Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[iamlamad]

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Most translations disagree with you.

Wow! "some" depart has now turned into a great apostasy! The truth is "some" have always been departing and some new have come, but in general more new have come than the old departed: the church has steadily GROWN over time, not gotten smaller. You should know this! How can "some shall depart" agree with THE (a very significant) departing?

 

[iamlamad]

Really, you once ask me if I didn’t study commentaries. You just answered why I put so little faith in them. They are men with opinions just like you and I. FYI I do read some of them , but do not treat them as always authoritative.

For once we agree: MOST of the commentaries are lost when they get to Revelation.

 

[iamlamad]

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.


Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

There is now no salvation outside of the New Blood Covenant Church of Christ.

Paul plainly said in Romans chapter 11 that the branches broken off must be grafted back into the Olive Tree through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the Church.

The covenant at the end of Romans chapter 11, is the New Blood Covenant of Grace.

Any other explanation would be from the imagination of men, and cannot be found in God's Word.

A great sidestep - which I find you are good at. I asked:

Why do any "believers" shown in chapter 12 necessarily have to be "the church?" There are other explanations.

You did not even come close to answering.

There is now no salvation outside of the New Blood Covenant Church of Christ.

Now is now, but then is another time. What does NOW have to do with the future? "The meek shall inherit the earth." SOME will survive the future Day of the Lord and Daniel's 70th week and will still be alive to enter the millennial kingdom. So indeed there WILL BE "salvation" outside of the 'catching up" that will soon come. But this too will certainly be because of the Blood of the New Covenant, for Jesus took away the sins of the WORLD.

Paul plainly said in Romans chapter 11 that the branches broken off must be grafted back into the Olive Tree through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the Church.

No, the Olive tree is JEWISH, for "salvation is of the Jews." JESUS was a Jew!

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Had God turned His back on Israel? What then is His purpose of making them jealous?

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

God will NOT abandon them. Paul continues:

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

WHOSE olive tree? THEIRS: it is the Jewish Olive tree. Paul tells us some will be grafted BACK to their three. In other words, will be saved.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Note carefully "they are beloved!" They are enemies of the gospel, but they are beloved of God.

Now stop and think: even in your false theories, the rapture when Jesus comes, all the saved will be changed into imortal beings. Yet unless you are completely blind to the scriptures, you know that AFTER HE COMES, and AFTER the sheep and goat judgment, there will still be people in natural bodies that were declared sheep. They did NOT get to be sheep by way of being born again OR THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN CAUGHT UP with the church.

You will probably say they were born again AFTER the rapture. If so, that would STILL leave them as natural bodies and not immortal bodies. So they were saved OUTSIDE the "church" that was caught up.

And by the way, in your theory, all would MISS the marriage and supper which will take place in heaven before Jesus comes.

 

[Fusion77]

A great sidestep - which I find you are good at. I asked:

Why do any "believers" shown in chapter 12 necessarily have to be "the church?" There are other explanations.

You did not even come close to answering.

There is now no salvation outside of the New Blood Covenant Church of Christ.

Now is now, but then is another time. What does NOW have to do with the future? "The meek shall inherit the earth." SOME will survive the future Day of the Lord and Daniel's 70th week and will still be alive to enter the millennial kingdom. So indeed there WILL BE "salvation" outside of the 'catching up" that will soon come. But this too will certainly be because of the Blood of the New Covenant, for Jesus took away the sins of the WORLD.

Paul plainly said in Romans chapter 11 that the branches broken off must be grafted back into the Olive Tree through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the Church.

No, the Olive tree is JEWISH, for "salvation is of the Jews." JESUS was a Jew!

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Had God turned His back on Israel? What then is His purpose of making them jealous?

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

God will NOT abandon them. Paul continues:

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

WHOSE olive tree? THEIRS: it is the Jewish Olive tree. Paul tells us some will be grafted BACK to their three. In other words, will be saved.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Note carefully "they are beloved!" They are enemies of the gospel, but they are beloved of God.

Now stop and think: even in your false theories, the rapture when Jesus comes, all the saved will be changed into imortal beings. Yet unless you are completely blind to the scriptures, you know that AFTER HE COMES, and AFTER the sheep and goat judgment, there will still be people in natural bodies that were declared sheep. They did NOT get to be sheep by way of being born again OR THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN CAUGHT UP with the church.

You will probably say they were born again AFTER the rapture. If so, that would STILL leave them as natural bodies and not immortal bodies. So they were saved OUTSIDE the "church" that was caught up.

And by the way, in your theory, all would MISS the marriage and supper which will take place in heaven before Jesus comes.

Revelation 12:17 the woman represents Israel the bible tells us that in Genesis 37:9-10. The children of Israel are In verse 17 who hold the commandments are the right standing Jews throughout the rest of the world, as the nation of Israel has supernatural protection. These children could also represent Christians as we're grafted into the tree of righteous Jews through faith. But, that's no matter, because we KNOW that the ones who hold to the testimony of Jesus (the end of verse 17), are Christians...FOR SURE. Hold to the testimony of Jesus = Christians who don't bend to the rule of the AC.

 

[Fusion77]

A wise bible professor at a bible college said something I have never forgotten. It has been far too long for me to get close to word for word, but I remember the gist of what he said. God is a self revealing God, and over time reveals more and more of Himself and His kingdom. Therefore doctrine should be formed from later revelations rather then former ones, and from the most indepth scriptures on a subject rather than an overview verse, and then missing pieces filled in from the lessor verses. Revelation is by far the most in depth look we have at the future. Yet some on this thread just IGNORE what John wrote and hold to a doctrine or theory that is flatly refuted in Revelation. We should form our doctrine FIRST from Revelation and they fill in missing pieces from the minor prophets. It seems you have done just the opposite.

However, if indeed God has showed you these things, they MUST fit with John's Revelation. However how do you know that prophecy was for 2015? Why not 2016 or 2020?

Read in Amplified:

20 And again the word of the Lord came to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month (Dec 18, 520 b.c.), saying, 21 “Speak to Zerubbabel governor of Judah, saying, ‘I am going to shake the heavens and the earth. 22 I will [in the distant future] overthrow the thrones of kingdoms and destroy the power of the kingdoms of the [ungodly] nations; and I will overthrow the chariots and those who ride in them, and the horses and their riders will go down, every one by the sword of his brother [annihilating one another]. 23 ‘On that day,’ declares the Lord of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, My servant,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will make you [through the Messiah, your descendant] like a signet ring, for I have chosen you [as the one with whom to renew My covenant to David’s line],’” declares the Lord of hosts.

This makes perfect sense in the sense it is written, that the word of the Lord to Haggai was for him to speak to Zerubbabel THEN, 520 BC and give him the message.

If there is a second meaning, for the future, God would have to tell me. I would REALLY like to know how God taught you this.

We have Psalm 83. We have Ezekiel 38 & 39. WE have an imminent war which will probably be started with someone bombing Iran's nuclear facilities. But who knows? It could be started with North Korea. In any case I think it is VERY SOON. Will it last right up to the battle of Armageddon? It could, but I doubt it. It might turn things so that Israel can build their temple.

You mention the word wise. Let me give you a word of child like advice. These things have been hidden from human intellect for years. God often hides things from the wise and learned but reveals them to the childlike. It's up to us to ."glean" what we can from the teachers, professors that we listen to. But, accept what God is giving as a child. Things that were sealed, up to this point are being unsealed...because it's a time such as this.


God is speaking Now, because it is a time such as this. He is speaking collectively to His body. Be sure to open your heart and ready to receive things in that "child like manner", so your heart will be receptive to the urging of the Holy Spirit.

Part of being truly wise, includes being teachable. In order to be teachable, we sometimes must accept/receive Gods revelations in a "childlike manner" (teachable).

 

[Postvieww]

Wow! "some" depart has now turned into a great apostasy! The truth is "some" have always been departing and some new have come, but in general more new have come than the old departed: the church has steadily GROWN over time, not gotten smaller. You should know this! How can "some shall depart" agree with THE (a very significant) departing?

Simple Definition of "some"

—used to refer to a person or thing that is not known, named, or specified

: of an unspecified amount or number

: of a fairly large amount or number


It is you who determined “some” cannot be a great amount. SOMEtimes you are wrong.

1 Tim. 4:1 is in the “latter times”

2 Thess 2: 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I would say 2 Thess 2 is in the later times as well, wouldn’t you?

Luke 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

What was Jesus implying here?

 

[Luke17:37]

Actually, the trumpets and vials aren't the same events, for the trumpets will occur before the vials and affect only 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7 to 9:18), whereas the vials will affect things in their entirety (Revelation 16). The 7 plagues of the 7 vials will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

That's just your opinion. It doesn't mean you're right. (It doesn't mean I'm right either.)

 

[Fusion77]

Why don't we just believe what is written?

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

I frequently write of John massive use of the Greek Aorist tense verbs. Perhaps 90% of John's verbs are Aorist. But here, speaking of the two witnesses, he uses future tense verbs. I believe the Holy Spirit had him use future tense verbs to show conclusively that their time of testifying will be in the SECOND half, not the first.

So what does John tell us? They suddenly SHOW UP, John saw them, and started to write of them. If you will notice, we could cut this portion (of the two witnesses) out and paste it in almost anywhere because of the way it is written, as a parentheses. But John put it right here, because they show up right here because the man of sin just showed up. They come right on time. Now read it closely and don't add anything: they testify (speaking words) for 1260 days. Then they die. After they die, then cannot testify or speak words any longer. So their time conclusive will be 1260 days plus 3 1/2 days total. If you add more, you will be adding to John;s book: not wise.

If what you think you know from Haggai and Zech. does not fit, they I would throw it into file 13, for it is wrong. They come from heaven and suddenly SHOW UP in Jerusalem. They have 1260 days of being alive on earth to testify, and 3 1/2 days to witness as they lay dead and then rise up. The very fact that they rise up should show all in the world that they were indeed from GOD.

I could never throw Haggai and Zechariah in a file 13. It's true meaning, has come DIRECTLY from God. Because you don't yet have a clear understanding.

You should look at Haggai real close. You'll see, anytime Darius's name is in the message it represents a timeline. It shows the message was received in 520 BC. You can see, in those messages there will be a dialogue, a command given, an action taken, a task completed ect. etc.


Anytime Darius's name is NOT in the timeline, it's just the opposite. You'll see an unfulfilled prophecy, an unfulfilled event, or promise, you'll see an allusion to a future temple or something that didn't apply to the people of that day, you'll see no dialogue, questions asked but not answered etc. etc.


You know Haggai 2:5 isn't a promise to the nation of Israel. They were a sinful unrepentant people throughout most of their history. 1 Corinthians 10:6-11 God brought them out of Egypt with a mighty outstretched arm Jeremiah 32:21 Psalms 136:11-12 Deuteronomy 26:8. Not with an unconditional covenant of His Spirit to abide in their midst. Because we can conclude this isn't addressed to the nation of Israel, we know it's intended for someone else. Haggai 2:5 is speaking of the new covenant that's He made with us when we came out of Egypt, which is figurative for sin. Zechariah 4:6 is the covenant He made with the witness when he came out of sin and Haggai 2:5 is the covenant He made with the believer when they came out of sin (Egypt) Zechariah 14:14 Haggai 2:7-8 same thing. the shaking in Haggai 2:6 is the FINAL shaking. It shakes ALL heavens, earth, dry land and sea. Haggai 2:9 Is NOT speaking of a temple of the past or tribulation. It's not referring to temple 1 2 or 3. It's a future temple, where there will be PEACE. There will be NO peace until Christ reigns as King and High Priest in Jerusalem. Zerubbabel is a TYPE of the Witness in this message, and the people of the land are a TYPE of the church. (They'll be here).

The AOD will happen during the fall feasts. The AC will play on Zechariah 14:16. I can tell it happens because this future message will come on the 8th day of the feast of tabernacles 20??. Haggai 2:1. I can see the future through the prophets, and so will you, some time, whether sooner, or later.


I said I don't have a good understanding of all of Revelation. But, neither does anyone, in my opinion. Some things in Revelation will soon come "to light", because it is a time such as this.

 

[Riberra]

If the word heaven mentioned in Matthew 24:31, showing Matthew using the words gather from heaven than why Paul used the words shall be caught up in 1 Thess 4:15-17 instead.

Which direction do people go in the rapture, up or down? (show us in scripture, not theory) Only solution for a post trib rapture would be a YO-YO because it'll go down first before going up.

[1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

There is no trip to Heaven where God reside mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 this agree with Matthew 24:29-31 perfectly.
The caught up and gathering together (Rapture) is to meet Jesus in the air Unto the Coming of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.





.

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 12:17 the woman represents Israel the bible tells us that in Genesis 37:9-10. The children of Israel are In verse 17 who hold the commandments are the right standing Jews throughout the rest of the world, as the nation of Israel has supernatural protection. These children could also represent Christians as we're grafted into the tree of righteous Jews through faith. But, that's no matter, because we KNOW that the ones who hold to the testimony of Jesus (the end of verse 17), are Christians...FOR SURE. Hold to the testimony of Jesus = Christians who don't bend to the rule of the AC.

Let's look:

"17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

There are TWO groups of people here. First there is the "woman" whom you have rightly shown are descendants of Jacob; but not all, for here John tells us it will be those who fled into the wilderness.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

So in verse 17 it will be only that part of "the woman" or Israel that fled into the wilderness upon seeing the abomination. Verse 17 then will NOT include all those that did not flee into the wilderness but stayed home, so to speak.

There is no verse anywhere that tells us Jews or Hebrews in ANY OTHER PART OF THE WORLD will get supernatural protection. (Perhaps you have found a verse?)

Second, there is the next group as you have shown, are those around the world who "hold to the testimony of Jesus" and as you say are certainly Christians.

My point is, this second group could very well be NEW BELIEVERS along with those believers who were left behind. Just because John tells us of beleivers does not prove there was no pretrib rapture.

 

[iamlamad]

You mention the word wise. Let me give you a word of child like advice. These things have been hidden from human intellect for years. God often hides things from the wise and learned but reveals them to the childlike. It's up to us to ."glean" what we can from the teachers, professors that we listen to. But, accept what God is giving as a child. Things that were sealed, up to this point are being unsealed...because it's a time such as this.


God is speaking Now, because it is a time such as this. He is speaking collectively to His body. Be sure to open your heart and ready to receive things in that "child like manner", so your heart will be receptive to the urging of the Holy Spirit.

Part of being truly wise, includes being teachable. In order to be teachable, we sometimes must accept/receive Gods revelations in a "childlike manner" (teachable).

Of course this bible professor was using human wisdom, but it was GOOD human wisdom. For those places in the bible where a believe does not understand and God has not taught them, what he said was correct.

I don't know why God chose to teach me anything about Revelation. All I know is He did. Before me He tried to teach my older brother - who tried to get in interested, but at that time I would not. He went on to heaven and God pulled me into studying the end times. As you say, we are very close to the end and it is TIME for sealed things to be UNsealed.

I agree, we must remain teachable: but then, we must at the same time NOT be teachable to false doctrine!

 

[Riberra]

I agree, we must remain teachable: but then, we must at the same time NOT be teachable to false doctrine!

Then that mean that you have lot of work to do to correct your actual beheavior of preaching false doctrine.

 

[Postvieww]

Question #1 Will all things be restored before the tribulation?


Question #2 If not, how can Jesus return before then?


Acts3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

 

[iamlamad]

Simple Definition of "some"

—used to refer to a person or thing that is not known, named, or specified

: of an unspecified amount or number

: of a fairly large amount or number


It is you who determined “some” cannot be a great amount. SOMEtimes you are wrong.

1 Tim. 4:1 is in the “latter times”

2 Thess 2: 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I would say 2 Thess 2 is in the later times as well, wouldn’t you?

Luke 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

What was Jesus implying here?

This last sentence is a part of a parable. So finding faith on earth when He comes is related to the parable. But the parable is in the context of His coming. Jesus said, HERE or pay close attention to what the UNJUST Judge said.

"Though I fear not God, nor regard man; Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me."

This unjust judge is not God, for he said he does not fear God, and he is not man because he said he does not regard man: therefore this unjust judge is Satan himself. And Satan himself can be forced to back off if we are persistent in our attack against him. For example, there was a man who had a child whose feet were backward, that is his toes pointed to the rear instead of to the front. But he TALKED to those feet, day after day, day after day for about a years, and slowly day after day those feet on his boy turned until they were normal. This is an example of forcing the devil to retreat. I could give several other examples.

Jesus then was saying, if the devil can be forced to avenge He, God will avenge SPEEDILY! But "speedily" to God may not seem speedily to us: "though he bare long with them!" Notice it says those that "cry unto Him day and night." This is consistent and persistent prayer.

I think the point is, this parable is to teach us NEVER TO GIVE UP! We should trust in God and pray day after day, night after night until God moves on our behalf.

His final thought, when He comes, will we His children or His elect have given up on God as if He would never answer - or are will we STILL be in faith trusting in Him? Some people cry day and night for a week and give up on God, thinking He does not hear or does not care. He DOES care, but I have found that God does not pay much attention to lackadaisical prayers.

Your thoughts on this parable?

 

[Luke17:37]

The seals, trumpets and vials are in sequence. Other than that there are interludes in the book of Revelation. The masses are confused, I'm not excluded. In the 7th seal are the trumpets and vials, after the 7th trumpet comes the 7 vials. The mark of the beast will not be in effect until after the 6th trumpet war. Not necessarily immediately, but sometime after and 3.5 years before the 7th trumpet. I don't think you'll be able to find mention of the mark of the beast in any of the seal judgements (until the 7th seal, which holds trumps and vials),or trumpets because it's not in effect.

Revelation 6:16-17 isn't the wrath of God. I can see now that it's just another thing in there that obviously has the masses confused. How could we ever assume that some foolish men have any concept of what THE wrath of God is. I mean, on a personal scale they're going to face the wrath of God, it hell. But, this isn't the wrath of God.

Well, the people are killed because they refuse to take the mark of the beast. The first mention of martyrs is Seal 5. But that doesn't agree with your perspective on Revelation so you might not consider it.

 

[Fusion77]

Well, the people are killed because they refuse to take the mark of the beast. The first mention of martyrs is Seal 5. But that doesn't agree with your perspective on Revelation so you might not consider it.

We've got to be past the 5th seal. Wasn't Stephen a martyr in acts 7:59? Did he refuse the mark of the beast? No! He was killed because he held the testimony of Jesus. There's been Martyrs for almost 2000 years. Martrys for the testimony of Jesus...and no mark. The 5th seal doesn't mention a Mark, simply martyrdom.

Please, tell me where the 5th seal mentions the mark of the beast. Maybe I've missed something.

Revelation 1:19 we're dealing with past, present and future. Everyone looks Revelation as primarily future. We need to distinguish between the 3.

 

[iamlamad]

I could never throw Haggai and Zechariah in a file 13. It's true meaning, has come DIRECTLY from God. Because you don't yet have a clear understanding.
I can say the very same thing for what God has taught me. So as I said, if indeed we both heard from God, then both theories MUST agree. Do you agree?

You should look at Haggai real close. You'll see, anytime Darius's name is in the message it represents a timeline. It shows the message was received in 520 BC. You can see, in those messages there will be a dialogue, a command given, an action taken, a task completed ect. etc.
I find that Darius is mentioned twice in chapter 1 and only once in chapter 2, both related ONLY to timing. In the first instance it is the Lord speaking ABOUT the people and what the people are saying: "it is not time to build the Lord's house."

In the second instance it is about the Lord stirring up the people who in one accord begin building.

Anytime Darius's name is NOT in the timeline, it's just the opposite. You'll see an unfulfilled prophecy, an unfulfilled event, or promise, you'll see an allusion to a future temple or something that didn't apply to the people of that day, you'll see no dialogue, questions asked but not answered etc. etc.

OK, in chapter 1, starting in verse 3 Haggai prophecies to the people about the very same subject: time to build the Lord's house.
8 Go up to the mountain, and bring wood, and build the house; and I will take pleasure in it, and I will be glorified, saith the Lord.
Haggai prophesies that they reason their life is poor is BECAUSE they have put their own houses before God's house.
I find then in chapter one that the entire chapter seems very consistent in speaking of building the Lord's house back then. I can find no hint of anything future here.


You know Haggai 2:5 isn't a promise to the nation of Israel.
In chapter 2 I read this:
6 For thus saith the Lord of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;

7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of hosts.

8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the Lord of hosts.

9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the Lord of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the Lord of hosts.

I agree, this is NOT about them building a temple back then. Good point. Perhaps this "latter house" is referring to Ezekiel's temple which will be for the millennial reign. I take it that the shaking of both heaven and earth will come during the Day of the Lord and the 70th week of Daniel and will begin at the 6th seal.

5 According to the word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, so my spirit remaineth among you: fear ye not.

So WHO came out of Egypt? Was it not the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? How can you say then it is not a promise to Israel? Because of the "So my spirit remains among you?" I think there is proof that God's spirit was among them. Even when Elijah said he was the only one, God said He had 7000.

Then Darius is mentioned in verse 10.

Later I find another reference that certainly is future:
20 And again the word of the Lord came unto Haggai in the four and twentieth day of the month, saying,
21 Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth;
22 And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.
23 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the Lord, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the Lord of hosts.

THAT DAY almost always refers to "The Day of the Lord."

They were a sinful unrepentant people throughout most of their history. 1 Corinthians 10:6-11 God brought them out of Egypt with a mighty outstretched arm Jeremiah 32:21 Psalms 136:11-12 Deuteronomy 26:8. Not with an unconditional covenant of His Spirit to abide in their midst. Because we can conclude this isn't addressed to the nation of Israel, we know it's intended for someone else. Haggai 2:5 is speaking of the new covenant that's He made with us when we came out of Egypt, which is figurative for sin. Zechariah 4:6 is the covenant He made with the witness when he came out of sin and Haggai 2:5 is the covenant He made with the believer when they came out of sin (Egypt) Zechariah 14:14 Haggai 2:7-8 same thing. the shaking in Haggai 2:6 is the FINAL shaking. It shakes ALL heavens, earth, dry land and sea. Haggai 2:9 Is NOT speaking of a temple of the past or tribulation. It's not referring to temple 1 2 or 3. It's a future temple, where there will be PEACE. There will be NO peace until Christ reigns as King and High Priest in Jerusalem. Zerubbabel is a TYPE of the Witness in this message, and the people of the land are a TYPE of the church. (They'll be here).

The AOD will happen during the fall feasts.
HOW do you know this?

The AC will play on Zechariah 14:16.
This verse is referring to the Millennial Reign! The AC will have been in the lake of fire for a while.

I can tell it happens because this future message will come on the 8th day of the feast of tabernacles 20??.
Show me how you know this. Are you using Haggai's dates?

Haggai 2:1. I can see the future through the prophets, and so will you, some time, whether sooner, or later.


I said I don't have a good understanding of all of Revelation. But, neither does anyone, in my opinion. Some things in Revelation will soon come "to light", because it is a time such as this.

Lamad's answers in dark red.

 

[Luke17:37]

We've got to be past the 5th seal. Wasn't Stephen a martyr in acts 7:59? Did he refuse the mark of the beast? No! He was killed because he held the testimony of Jesus. There's been Martyrs for almost 2000 years. Martrys for the testimony of Jesus...and no mark. The 5th seal doesn't mention a Mark, simply martyrdom.

Please, tell me where the 5th seal mentions the mark of the beast. Maybe I've missed something.

Not all martyrs are martyrs because of the Great Tribulation. Did a false Christ peacefully conquer in the first century? No. Was there worldwide war? No. Was there severe famine? No. Were 1/4 of the earth's population killed in the first century, before Stephen's martyrdom? No.

Seal 5
Revelation 6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Revelation 7:9, 13-14
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,...
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If you read these passages in a straightforward way, the multitude in the white robes (chapter 7) were killed in the great tribulation. The context doesn't suggest that all the martyrs of all time - just the martyrs of the tribulation. These white robes martyrs first appear in the fifth seal.

The reason they are slain is given here:

Revelation 14:15-17
15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

And this also mentions those who were beheaded because they didn't take the mark of the beast:

Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Not every passage has to mention every detail. Ch 6 associates martyrdom with white robes. Ch 7 associates white robes and people who came out of the tribulation. (I think it's clear given that John knew their identity that we should think of Ch 6.) Ch. 14 introduces the mark of the beast. Ch 20. describes the beheaded, who refused to take the mark of the beast.

 

[Fusion77]

Let's look:

"17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

There are TWO groups of people here. First there is the "woman" whom you have rightly shown are descendants of Jacob; but not all, for here John tells us it will be those who fled into the wilderness.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

So in verse 17 it will be only that part of "the woman" or Israel that fled into the wilderness upon seeing the abomination. Verse 17 then will NOT include all those that did not flee into the wilderness but stayed home, so to speak.

There is no verse anywhere that tells us Jews or Hebrews in ANY OTHER PART OF THE WORLD will get supernatural protection. (Perhaps you have found a verse?)

Second, there is the next group as you have shown, are those around the world who "hold to the testimony of Jesus" and as you say are certainly Christians.

My point is, this second group could very well be NEW BELIEVERS along with those believers who were left behind. Just because John tells us of beleivers does not prove there was no pretrib rapture.

The dragon will make war with Jews throughout the world, as well as Christians. The supernatural (or whatever way the protection comes) will be for the Jews in "their" (her) place Revelation 12:14 where is "Her" (Israels) place? The land of Israel. However, we do know that there will be tribulation for the people of Judea. Where is Judea? Currently West Bank, Palestinian controlled. I Expect the covenant the settle the borders, and make a "2 state solution", wherein, Judea is actually Palestinian controlled. For those who choose to stay after the covenant tribulation awaits.


So... The woman, Israel is protected in Her place ( inside Her borders, but not including what will likely be recognized at Palestine, The land of Judea).

 

[Riberra]

Not all martyrs are martyrs because of the Great Tribulation.

Those killed because they refused the mark during the tribulation are clearly mentioned in Revelation 15:2

Revelation 15(KJV)

15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.