Why don't protestants bless Mary?

[Aldebaran]

I guess the issue for me is asking how we can honor God if we don't honor His Mother. As St. Augustine said, we should never doubt that Mary is sinless, on account of the honor of the Lord.

So your faith rests in the words of St. Augustine, rather than the Apostles, Jesus Christ, or anyone else in the bible? Remember what is written there:

Ecc 7:20--Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

1 John 1:8--If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Romans 3:10--as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

Patricius, the passages above are what is said in the bible. What St. Augustine said is NOT in the bible. Which one do you believe since they are in opposition to each other?

 

[Albion]

I'm trying to see why Person "A" must bless Person "B" to be able to call Person "B" Blessed.
Can I say John is Blessed without myself Blessing John ?

The irony is all of this--if that's the right word--is that all generations HAVE called her blessed. Protestants certainly consider her to have been blessed by God by begin chosen.

There is no issue in saying "But you don't use the word every time you refer to Mary!" as though some Commandment is being broken or that it means a person scorns Mary merely by not calling her "the Blessed Virgin Mary" every time she's referred to.

 

[patricius79]

It's faith in traditions invented by and passed down by man.

I don't think this opinion fits with the Word of God. The Bible does say this though: 2 Timothy 2:2. How do you think we should follow that Word of God?

 

[patricius79]

What is the other part of tradition? Does it include whatever people in the church tell you?

Christ said "whoever listens to you listens to me". So how can I follow that besides submitting to the beautiful Marian teachings of the Church that Christ founded and sustained throughout Christian history?

 

[patricius79]

So your faith rests in the words of St. Augustine, rather than the Apostles, Jesus Christ, or anyone else in the bible? Remember what is written there:

Ecc 7:20--Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

1 John 1:8--If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Romans 3:10--as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

Patricius, the passages above are what is said in the bible. What St. Augustine said is NOT in the bible. Which one do you believe since they are in opposition to each other?

The Bible doesn't say they are in opposition to each other. I see the issue differently from you. Romans 3:10 is citing a Psalm which says that some are righteous. I see it as: should I accept the Word of God as passed on (2 Timothy 2:2, Isaiah 59:21) from the beginning, or the traditions of groups which began in the 1500s?

 

[patricius79]

The irony is all of this--if that's the right word--is that all generations HAVE called her blessed. Protestants certainly consider her to have been blessed by God by begin chosen.

There is no issue in saying "But you don't use the word every time you refer to Mary!" as though some Commandment is being broken or that it means a person scorns Mary merely by not calling her "the Blessed Virgin Mary" every time she's referred to.

That's true. She can also be called "the Virgin", or simply "Mary", "the Immaculate Conception", or "the Mother of God", or "the New Eve", or the "Refuge of Sinners", or many other titles.

Just so long as we are being respectful of the Virgin who conceived Jesus Christ, our God

 

[Aldebaran]

The Bible doesn't say they are in opposition to each other. I see the issue differently from you. Romans 3:10 is citing a Psalm which says that some are righteous. I see it as: should I accept the Word of God as passed on (2 Timothy 2:2, Isaiah 59:21) from the beginning, or the traditions of groups which began in the 1500s?

Clearly, you need to read it more carefully. How does "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE" mean that there are some righteous? Do you understand what the word "NONE" means?

Read a couple more verses further in Romans and the picture become even more clear:

as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

Now Patricius, is there anything about this that says Mary was the exception to the rule?

 

[patricius79]

Clearly, you need to read it more carefully. How does "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE" mean that there are some righteous? Do you understand what the word "NONE" means?

Read a couple more verses further in Romans and the picture become even more clear:

as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

Now Patricius, is there anything about this that says Mary was the exception to the rule?

There is nothing explicit in these verses about the New Adam being the exception to the rule, nor about the New Eve.

Nor are they included. Nor even are babies or those so mentally handicapped that they cannot sin.

The Psalm being quoted, Psalm 14, is not talking about all humanity, but about the wicked, as verse 4 makes clear

"have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people, as they eat bread, and do not call upon the Lord?"

Psalm 14:5 says that "God is with the generation of the righteous"

Likewise in Mark 1:5, Colossians 1:20, and 1 Corinthians 15:22, the word "all" does not exclude exceptions. In Colossians 1:20, for example, God does not reconcile the demons to himself.

Clearly there are no Scriptures which say that the Mother of God sinned.

There can't be, because the Word of God is coherent.

 

[Aldebaran]

There is nothing explicit in these verses about the New Adam being the exception to the rule, nor about the New Eve.

The Psalm being quoted, Psalm 14, is not talking about all humanity, but about the wicked, as verse 4 makes clear "have they now knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people, as they eat bread, and do not call upon the Lord?"

Psalm 14:5 says that "God is with the generation of the righteous"

Likewise in Mark 1:5, Colossians 1:20, and 1 Corinthians 15:22, the word "all" does not exclude exceptions. In Colossians 1:20, for example, God does not reconcile the demons to himself.

Clearly there are no Scriptures which say that the Mother of God sinned.

There can't be, because the Word of God is coherent.

I'm still waiting for you to show me the verse that says Mary did NOT sin, or ascended into Heaven.

 

[patricius79]

I'm still waiting for you to show me the verse that says Mary did NOT sin, or ascended into Heaven.

There are no explicit verses about the existence of a New Testament, or any books claiming to be inerrant, or about the N.T. Canon, or the doctrine of the Trinity, or that we don't have to keep the Sabbath, or that the day of Christian worship is Sunday not Saturday, or the idea that Christ has two wills, or many other true parts of the Word of God.

Nor are there any explicit verses for false doctrines like Sola Scriptura.

The Bible says "whoever listens to you listens to me" and "hold fast to the traditions, whether oral or written".

The Bible explicitly does say that Mary conceived Jesus Christ, our God. And the Bible is part of the Word of God, which holds that Mary never sinned and is Assumed into Heaven, body and soul.

 

[Grafted In]

Then why wasn't Mary crucified for us? If she lived a totally sinless life and now resides in Heaven as our Holy Mother, why was she not a sacrifice that would satisfy the wrath of God on sin?

 

[Aldebaran]

There are no explicit verses about the existence of a New Testament, or any books claiming to be inerrant, or about the N.T. Canon, or the doctrine of the Trinity, or that we don't have to keep the Sabbath, or that the day of Christian worship is Sunday not Saturday, or the idea that Christ has two wills, or many other true parts of the Word of God.

First, the NT clearly exists. I have a copy of it. Second, " “And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times” (Psalm 12:6).

The Bible explicitly does say that Mary conceived Jesus Christ, our God. And the Bible is part of the Word of God, which holds that Mary never sinned and is Assumed into Heaven, body and soul.

Still waiting on the verse that says that.

 

[patricius79]

Then why wasn't Mary crucified for us? If she lived a totally sinless life and now resides in Heaven as our Holy Mother, why was she not a sacrifice that would satisfy the wrath of God on sin?

My understanding is that this is because our offense against God was in some sense infinite, since it offended an infinitely Holy and Good God. Moreover, Mary needed to be saved from falling into sin by the Son of God, her Son. The Mother of God's tremendous suffering in knowing that her son would be crucified, and watching him carry his cross and be crucified, is redemptive (Luke 2:35), but only by the grace of Christ. Mary's role as Mediatrix with Christ is itself a grace of Christ.

 

[patricius79]

First, the NT clearly exists.

Yes, because the early Catholic Church write and complied it. But the Scriptures don't refer to a "new testament" nor tell us which books are in it.

I have a copy of it. Second, " “And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times” (Psalm 12:6).

Yes and the words of the Lord about Mary are that she is Ever-Virgin, Immaculate, and Assumed into Heaven.

Still waiting on the verse that says that.

Why, when there is no verse which teaches the human tradition of Sola Scriptura?

The Bible doesn't tell us that there is One God in Three Persons, though this is true.

I'm still waiting for the time when we all accept Luke 10:16 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

 

[Aldebaran]

My understanding is that this is because our offense against God was in some sense infinite, since it offended an infinitely Holy and Good God. Moreover, Mary needed to be saved from falling into sin by the Son of God, her Son. The Mother of God's tremendous suffering in knowing that her son would be crucified, and watching him carry his cross and be crucified, is redemptive (Luke 2:35), but only by the grace of Christ. Mary's role as Mediatrix with Christ is itself a grace of Christ.

Quite a story! Now, where do we find the source of it?

 

[Aldebaran]

Yes and the words of the Lord about Mary are that she is Ever-Virgin, Immaculate, and Assumed into Heaven.

Didn't you say just minutes ago that those are the words of St. Augustine? Is he now in charge of telling us God's words rather than God Himself through His own words to us?

 

[Grafted In]

My understanding is that this is because our offense against God was in some sense infinite, since it offended an infinitely Holy and Good God. Moreover, Mary needed to be saved from falling into sin by the Son of God, her Son. The Mother of God's tremendous suffering in knowing that her son would be crucified, and watching him carry his cross and be crucified, is redemptive (Luke 2:35), but only by the grace of Christ. Mary's role as Mediatrix with Christ is itself a grace of Christ.

This is something I've never been told.
I guess my first question would be how did Jesus protect her from sin before He was born, or, more importantly, before she concieved Him.

 

[Aldebaran]

This is something I've never been told.
I guess my first question would be how did Jesus protect her from sin before He was born, or, more importantly, before she concieved Him.

That's because it's one of the false teachings we were warned against in 2 Peter 1-3:

1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."

 

[patricius79]

Quite a story! Now, where do we find the source of it?

In the Word of God (Sacred Christian Tradition), of which the Scriptures are a part.

 

[patricius79]

Didn't you say just minutes ago that those are the words of St. Augustine? Is he now in charge of telling us God's words rather than God Himself through His own words to us?

God passed on His words through humans: John 14:26, 2 Timothy 2:2, 1 Thessalonians 2:13