Oregon Standoff

[Aryeh Jay]

Wahhh? ummmm. ok. What did I just read?

 

[Chesterton]

 

[Ironhold]

But it does explain why some Mormons feel so hostile towards the government.

Utah offered little in the way of pay or prestige as far as federal postings went, and so Uncle Sam was scraping the bottom of the barrel when it came to filling appointments.

Some of the appointees were clock-watchers that simply bode their time until a better posting came along. The church was willing to tolerate these people, and worked with them whenever necessary.

But some were downright incompetent (such that they would never have been able to get a more prestigious post), while others took their post specifically because they intended to use their position to smite the membership. Even under the best of circumstances, these individuals sorely tested the patience of the membership... and their land navigational skills, as reportedly some number of these appointees could be routinely found passed out drunk in the street.

The judge who started it all was among the worst of the worst. If it tells you the kind of person he was, he abandoned his wife back East so that he could be with his secretary / mistress, yet vocally denounced polygamy. As you can imagine, the locals were already pretty upset with him before his servant tried to kill a guy.

 

[Ironhold]

Wahhh? ummmm. ok. What did I just read?

Which post?

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Which post?

The ramblings of someone that apparently is not a fan of the LDS.

 

[Ironhold]

The ramblings of someone that apparently is not a fan of the LDS.

Sadly, if he was to to present his posts to a so-called "Christian" publishing house as a premise for a book he'd likely get a million dollar advance.

That's how much hatred there is out there towards us and how desperate far too many people are to find excuses to trash us.

 

[withwonderingawe]

From the Daily Mail

BREAKING NEWS: Oregon militia member is shot dead as routine traffic stop escalates into shoot-out with the FBI that ends with leader Ammon Bundy arrested and his brother Ryan wounded

• Traffic cops stopped the Bundy brothers and seven others on Tuesday
• Shots were fired, Ryan Bundy was wounded, a militiaman was killed
• Ammon Bundy and three others were detained at the scene, they have been charged with 'conspiracy to impede federal officers'
• Not clear who opened fire; the hospital and highway are on lockdown
• It comes more than three weeks after the Bundy brothers led an occupation of a federal building in Burns, Oregon, to protest 2 ranchers being jailed

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ots-fired-Oregon-stand-off.html#ixzz3yPqDM8uw

 

[Zoness]

I feel like I'm supposed to feel bad but I don't?

Don't get me wrong, I'm as suspicious and distrusting of the federal government as anyone and I regularly rail against our massive military-industrial complex but they just wanted the land to profit off of for themselves. Plus lets be honest, if it was anything but "these white guys" the feds would have laid waste to the place ages ago. I'm glad its over.

 

[jacknife]

I feel like I'm supposed to feel bad but I don't?

Don't get me wrong, I'm as suspicious and distrusting of the federal government as anyone and I regularly rail against our massive military-industrial complex but they just wanted the land to profit off of for themselves. Plus lets be honest, if it was anything but "these white guys" the feds would have laid waste to the place ages ago. I'm glad its over.

I feel bad someone was killed but other then that I agree.

 

[smaneck]

I'm glad its over.

It is not clear it is over yet. They grabbed these guys when they were on their way to a meeting. There are plenty of gunmen still on the reserve.

Lavoy Finicum, who was killed, is one the militia members who was part of this extremist wing of the Mormon Church known as Skousenites, former SLC chief of police, but some of their ideas go back to Benson Taft and the connections some LDS leadership had with the John Birch Society. There is an interesting article about this:

http://marksilk.religionnews.com/2016/01/07/the-mormon-messianism-of-the-oregon-occupiers/

I should mention that Lavoy had a bunch of foster boys on his ranch who were taken away several days ago. It was apparently his main means of livelihood.
Jon Ritzheimer who did that teary farewell to his family in his SUV. went back to Arizona only a few hours before the FEDs snatched these other guys up. He was immediately arrested. He's the anti-Muslim activist who planned that nasty protest outside a mosque in Phoenix. He's not a Mormon. Near as I can tell he hates all religion.
Pete Santilli was arrested while he was broadcasting live.
Meanwhile Blaine Cooper seems to be running things back at the compound and it doesn't sound like he intends to surrender.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

i don't quite know what disconcerts me more:
That there are so many lunatics in the USA, or that these people are actually taken seriously by so many (as in: "that seems like a sensible stance to take", as opposed to "these people are dangerous, I should keep my distance".)

 

[awitch]

i don't quite know what disconcerts me more:
That there are so many lunatics in the USA, or that these people are actually taken seriously by so many (as in: "that seems like a sensible stance to take", as opposed to "these people are dangerous, I should keep my distance".)

Have you seen who's running for president?

 

[withwonderingawe]

It is not clear it is over yet. They grabbed these guys when they were on their way to a meeting. There are plenty of gunmen still on the reserve.

Lavoy Finicum, who was killed, is one the militia members who was part of this extremist wing of the Mormon Church known as Skousenites, former SLC chief of police, but some of their ideas go back to Benson Taft and the connections some LDS leadership had with the John Birch Society. There is an interesting article about this:

http://marksilk.religionnews.com/2016/01/07/the-mormon-messianism-of-the-oregon-occupiers/

I should mention that Lavoy had a bunch of foster boys on his ranch who were taken away several days ago. It was apparently his main means of livelihood.
Jon Ritzheimer who did that teary farewell to his family in his SUV. went back to Arizona only a few hours before the FEDs snatched these other guys up. He was immediately arrested. He's the anti-Muslim activist who planned that nasty protest outside a mosque in Phoenix. He's not a Mormon. Near as I can tell he hates all religion.
Pete Santilli was arrested while he was broadcasting live.
Meanwhile Blaine Cooper seems to be running things back at the compound and it doesn't sound like he intends to surrender.

Benson was in the Quorum of the Twelve from October 7, 1943 – November 10, 1985 right smack in the middle of the cold war. At the same time he was also Eisenhower’s Secretary of Agriculture. He became president of the Church in Nov of 1985.

As Secretary of Agriculture he took Khruschev on a tour of American farms. Benson was intensely against communism after seeing the death and destruction it caused in Poland other places, he called it Satan’s false gospel. At one dinner Khruschev told him they would feed us socialism in small doses until we wake up and find we live in a communist country. Well we have a full blown socialist running for president now and we’re 17 trillion dollars in debt.

Cleon Skousen… well I went to hear him speak once and a lot of people still read his material but he was one step away from jumping off the deep end, maybe he did jump off. I had some neighbors once that were big fans of his, the problem is they make their politics part of their religion. There was this whole group who would gather together and discus politics, if you didn’t agree with them then you were not godly enough. I was at a political discussion put on by our local state senator when a few of them showed up, I thought their leader was going to have a stroke right there he got so angry. He was pointing his finger and his eyes were literally bugging out.

“For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.” 3Nephi 11:29

It’s not that Skousen’s conservative views were wrong but that he manage to stir people’s feeling into contention. They would go beyond the mark. The Stake President sent out a guy to tell them to knock it off, this person told them if they kept going they would all end up in jail just like his brothers. The majority of the group took his words to heart and the group sort of fell apart.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Have you seen who's running for president?

Yes, unfortunately.
And he talks to his fans with a vocabulary attuned to fourth-graders.

 

[smaneck]

At one dinner Khruschev told him they would feed us socialism in small doses until we wake up and find we live in a communist country.

If you believe that you know nothing about Communism. Kruschev would have said no such thing. Communists stigmatize anyone who takes that approach as a "revisionist." The revisionists were the Social Democrats who the Bolsheviks revolted against in the October Revolution.
Communism and Socialism are very different things. The main difference is that Communist believe in violent revolution not a gradualist approach.

Well we have a full blown socialist running for president now and we’re 17 trillion dollars in debt.

What does the deficit have to do with either Communism or Socialism? It has a lot to do with unfunded wars, however.

Cleon Skousen… well I went to hear him speak once and a lot of people still read his material but he was one step away from jumping off the deep end, maybe he did jump off. I had some neighbors once that were big fans of his, the problem is they make their politics part of their religion. There was this whole group who would gather together and discus politics, if you didn’t agree with them then you were not godly enough. I was at a political discussion put on by our local state senator when a few of them showed up, I thought their leader was going to have a stroke right there he got so angry. He was pointing his finger and his eyes were literally bugging out.

“For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.” 3Nephi 11:29

It’s not that Skousen’s conservative views were wrong but that he manage to stir people’s feeling into contention.

Or maybe they were wrong.

The majority of the group took his words to heart and the group sort of fell apart.

Apparently not all of them did and they have guns.

 

[Ironhold]

i don't quite know what disconcerts me more:
That there are so many lunatics in the USA, or that these people are actually taken seriously by so many (as in: "that seems like a sensible stance to take", as opposed to "these people are dangerous, I should keep my distance".)

I gave a link back in post 30 that talks more about this.

In a nutshell, the Federal Bureau of Land Management officials that were operating in the area have been accused of heinously unethical actions against the local farmers and ranchers, accusations that go back well over a decade. The accusations which have been leveled against these BLM officials are serious and should by all rights be investigated, as if the accusations are true they amount to an egregious abuse of power. Instead, no such investigation has taken place.

As a result, there's been a seething resentment and even anger building up in the region for some time now. In that sense, this whole bit with the father and son being ordered back to prison after serving their sentences was ultimately a match being thrown atop a pile of powder. Due to their past experiences with the BLM, all they can see is the BLM trying to steal again.

 

[Chesterton]

And he talks to his fans with a vocabulary attuned to fourth-graders.

That's insulting to fourth-graders.

 

[withwonderingawe]

If you believe that you know nothing about Communism. Kruschev would have said no such thing. Communists stigmatize anyone who takes that approach as a "revisionist." The revisionists were the Social Democrats who the Bolsheviks revolted against in the October Revolution.
Communism and Socialism are very different things. The main difference is that Communist believe in violent revolution not a gradualist approach.



What does the deficit have to do with either Communism or Socialism? It has a lot to do with unfunded wars, however.



Or maybe they were wrong.



Apparently not all of them did and they have guns.

That little group had nothing to do with the Oregon group, it was 20 years ago. Nice group of people who got a little off track for a while but they repented. Most were dairy farmers, one became a Stake President and another a Bishop, one died of stomach cancer (not a fun way to go) they are all grandpas now.

 

[withwonderingawe]

If you believe that you know nothing about Communism. Kruschev would have said no such thing. Communists stigmatize anyone who takes that approach as a "revisionist." The revisionists were the Social Democrats who the Bolsheviks revolted against in the October Revolution.
Communism and Socialism are very different things. The main difference is that Communist believe in violent revolution not a gradualist approach.



What does the deficit have to do with either Communism or Socialism? It has a lot to do with unfunded wars, however.



Or maybe they were wrong.



Apparently not all of them did and they have guns.

"If you believe that you know nothing about Communism. Kruschev would have said no such thing. Communists stigmatize anyone who takes that approach as a "revisionist." The revisionists were the Social Democrats who the Bolsheviks revolted against in the October Revolution.
Communism and Socialism are very different things. The main difference is that Communist believe in violent revolution not a gradualist approach"

Yes he did say such a thing, Benson wasn't lying about it. Socialism is just a step away from communism, it doesn't take much to step over the line.

 

[smaneck]

Socialism is just a step away from communism, it doesn't take much to step over the line.

Then why hasn't Western Europe turned Communist?