limited only to the elect.

Which is it?

 

[mmksparbud]

This ain't rocket science! What is so complicated?? Christ's died for all, the price has been paid, He paid it for every single sinner ---it is now up to the individual to accept it or not. Why, you think He died only for you and your cronies??Anyone can accept Him. Will they??----obviously not! Anyone who doesn't pays the price, and pays it as the bible says--"according to their works"--