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It should be Murder?

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redleghunter

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You've answered your own question. It has been deemed as appropriate to grant an exception in the case of abortion.

That was easy, wasn't it?

Easy and subjective ethics applied.

Which opens the door for further dehumanization of the infirm, mentally challenged, elderly, sick you name it.

The type of selective personhood for Black slaves as not fully human and the subhuman tag the Germans gave the Jews.
 
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redleghunter

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If your numbers are correct, then this tells me that there were 600,000 women who would formerly have had to resort to dangerous options who were now able to have safe abortions. This is a good thing.

Additionally, this tells me that an additional 600,000 who were formerly unable to procure the services they needed were now able to. This is also a good thing.

Thank you for the good news.

Which is not what you asked in the OP.
 
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Nic Samojluk

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The mothers rights should ALWAYS supersede that of the unborn until it is deemed viable, imo.
Every unborn baby will become viable if allowed to grow. Do you believe that Baby Jesus had no right to life before viability?
 
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SteveB28

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Who's putting words in whose mouth?

You are.

These are the exact quotes. You told me that if i wanted to argue what the law morally should be I should go start my own discussion.

Correct.

Wait for it........

That's a statement that in your opinion morality has nothing to do with it.

And there it is. I have said no such thing. You are lying.

Talk to yourself until you choose to speak honestly......
 
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SteveB28

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According to whom? And yes police do need reports to investigate a murder.



No one is dictating to women what they can or cannot do. Just as I can't dictate to you another male to engage in illegal activities. Laws are laws and are broken every day. When there is evidence for law breaking the police investigate and take appropriate action. The police get more calls for domestic violence on a given night than other calls. If there is evidence they investigate, if not, they don't.

Consequences? Sure, yes the consequences are a human being was murdered. You don't agree with me or science on that definition so no law is broken in your eyes. This has nothing to do with law enforcement or litigation or indictment. It has everything to do about who or what is a human being.

No. Decisions about what is and is not 'murder' are determined by our laws. That you disagree with the current legal standpoint on this issue changes naught.

Abortion is legal. It is not murder.
 
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redleghunter

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And, as has been repeated ad nauseum, all you would succeed in doing is to force women into the dangerous practices of the past. Pregnancies would still be terminated, with the additional impact of many women losing their lives as well.

Not true. Women still have choices. They can not get pregnant. Getting pregnant is a choice. When another human being is involved you then have competing rights. One is a right to life and the other is a liberty or pursuit of happiness right. Life trumps liberty every time except in the rationalization of the moral relativists.
 
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SteveB28

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The examples given of a first trimester miscarriage would be difficult to explore. That is why the providers would be the focus on any law. Now the ones that would be obvious was like in the WashPo article posted up thread. You have a severed baby from the mother and the body is thrown in the garbage. You can investigate that and they did.

Your 'stop the providers' mentality continues to avoid reality. As we have seen in the past, women will continue to procure abortions, whether or not they are illegal!

And they will mostly not be as glaringly obvious as the example given above. How do you suggest the vast bulk of terminated pregnancies be investigated, in order to determine the 'genuine' from the bogus?
 
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redleghunter

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Except when you reach a point wherein the majority of people no longer consider a behaviour to be illegal.

As we have now.

As we had in slave states.

As we had in WWII Germany.

As we had in the slaughter of children in Manchuria by the Japanese.

As we had the Stalinist purges in Russia.

As we had cannibalism at one point in history and in some places still exists.

All things society by majority said a ok to. Murderers all.
 
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Belk

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Not true. Women still have choices. They can not get pregnant. Getting pregnant is a choice. When another human being is involved you then have competing rights. One is a right to life and the other is a liberty or pursuit of happiness right. Life trumps liberty every time except in the rationalization of the moral relativists.


Which is why we have forced organ donations. you know, with life trumping liberty every time.
 
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Nic Samojluk

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You haven't thought this through very well at all, have you? You want to be able to dictate to women what they should and should not do, but haven't spent a moment on pondering the consequences.
Perhaps God is the one who did not ponder this through when he wrote the following on tablets of stone: "You shall not murder."

BTW, how did humanity manage to handle this issue for two millennia when abortion was illegal?
 
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SteveB28

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Not true. Women still have choices. They can not get pregnant. Getting pregnant is a choice. When another human being is involved you then have competing rights. One is a right to life and the other is a liberty or pursuit of happiness right. Life trumps liberty every time except in the rationalization of the moral relativists.

Absolute juvenile rubbish! Do you really think that all those millions of women in the past made conscious decisions to become pregnant, knowing that they would be facing the prospect of a back-yard abortionist, one often equipped with nothing more sophisticated than a bent coat hanger!?

The misogyny knows no bounds does it?
 
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SteveB28

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Perhaps God is the one who did not ponder this through when he wrote the following on tablets of stone: "You shall not murder."

BTW, how did humanity manage to handle this issue for two millennia when abortion was illegal?

I am uninterested in what you claim that a god may or may not have said. This discussion is about a proposal to change HUMAN law.
 
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redleghunter

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It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a person. When they unite to form a zygote it certainly is alive. There is a potential person there and a great many people would claim that it actually is a person. Let us grant for a moment that the zygote is a person and let us call that person Mary. I choose a female name since all embryos are female until about the sixth or seventh week.

Now, we all know that a zygote develops into an embryo through the process of cell division. Every now and again the first cell division does not produce a two celled embryo but rather a second zygote --- identical twins. Did Mary suddenly become two persons? Was Mary two persons to begin with? Was Mary even a person to begin with? Let us set those questions aside for the moment and grant that the second zygote is also a person whom we shall call Margaret. It is entirely possible that one or both of these zygotes could divide again to result in triplets, quadruplets, quintuplets etc. The same question applies as to whether one person can became two, three or more persons. When does a person become a person?

These questions might be difficult enough but now it becomes even more complex. Sometimes two eggs are fertilized to form non-identical twins. Once again, let us call them Mary and Margaret. Rarely the two zygotes merge together again to form a two celled embryo. This is called a chimera. Who is this new embryo? Is it Mary or is it Margaret? This new embryo, this chimera, let us call it Mary, develops to term and is born. There is now no question at all that Mary is indeed a person. But here is the odd thing, some of the organs of Mary carry her genes but other organs carry the genes of her twin sister Margaret. So Margaret continues to exist within Mary or perhaps it is Mary within Margaret. Do we have two persons within a single body?

These very serious questions of person-hood arise only if we assume that the soul is infused at conception and that the brand new zygote is fully a person. Is there a more reasonable understanding? I believe there is. Personally I believe that the developing fetus becomes a person only when it is able to survive outside the womb. Sentience occurs at about the same point in the pregnancy very late in the second trimester. For this reason I am against abortion beyond the twentieth week except in very rare extreme circumstances.. Otherwise I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare. In conclusion, we should always keep in mind that there is no more powerful abortifacient in the world than poverty.

Quite a theory. Unfortunately the science is settled that at conception a new distinct human being is formed.
 
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Belk

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Is abortion the killing of a distinct developing human being?


Hmmm... it appears that is not the definition of abortion, no.


Full Definition of abortion

1 : the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus: as
a : spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation — compare miscarriage
b : induced expulsion of a human fetus
c : expulsion of a fetus by a domestic animal often due to infection at any time before completion of pregnancy

I appears abortion is the expulsion of a fetus. That, unfortunately, ends in it's death.
 
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