Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[Goatee]

So who are "true catholics" and where do you find them?

One could say the same for any denomination.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I love the Hail Mary. Most of it is right out of the Bible. And all of it is part of the Word of God.

The third part of the Hail Mary prayer is not from the Bible and is, in fact, in direct contradiction to Scriptural truth: “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”

This last part of the Hail Mary prayer has three unbiblical parts to it. First, Mary is not and never was “holy.” Mary was a human being who was born, as all humans are, with a sin nature and who recognized that she needed a Savior. In fact, the very passage used in the Hail Mary, known as Mary’s Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55), contains the declaration “my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,” a clear indication that she understood her need for a Savior from sin. The Bible never says that Mary was anyone but an ordinary human whom God chose to use in an extraordinary way. Yes, Mary was a righteous woman and favored (graced) by God (Luke 1:27-28). At the same time, Mary was a sinful human being who needed Jesus Christ as her Savior, just like everyone else (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1 John 1:8).

The second unbiblical part of the Hail Mary is addressing Mary as the “Mother of God.” Mary was the human mother of the human Jesus Christ, who was indeed God incarnate. But she was not the mother of God, neither is she the ”queen of heaven,” another title given to her by the Catholic Church which has no basis in Scripture. God doesn’t have a mother, nor does He have a queen. He is an eternal, infinite Being, uncreated and unborn, self-sufficient and self-sustaining.

The third unbiblical statement in the Hail Mary is the plea for her to “pray for us sinners.” Here we see the unbiblical practice of praying to Mary to intercede with God for us. First, we do not need another intercessor with God. Christ is the only intercessor we need. Through Jesus and Him alone, we have direct access to the Father. Christ alone mediates and intercedes between God and man. “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). Prayer to anyone other than God alone is anti-biblical. Praying to Mary or petitioning her to pray for us is against the Scriptures. Prayer is an act of worship. When we pray to God, we are admitting that we need His help. Directing our prayers to anyone other than God is robbing God of the glory that is His alone, something God hates and will not tolerate (Isaiah 42:8).

While Mary was certainly a godly young woman greatly blessed in that she was chosen to bear the Savior of the world, she was not in any way divine, nor was she sinless, nor is she to be worshipped, revered, venerated, or prayed to.

 

[patricius79]

But you are praying directly to Mary. If you were to pray to Mary it would assume three things:

1. She has the ability to hear your prayers. If people all around the world are praying to her, how can she hear all of them at the same time unless she had the power to be everywhere at once



2. She has to have the wisdom to best respond to everyone's prayers.

3. She has to have the power to respond to everyone's prayers

There is only ONE being who can do this and I don't think it is her. Also, let's look at what the bible says about praying to the dead.

Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done.

Consider the characteristics of God. God is omnipresent—everywhere at once—and is capable of hearing every prayer in the world (Psalm 139:7-12). A human being, on the other hand, does not possess this attribute. Also, God is the only one with the power to answer prayer. In this regard, God is omnipotent—all powerful (Revelation 19:6). Certainly this is an attribute a human being—dead or alive—does not possess. Finally, God is omniscient—He knows everything (Psalm 147:4-5). Even before we pray, God knows our genuine needs and knows them better than we do. Not only does He know our needs, but He answers our prayers according to His perfect will.

So, in order for a dead person to receive prayers, the dead individual has to hear the prayer, possess the power to answer it, and know how to answer it in a way that is best for the individual praying. Only God hears and answers prayer because of His perfect essence and because of what some theologians call His “immanence.” Immanence is the quality of God that causes Him to be directly involved with the affairs of mankind (1 Timothy 6:14-15); this includes answering prayer.

Even after a person dies, God is still involved with that person and his destination. Hebrews 9:27 says so: “…Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” If a person dies in Christ, he goes to heaven to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:1-9, especially verse 8); if a person dies in his sin, he goes to hell, and eventually everyone in hell will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15).

A person suffering in agony will not be able to hear or answer a prayer, nor will a person who is living in heavenly bliss with God. If we pray to someone and he is in eternal agony, should we expect him to be able to hear and answer our prayers? Likewise, would a person in heaven be concerned for temporal problems on earth? God has provided His Son, Jesus Christ, to be the mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5). With Jesus Christ as our mediator, we can go through Jesus to God. Why would we want to go through a sinful dead individual, especially when doing so risks the wrath of God?

I think you are making some arguments which are really oral traditions. I find that all the arguments against Marian doctrine and Catholic doctrine generally, go beyond Scripture

Those who--like the Mother of God--live and believe in Christ never die, because they eat the Bread of Life, which came down from heaven so that one may eat it and never die.

And just as God can give humans the ability to write inerrant Scripture, he can also give Mary, the New Eve, supernatural powers to be our spiritual Mother at all times and in all ways.

 

[Goatee]

Well, part of it is.

As an Anglican you must believe in Women Priests? Where in the Bible does it say they can be priests as this is a thread on Sola Scripture?

 

[Albion]

One could say the same for any denomination.

Not with that kind of definition.

There are many Catholics who are Catholic and who center their lives around the Body and Blood of Christ (John 6:53, John 6:55) and seek Him through the Mother of God,...

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

One could say the same for any denomination.

True

 

[patricius79]

The third part of the Hail Mary prayer is not from the Bible and is, in fact, in direct contradiction to Scriptural truth:

I don't think the Bible says that.

“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”

This last part of the Hail Mary prayer has three unbiblical parts to it. First, Mary is not and never was “holy.”[/QUOTE]

I don't think the Bible says that. The Mother of God, in fact--according to the Word of God (Catholic Tradition)--was holier than we can ever understand.

Mary was a human being who was born, as all humans are, with a sin nature and who recognized that she needed a Savior.


In fact, the very passage used in the Hail Mary, known as Mary’s Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55), contains the declaration “my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,” a clear indication that she understood her need for a Savior from sin. The Bible never says that Mary was anyone but an ordinary human whom God chose to use in an extraordinary way. Yes, Mary was a righteous woman and favored (graced) by God (Luke 1:27-28). At the same time, Mary was a sinful human being who needed Jesus Christ as her Savior, just like everyone else (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1 John 1:8).

The second unbiblical part of the Hail Mary is addressing Mary as the “Mother of God.” Mary was the human mother of the human Jesus Christ, who was indeed God incarnate. But she was not the mother of God, neither is she the ”queen of heaven,” another title given to her by the Catholic Church which has no basis in Scripture. God doesn’t have a mother, nor does He have a queen. He is an eternal, infinite Being, uncreated and unborn, self-sufficient and self-sustaining.
.

I think that you are partly right and partly going beyond Scripture. Mary did need a Savior. But according to the Word of God, she was saved from being born into Original Sin, and from ever sinning.

And yes, Mary is the Mother of God, because Jesus is God.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I think you are making some arguments which are really oral traditions. I find that all the arguments against Marian doctrine and Catholic doctrine generally, go beyond Scripture

Those who--like the Mother of God--live and believe in Christ never die, because they eat the Bread of Life, which came down from heaven so that one may eat it and never die.

And just as God can give humans the ability to write inerrant Scripture, he can also give Mary, the New Eve, supernatural powers to be our spiritual Mother at all times and in all ways.

Please give me a reference in the bible that justifies this about mary.

 

[Albion]

As an Anglican you must believe in Women Priests? Where in the Bible does it say they can be priests as this is a thread on Sola Scripture?

As an Anglican I do not. And my church does not. Wanna try for the Henry VIII thing instead?

 

[Fireinfolding]

So who are "true catholics" and where do you find them?

Well when you meet them they will usually inform you of their trueness ...

"We are the true church" (sort of cant miss it)

You will hear more about "the US" part
Than about the JES-US part
Or the Mary part.

They have rosaries, they often park them on their rear view mirrors in cars

This one is driving too fast but nothing a few hail Marys cant resolve for them

 

[Albion]

Please give me a reference in the bible that justifies this about mary.

Certainly not. Have you forgotten the operable premises--

1. "Word of God" means customs, legends, sanctioned opinion, etc., not the Bible.
2. If it's NOT in the Bible, this means that the Bible approves of it.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

As an Anglican you must believe in Women Priests? Where in the Bible does it say they can be priests as this is a thread on Sola Scripture?

I am in the same denomination as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, and Timothy....non-denominational. ...and to answer your question, I don't think there is anything specifically that says women can be pastors or priests.

 

[Goatee]

As an Anglican I do not. And my church does not. Wanna try for the Henry VIII thing instead?

Oh, so the Anglican church dont have women priests then?

 

[patricius79]

Please give me a reference in the bible that justifies this about mary.

The Bible teaches that Mary conceived Jesus with the Holy Spirit. I think the Marian doctrines, like the N.T. Canon and the doctrine of the Trinity are not explicit in Scripture. They are part of the oral Word of God, of which Scripture is a part. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not in the Bible at all. The Bible says to hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Please give me a reference in the bible that justifies this about mary.

You should take a peek into the Mariology forum, asking after that will be something you would have wished you never asked after, that board is so full of Mary nonsense it should be under fictitous religions

 

[Goatee]

I am in the same denomination as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, and Timothy....non-denominational. ...and to answer your question, I don't think there is anything specifically that says women can be pastors or priests.

Thats what i thought

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

As an Anglican you must believe in Women Priests? Where in the Bible does it say they can be priests as this is a thread on Sola Scripture?

Well, the Word of God proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11–12). In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world (1 Timothy 2:13–14). God, through the apostle Paul, restricts women from serving in roles of teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors over men, which definitely includes preaching to them, teaching them publicly, and exercising spiritual authority over them.

There are many objections to this view of women in pastoral ministry. A common one is that Paul restricts women from teaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated. However, 1 Timothy 2:11–14 nowhere mentions educational status. If education were a qualification for ministry, then the majority of Jesus’ disciples would not have been qualified. A second common objection is that Paul only restricted the women of Ephesus from teaching men (1 Timothy was written to Timothy, the pastor of the church in Ephesus). Ephesus was known for its temple to Artemis, and women were the authorities in that branch of paganism—therefore, the theory goes, Paul was only reacting against the female-led customs of the Ephesian idolaters, and the church needed to be different. However, the book of 1 Timothy nowhere mentions Artemis, nor does Paul mention the standard practice of Artemis worshipers as a reason for the restrictions in 1 Timothy 2:11–12.

A third objection is that Paul is only referring to husbands and wives, not men and women in general. The Greek words for “woman” and “man” in 1 Timothy 2 could refer to husbands and wives; however, the basic meaning of the words is broader than that. Further, the same Greek words are used in verses 8–10. Are only husbands to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger and disputing (verse 8)? Are only wives to dress modestly, have good deeds, and worship God (verses 9–10)? Of course not. Verses 8–10 clearly refer to all men and women, not just husbands and wives. There is nothing in the context that would indicate a narrowing to husbands and wives in verses 11–14.

Yet another objection to this interpretation of women in pastoral ministry is in relation to women who held positions of leadership in the Bible, specifically Miriam, Deborah, and Huldah in the Old Testament. It is true that these women were chosen by God for special service to Him and that they stand as models of faith, courage, and, yes, leadership. However, the authority of women in the Old Testament is not relevant to the issue of pastors in the church. The New Testament Epistles present a new paradigm for God’s people—the church, the body of Christ—and that paradigm involves an authority structure unique to the church, not for the nation of Israel or any other Old Testament entity.

Similar arguments are made using Priscilla and Phoebe in the New Testament. In Acts 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla’s name is mentioned first, perhaps indicating that she was more prominent in ministry than her husband. Did Priscilla and her husband teach the gospel of Jesus Christ to Apollos? Yes, in their home they “explained to him the way of God more adequately” (Acts 18:26). Does the Bible ever say that Priscilla pastored a church or taught publicly or became the spiritual leader of a congregation of saints? No. As far as we know, Priscilla was not involved in ministry activity in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11–14.

In Romans 16:1, Phoebe is called a “deacon” (or “servant”) in the church and is highly commended by Paul. But, as with Priscilla, there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that Phoebe was a pastor or a teacher of men in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not for deacons (1 Timothy 3:1–13; Titus 1:6–9).

The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11–14 makes the reason why women cannot be pastors perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for,” giving the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11–12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived” (verses 13–14). God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. The order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22–33) and in the church.

The fact that Eve was deceived is also given in 1 Timothy 2:14 as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This does not mean that women are gullible or that they are all more easily deceived than men. If all women are more easily deceived, why would they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? The text simply says that women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. God has chosen to give men the primary teaching authority in the church.

Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, evangelism, and helps. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22–23), and to proclaim the gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18–20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).

God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3–5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.

 

[Goatee]

Well when you meet them they will usually inform you of their trueness ...

"We are the true church" (sort of cant miss it)

You will hear more about "the US" part
Than about the JES-US part
Or the Mary part.

They have rosaries, they often park them on their rear view mirrors in cars

This one is driving too fast but nothing a few hail Marys cant resolve for them

And the way to recognise a true 'Non- Catholic' is by their 'private, fantastical interpretations of scripture!'

 

[patricius79]

So who are "true catholics" and where do you find them?

In strong Catholic parishes. Where I live, there are some weaker Catholic parishes, but we go to a strong and loving one. But even in the weak ones one can find Catholics who know and love the Word of God. The Church nearest to me is weak, but one of the best families we know goes there and is faithful to Mary and Jesus.

 

[patricius79]

Well, part of it is.

According to the Catholic Church, which is the source of the N.T. Canon, all of it is.