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Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT...

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Loudmouth

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According to what I have heard from creation scientists, the information in our cells can be regarded as having "specified complexity", that is what sets it apart from things like snowflakes because whilst snowflakes are complex, they are also random.

That's what they say, but they can never back it up. When asked to measure specified complexity in DNA sequences, they fail to do so. It is simply a claim with nothing to support it.

Also, according to one creation biologist, the chemicals in our cells are not necessarily behaving according to the laws of chemistry while we are alive, but only begin to do so once we die. For instance, I understand that amino acids have to have the same-handedness, not only in humans, but in all life (and the same apparently goes for proteins), but when a living creature dies, the chemicals start doing what they would naturally do and begin to revert to a racemate, i.e., mixture of right-handed and left-handed molecules. If this is indeed the case, then it's surely another problem for the idea that life can come from non-life by natural means.

Are we talking about evolution or abiogenesis? You really need to pick one.

Going back to information - is it not merely a message from a sender to a receiver?

If that is the definition that you are using, then evolution most certainly increases information.

"How do genetic systems gain information by evolutionary processes? Answering this question precisely requires a robust, quantitative measure of information. Fortunately, 50 years ago Claude Shannon defined information as a decrease in the uncertainty of a receiver. For molecular systems, uncertainty is closely related to entropy and hence has clear connections to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. These aspects of information theory have allowed the development of a straightforward and practical method of measuring information in genetic control systems. Here this method is used to observe information gain in the binding sites for an artificial ‘protein’ in a computer simulation of evolution. The simulation begins with zero information and, as in naturally occurring genetic systems, the information measured in the fully evolved binding sites is close to that needed to locate the sites in the genome. The transition is rapid, demonstrating that information gain can occur by punctuated equilibrium."
http://nar.oxfordjournals.org/content/28/14/2794.long
 
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Loudmouth

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DNA can't gain information through natural means.

Evidence please.

If it could the evos would have shown how. But, as we all know....they're a no show.

We have already shown how. The difference in information between chimps and humans is due to the mutations that cause our genomes to be different. If you don't think humans evolving from a common ancestor shared with chimps is an increase in information, then evolution doesn't need to increase information in order to produce the biodiversity you see around us.
 
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-57

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I didn't ask for an "element," I asked for a definition.

Eggs are an element of chocolate cake, but that doesn't tell me what chocolate cake is.

It really doesn't matter if I gave you an element or a definition...Regardless, instructions are part of DNA which means it contains information.
Now, will you admitt DNA code contains information?
 
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-57

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Evidence please.



We have already shown how. The difference in information between chimps and humans is due to the mutations that cause our genomes to be different. If you don't think humans evolving from a common ancestor shared with chimps is an increase in information, then evolution doesn't need to increase information in order to produce the biodiversity you see around us.

Keep in mind...I realize your presenting a theory as fact. That's bad, bad science.
 
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Loudmouth

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It really doesn't matter if I gave you an element or a definition...Regardless, instructions are part of DNA which means it contains information.

Those same instructions are a part of every single molecule in nature. Hydrogen and oxygen contain the instruction to make water, for example.

Now, will you admitt DNA code contains information?

Just as soon as you admit that all matter has that same information.
 
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Subduction Zone

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If a new trait is evolved then there is a requirement for new information...instructions...in the DNA on how to build it. You seem to disagree with that concept.
To date there is no mechanism recognized by scientist on how the instructions could be coded into the DNA to allow the new trait to be realized. I widh I could help you with a few suggestions...but there just isn't any. Information can't be increased via the process of descent with modification.

If it can....SHOW US. But I do have a great confidence that you can't.
Sorry, there are no "instructions" in DNA. You are conflating our interpreting of what DNA does with instructions. Your wording is extremely poor, that is why I am harping on it so much. To date you have not been able to give a definition of "information" that supports your claim. Since you are the one making this claim the burden of proof is upon you. I have told you what I would do for you when you ask properly.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I've already given you one definition...instruction...Do I need to write it bigger for you? INSTRUCTION
And by that definition DNA does not have information. There are no "instructions" in it.

It is sad that you think being demonstrably wrong, as you are, and snarkiness go together. You will never learn anything at this rate.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It really doesn't matter if I gave you an element or a definition...Regardless, instructions are part of DNA which means it contains information.
Now, will you admitt DNA code contains information?

Really? Where? What part of the DNA snippet that Loudmouth gave you was "instructions"?
 
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-57

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Those same instructions are a part of every single molecule in nature. Hydrogen and oxygen contain the instruction to make water, for example.



Just as soon as you admit that all matter has that same information.

..and I'm suppose to address such nonsense? Hydrogen and oxygen are as complex as DNA? They contain instruction on how to construct proteins that build other proteins? Get serious pal.
 
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-57

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It is a fact that chimps and humans are different from each other because of the differences in their genomes.

Keep in mind, I realize that you keep trying to run away from this fact.

They're different because God created them separately and differently. Common is some aspects..yet different.
 
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-57

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Sorry, there are no "instructions" in DNA. You are conflating our interpreting of what DNA does with instructions. Your wording is extremely poor, that is why I am harping on it so much. To date you have not been able to give a definition of "information" that supports your claim. Since you are the one making this claim the burden of proof is upon you. I have told you what I would do for you when you ask properly.

You posted"there are no "instructions" in DNA."

Wiki disagrees.
DNA) is a molecule that carries most of the genetic instructions used in the development, functioning and reproduction of all known living organisms and many viruses.

another.....The language used by DNA is called the genetic code, which lets organisms read the information in the genes. This information is the instructions for constructing and operating a living organism.
DNA is often compared to a set of blueprints, like a recipe or a code, since it contains the instructions needed to construct other components of cells, such as proteins and RNA molecules.

....I could probably do this all night long.
 
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Loudmouth

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Loudmouth

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..and I'm suppose to address such nonsense? Hydrogen and oxygen are as complex as DNA?

Hydrogen and oxygen carry information just like DNA does.

They contain instruction on how to construct proteins that build other proteins? Get serious pal.

Hydrogen and oxygen carry instructions for making water. All molecules carry the same type of instructions.
 
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-57

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Hydrogen and oxygen carry information just like DNA does.



Hydrogen and oxygen carry instructions for making water. All molecules carry the same type of instructions.

You've got to be kidding? The information in the DNA instructs on how to take a molecule and combine them to make amino acids. The amino acids string together to make proteins. The proteins fold in a specific way and join with other to make organelle...

..and you said the code in DNA is all the same? Like making water?
 
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