It should be Murder?

[SteveB28]

Quite a theory. Unfortunately the science is settled that at conception a new distinct human being is formed.

How fortunate that we do not rely solely upon narrow scientific descriptions to frame our attitudes and our laws towards murder.

 

[redleghunter]

It seems that many on this "Christian Forum" who mark their faith as "Atheist" are quick to comment on Abortion classified as "Murder." What is the "faith" of an Atheist? Since they reject Faith in the Almighty, it seems they have replaced it with faith in human reason, evolution or their own whim? I agree that it takes much more "believing" to be an Atheist than it does a Christian, but followers of Christ have much more concrete evidence to rest their believing on, since Scripture is the basis for all genuine truth. However, there is plenty of Biblical [Astronomy] evidence supporting the timing of Christ's birth for example; [Blog.try-god.org] with a scientific basis to rest on also. Why are Atheists so interested in a Christian Forum? If it is to criticize, perhaps they should first explain why numerous former Atheists who began studying Christianity, [like CS Lewis for 1] ended up as Christians themselves, due to where the evidence of their study led them-there are many more.

As for the Abortion issue, people are very quick to agree with the classification of Abortion as Murder, in the above discussion as a Capital offense, perhaps they would be surprised to learn that Old Testament Law penalty for one who injured a pregnant lady causing a miscarriage, was only a fine. If the OT considered this death of a fetus, "murder" than surely the sentence would have been based on "an eye for an eye," but it is not. [Ex. 21:22-24] Also recall that Adam did not become a living soul until he took his first breath [Gen. 2:7]. People need to consider all that Scripture has to say on a subject before they subordinate the life of a fully mature adult to that of a fetus, which is only the potential for life-once it takes its first breath!

They come here for various reasons. Some to proselytize, some because they are dyed in the wool antitheists, some just to debate, some curious looking at other ideas.

Some labeled as atheists also have accounts where they have a Christian label.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

I am uninterested in what you claim that a god may or may not have said. This discussion is about a proposal to change HUMAN law.

You will be interested the day you face the One who created you.

 

[redleghunter]

And, to repeat for the umpteenth time, history gives us an excellent picture of the outcome of illegalising abortions - women still have them performed, but under highly dangerous circumstances.

Be very clear about this. Your draconian suggestion will not reduce the number of abortions! Don't believe me? Go and check the number of abortions performed during the 1950's when the practice was illegal. Compare that with the number performed now.

All you succeed in doing is to place the health/lives of many, many women at risk - you won't 'save' a single fetus.

You may be right in that outlawing abortion and applying homicide laws starting with conception may not reduce abortions initially.

As the rates of arrests and convictions of abortionists go up the deterrence will settle in.

There's two lives involved and two human beings involved. That's the medical fact that any law needs to address.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

The killing of a foetus, yes. Which we, as communities and as legal bodies, have determined NOT to be murder.

Humans have no right to modify the Rules established by God for the moral behavior of those he created.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Should a mother who gives birth to a baby who is addicted to crack be charged with child abuse ?

Yes!

 

[redleghunter]

Oh, look. A man telling women how they should behave!

Now that would be ad hominem.

In said no such thing. By your OP it would be the law and citizens either conform to the law or become law breakers.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Given that, should women be forced to take that risk and put their children already born at risk of being motherless?

You face the same problem when a woman is guilty of murdering an adult!

 

[redleghunter]

I see. Prior to 1973 in your country, you 'got rid of the abortionists' by making them illegal.

There were no abortions performed in that time, correct? You "eliminated the problem", yes?

It was not eliminated but the laws were enforced.

The difference this time would be like post war Germany where people saw the holocaust were shocked at how a nation would conduct genocide on a wide scale. Same with the genocide of our young.

We have people complaining about illegal immigration and refugees but we need them given the 56 million babies slaughtered since Roe.

 

[Cearbhall]

Most of them are!

To the point that they want it to be illegal? Classified as murder if one of those actions results in a miscarriage?

 

[Nic Samojluk]

I believe that there are very rare examples where abortion would not be in my opinion "murder".

The duty of a physician is to save human lives. If he/she can save only one life, this is still pro-life. The doctor should be commended for being able to save at least one life.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

91% of abortions happen within the first 13 weeks of pregnancies. I doubt that those numbers would change were abortion to be criminalized.

Abortions were illegal for two thousand years prior to 1973 when it became legal to murder the unborn.

 

[redleghunter]

Period? You have a long way to go my friend! You conveniently skirt around the consequences of your cruelty. How many more times do I have to point out the historical evidence of the results of denying women access to safe services?

Or do you, Pilate-like, simply wash your hands with a 'that isn't my concern' attitude?

Responsibility begins with the actors in an action. Not those enforcing the law on the law breaker.

You have it backwards.

 

[redleghunter]

Correct. I will simply stay away from such a country. As with Syria at the moment.

Then women can move to Canada.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Trust me, I well remember the era in which women largely had to go 'underground' to procure a termination, usually at the hands of unskilled people. It wasn't pretty. Such a stupid, stupid proposition would send us back to those days.

Yes, and prior to the legalization of abortions the number of illegal abortions were a fraction of now legal abortions.

 

[redleghunter]

This discussion is about the law. About making abortion a murder charge. Start your own discussion please.

That's right. By your OP abortion would be illegal. So by the atheist ethic might is right and that means buck up and conform to the law because the law is the Law!

 

[Nic Samojluk]

In their manic zeal to find a way to control what women do with their own reproductive systems, the idiots who propose these measures simply don't care to examine the ramifications.

Their "own" reproductive systems? The Bible tells us that we do not own our bodies. They belong to the one who designed and created them.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Maybe those who think abortion is murder should start adopting one of the 114, 556 born children looking for a family after their mothers demonstrated they were pro-choice.

I have close relatives who traveled to the other side of the world at great expense for the privilege of adopted unwanted children.

 

[Cearbhall]

Who isn't concerned about those things. Most women can read labels and know from Kindergarten smoking and drinking is very bad during pregnancy. I have offered on several occasions to help pregnant women lugging bags around an airport terminal help with the bags. Some accept and some don't.

I meant in regards to the law. A woman choosing for herself that she won't drink or smoke during pregnancy is a pro-choice action. The pro-life position would be to treat it as child abuse, or murder if it results in miscarriage.

It's wonderful that you offer to help them, by the way.

The examples given of a first trimester miscarriage would be difficult to explore. That is why the providers would be the focus on any law.

What a country, in which people actually still want this in the 21st century. Thank goodness it will never happen. Women would never go in for medical care after miscarriages.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

You say most are natural miscarriages, but how do you know? Could be murder... Do you call in the cops, the feds..? I say lock up all pregnant women, if they conceive the are free to go. For now...

How did people handle such cases for two thousand years before the genocide of the unborn was legalized?: