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Why the Catholic Church changes the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday

Meowzltov

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I have a question for you - I assume there must be some sort of "Jewish Catholic" organization or community. Perhaps they have a publication or magazine or something. Some way to discuss topics with that focused interest group.

Yes. There are two main websites, one official, and one (the better one) just regular.
http://www.hebrewcatholic.net/
http://www.catholicsforisrael.com/

What is their view of history?
The treatment of Jews in history was inexcusable. However, the Church has changed its ways, apologized, and has entered a new era of how it dialogues with Jews in general and how it deals with Jewish Christians. Pope St John Paul II made absolutely enormous progress with Jewish Catholic relations, and our present Pope Francis has the best relations with Jews since Apostolic times.

Mostly these sites have articles pertinent to living for Christ as a Jewish believer.
 
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BobRyan

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The treatment of Jews in history was inexcusable. However, the Church has changed its ways, apologized, and has entered a new era of how it dialogues with Jews in general and how it deals with Jewish Christians.

The RCC to this very day claims that the evil entity described in the book of Revelation -- the great thing for Christians to beware of - is Jerusalem - is the Jews.

Lateran IV declared Canon LAW calling for the extermination of Jews and heretics - Law that is held to be infallible to this very day.

If the RCC has apologized for Lateran IV - has identified any of that canon law and declared that they no longer consider it to be infallible - - they should tell someone.

My point is not that the Catholic adminstrators are today going around trying to exterminate Jews -- but rather that they cannot bring themselves to revoke their own doctrine on infallability to the point of admitting that - that particular section was in deed "error" - moral error -- canonized moral error.

Now let's contrast that with former Protestant-Catholics. Catholics that used to be Protestant. And there are a number of them. Those Catholics are free to condemn the Protestant Reformation all they want - (and some do that as well). But a Jewish Catholic is often someone that holds to Jewish religious practices and does not consider it right to have ever tried to burn Jews alive or to exterminate them. A tough position to be in.
 
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Meowzltov

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The RCC to this very day claims that the evil entity described in the book of Revelation -- the great thing for Christians to beware of - is Jerusalem - is the Jews.

Lateran IV declared Canon LAW calling for the extermination of Jews and heretics - Law that is held to be infallible to this very day.
The CC does not consider Jews something to beware of, nor does Canon law call for the extermination of Jews and heretics. Canon law is not considered to be infallible, and IS changed.
 
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BobRyan

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The CC does not consider Jews something to beware of, nor does Canon law call for the extermination of Jews and heretics. Canon law is not considered to be infallible, and IS changed.

1. Lateran IV was an ecumenical council - and that is infallible according to the RCC when it creates canon law. This is irrefutable.
2. Lateran IV calls for the extermination of heretics and jews and was a key tool bringing about both the Jesuit order and the inquisition. Fordham is a Jesuit university - it is their own translation of the LATERAN IV text.
 
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Meowzltov

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1. Lateran IV was an ecumenical council - and that is infallible according to the RCC when it creates canon law. This is irrefutable.
2. Lateran IV calls for the extermination of heretics and jews and was a key tool bringing about both the Jesuit order and the inquisition. Fordham is a Jesuit university - it is their own translation of the LATERAN IV text.
I searched the document for Lateran IV and could find no reference to canon law or any reference to extermination. Can you please look it over and paste the appropriate sentences you think support your point and tell me which paragraph I might find them in? I suspect they don't exist and that you might have picked up this information on some anti-Catholic site. OR it could be that I just missed it when I looked for it. Out of respect for the seriousness of your question, I have made an inquiry on Kark Keating's board, and I'll get back to you as soon as I hear. Thanks in advance. OH
https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/LATERAN4.HTM#2

BTW: the Church DOES teach to exterminate heretics in a figurative sense, as in to obliterate a heresy completely, to root it out and rid it from the earth. When we speak of extermination in this sense we are not talking about bodily killing.
 
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Meowzltov

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Gee Bob, doing research for this thread, guess what I came across? You! It seems you have brought up this same question before, again without source, and what is more telling is that YOU were ANSWERED.
https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/rcc-lateran-iv-command-to-exterminate.93339/

So Bob, given that you already know that exterminate refers to cutting off and rooting out, to obliterate heresy, and doesn't refer to literal killing of heretics, why are you again bringing it up? It's kind of a little dishonest to say the least. I'm really disappointed with you.

BTW, this passage doesn't refer to the Jews at all. Jews are not heretics. You have to be a Catholic to be a heretic.

On Ecumenical Councils and non-infalllible changes:
Not everything set by an Ecumenical Council is considered infallible. Some things become part of Canon Law, which is not infallible. Some things become part of tradition, which is not infallible. It is the rulings which are of faith and morals which are infallible. Let's look for example at Vat 2, where I'm more familiar. An example of a dogmatic ruling was the teaching that Jews are not responsible for the death of Christ as a group--those past, present, and future who call all Jews "Christ killers" are sinning. An example of a non-infallible teaching is that all Masses should be in the vernacular, which became part of Canon Law. Indeed, this was eventually changed under Benedict XVI who allowed the comeback of the Tridentine Mass. Nor was the Latin Mass ever 'wrong.'
 
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BobRyan

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I searched the document for Lateran IV and could find no reference to canon law or any reference to extermination. Can you please look it over and paste the appropriate sentences you think support your point and tell me which paragraph I might find them in? I suspect they don't exist and that you might have picked up this information on some anti-Catholic site. ..

ok.. so your first option was "BobRyan is evil that is where this idea came from" -- :)

Here is another option - from the Jesuit university "Fordham".


The Fourth Lateran Council, the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp

CANON 3
"Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land."

===============================================================

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45674

Posted: August 9, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

I'm also encouraged by Benedict XVI, who seems to have inherited John Paul II's humility as well as his loyalty to foundational doctrines.

On Jan. 22, 1998, when he was still a cardinal and the grand Inquisitor (yes!) of the Roman Catholic Church, he declared that their archives (4,500 large volumes) indicate a death toll of 25 million killed by the Catholic Church for being "heretics." And likely two-thirds of the original volumes are lost.

That kind of honesty will help relations (though there is no basis for uniting the RCC with Bible-believing Protestant churches).

==========================================

Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100


The question:

A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:


“The world has Never seen anything to compare with the persecution heaped upon the Baptists by the Catholic hierarchy of the Dark Ages. The Pope was the world’s dictator. This is why the Anabaptists before the Reformation called the Pope the Anti-Christ”. Then: “Fifty million died by persecution over a period of 1200 years because of the Catholic Church”


The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan:

“There weren’t any Baptists until 1609, generally thought of as a year occurring after the Dark Ages. (that is why the article above includes Anabaptists) Anabaptists (means anti-baptism of infants – so they re-baptized them as adults) means “re-baptizers” and was a name given to groups existing in the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th centuries but they had no connection with the violent civil-religious (Catholic) reformers who appeared in 1521 at Zwickau in Saxony.


These 16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”

==============================================


In the article above – Fr. Ken Ryan makes the meaning of “extermination” of that group and “many other groups” clear for modern readers.

===========================


Pope Gregory IX, Council Tolosanum, 1229 A.D.:

"We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament ... We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular." "'The lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out."


reigned from 16 June 1846 to his death in 1878. He was the longest-reigning elected pope in the history of the Catholic Church — over 31 years.

Pope Pius IX, (1846 - 1878.) Quanta Cura:

"Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies... pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means."
 
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BobRyan

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Gee Bob, doing research for this thread, guess what I came across? You! It seems you have brought up this same question before, again without source, '

"without source"???

Lateran IV -- "does not exist"???
Or did you mean that - Fordham "does not exist"?
Or did you mean that the Jesuit - Fordham translation "does not exist"??

Some members go for the 'does not exist' option a bit too quickly.
 
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BobRyan

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So Bob, given that you already know that exterminate refers to cutting off and rooting out, to obliterate heresy, and doesn't refer to literal killing of heretics, why are you again bringing it up? It's kind of a little dishonest to say the least. '

... hmmm.. because we all know what a wonderful thing it is to be "exterminated" or because we never see Catholic sources refer to the genocide of the dark ages as "extermination"??

This is not a Protestant source - it is Catholic.

Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100


============

The question:

A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:


“The world has Never seen anything to compare with the persecution heaped upon the Baptists by the Catholic hierarchy of the Dark Ages. The Pope was the world’s dictator. This is why the Anabaptists before the Reformation called the Pope the Anti-Christ”. Then: “Fifty million died by persecution over a period of 1200 years because of the Catholic Church” =====================


The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan:

=====================

“There weren’t any Baptists until 1609, generally thought of as a year occurring after the Dark Ages. (that is why the article above includes Anabaptists) Anabaptists (means anti-baptism of infants – so they re-baptized them as adults) means “re-baptizers” and was a name given to groups existing in the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th centuries but they had no connection with the violent civil-religious (Catholic) reformers who appeared in 1521 at Zwickau in Saxony.


These 16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”



==============================================


In the article above – Fr. Ken Ryan makes the meaning of “extermination” of that group and “many other groups” clear for modern readers.
 
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BobRyan

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Gee Bob, doing research for this thread, guess what I came across? You! It seems you have brought up this same question before, again without source, and what is more telling is that YOU were ANSWERED.
https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/rcc-lateran-iv-command-to-exterminate.93339/

So Bob, given that you already know that exterminate refers to cutting off and rooting out, to obliterate heresy, and doesn't refer to literal killing of heretics, why are you again bringing it up? It's kind of a little dishonest to say the least. I'm really disappointed with you.

BTW, this passage doesn't refer to the Jews at all. Jews are not heretics. You have to be a Catholic to be a heretic.

On Ecumenical Councils and non-infalllible changes:
Not everything set by an Ecumenical Council is considered infallible. Some things become part of Canon Law, which is not infallible. Some things become part of tradition, which is not infallible. It is the rulings which are of faith and morals which are infallible. Let's look for example at Vat 2, where I'm more familiar. An example of a dogmatic ruling was the teaching that Jews are not responsible for the death of Christ as a group--those past, present, and future who call all Jews "Christ killers" are sinning. An example of a non-infallible teaching is that all Masses should be in the vernacular, which became part of Canon Law. Indeed, this was eventually changed under Benedict XVI who allowed the comeback of the Tridentine Mass. Nor was the Latin Mass ever 'wrong.'

First of all - I have said on this board and on that other board - that I would be tickled pink to have the actual RCC step up and say that Lateran IV - CANON 3 was total error and is rescinded - and all the acts of violence, theft, threat of force including actual torture and murder -- committed in compliance with that order were sinful and are now repudiated.

I much prefer the "ok mistakes made in the past - let's learn the lesson from the past and move on"
 
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Meowzltov

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ok.. so your first option was "BobRyan is evil that is where this idea came from" -- :)
LOL. No my friend. A variety of ideas went through my mind. One was that you had simply gotten your info from an anti-Catholic site that gave you misinformation. Another idea (very possible!) was that I was tired and just skipped over the information. The document was pretty long.
 
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Meowzltov

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... hmmm.. because we all know what a wonderful thing it is to be "exterminated" or because we never see Catholic sources refer to the genocide of the dark ages as "extermination"??
All of this was irrelevant. The only relevant thing is that the use of the word in latin, which is translated as exterminate in English, does not refer to bodily killing, but to the obliteration of the heresy.
 
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Meowzltov

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First of all - I have said on this board and on that other board - that I would be tickled pink to have the actual RCC step up and say that Lateran IV - CANON 3 was total error and is rescinded - and all the acts of violence, theft, threat of force including actual torture and murder -- committed in compliance with that order were sinful and are now repudiated.

I much prefer the "ok mistakes made in the past - let's learn the lesson from the past and move on"
I'm just ticked off that you were adequately answered in the past and had the nerve to ask the same question again as if you didn't know the answer. It was shady.
 
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BobRyan

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I'm just ticked off that you were adequately answered in the past and had the nerve to ask the same question again as if you didn't know the answer. It was dishonest.

Why would you think that I would accept a fluff response that did not pass close review - as if it was some sort of "answer"? Even EWTN's Dr. William Carroll knew better than that.
 
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BobRyan

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All of this was irrelevant. The only relevant thing is that the use of the word in latin, which is translated as exterminate in English, does not refer to bodily killing, but to the obliteration of the heresy.

The idea that the Jesuits at Fordham don't know what they are doing when they translated the word as "exterminate" - is not taken seriously - by me.

The idea that Fr. Ken Ryan at Catholic Digest did not know what he was saying when speaking of "extermination" - is not taken seriously - by me.

The idea that Dr. William Carroll at EWTN - did not know what he was talking about when this issue of LATERAN IV and extermination was brought up to him - is not taken seriously - by me. His statement was clearly that even Billy Graham would have been "burned at the stake" for teaching what he taught if he had lived in the 1400's. When the Mea Culpa statement came out in 2000 I asked about the problem this brings to infallibility of ecumenical councils like LATERAN IV and its call for exterminating heretics. His answer was very specific - that the apology of the year 2000 did not actually identify any action by the RCC in the past as being wrong - and therefore LATERAN IV stands.

I am more than happy to quote serious sources - on my posts to "proof" or "evidence" for a given statement - but 'just somebody on a blog' is not going to go very far in my posts.

Everyone has free will and you don't have to agree with theses facts - but if you want fluff dismissals to "have substance" when the facts are clearly to the contrary - you will need a better case for it.

And of course the "evidence in fact" does not stack up behind 'exterminate but in a nice way' --

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45674

Posted: August 9, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

I'm also encouraged by Benedict XVI, who seems to have inherited John Paul II's humility as well as his loyalty to foundational doctrines.

On Jan. 22, 1998, when he was still a cardinal and the grand Inquisitor (yes!) of the Roman Catholic Church, he declared that their archives (4,500 large volumes) indicate a death toll of 25 million killed by the Catholic Church for being "heretics." And likely two-thirds of the original volumes are lost.
 
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Meowzltov

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Why would you think that I would accept a fluff response that did not pass close review - as if it was some sort of "answer"? Even EWTN's Dr. William Carroll knew better than that.
It is not a "fluff" response. It is an academic response, having to do with the meaning of the word in Latin. Sometimes when you translate a word or phrase, it's difficult to find an exact translation, something gets a little mixed up. You will find what i said repeated over and over at Catholic websites that expound on Lateran IV. Since I don't speak Latin, I will take the Latin experts' consensus opinion on the issue.

However, in terms of your personal peace, since you aren't going to accept this, you can at least accept that there is adequate proof that the Catholic church does not today torture and kill heretics or Jews. So be at rest.
 
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Meowzltov

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The idea that the Jesuits at Fordham don't know what they are doing when they translated the word as "exterminate" - is not taken seriously - by me.
exterminate is the CLOSEST word. There is NO ENGLISH WORD that matches the Latin word. You therefore have to be given a background understanding as I have given you.
 
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Meowzltov

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Billy Graham would have been "burned at the stake" for teaching what he taught if he had lived in the 1400's.
Yes, but not because of Lateran IV. It was simply the cultural moral of the time that the eternal life of innocents was more important than the temporal life of the heretic. It went on for more than half a millenium and was shared by both Catholics and Protestants. You and I may be scandalized by it, but you have to admit that it does make a certain amount of logical sense -- one life verses the eternal life of tens of thousands.
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, but not because of Lateran IV. It was simply the cultural moral of the time that the eternal life of innocents was more important than the temporal life of the heretic. It went on for more than half a millenium and was shared by both Catholics and Protestants. You and I may be scandalized by it, but you have to admit that it does make a certain amount of logical sense -- one life verses the eternal life of tens of thousands.

Sounds like a horrible idea.

But it was instituted by the Church and there just were not a lot of Protestant churches around in the 1400's - and burning people alive was not one of their key ways of evangelizing.

It was the Papacy and the LATERAN IV idea of "exterminating" people (no matter how nice a face you can imagine for 'exterminate'- was from 1215. After which came the inquisition and burning people alive.
 
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