Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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Riberra

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how do you know this is not an angel? All it says is the sound. Revelation 11:15 tells of who blows the trumpet to make the sound. So scripture interprets scripture.
In the case of Matthew 24:31... --a great sound of a trumpet is made by the -HE- ie Jesus who send his angels...
This can be the voice of Jesus sounding like a Trumpet...

Matthew 24

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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Fusion77

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In the case of Matthew 24:31 the sound of the trumpet is made by the -HE- ie Jesus who send his angels...
This can be the voice of Jesus souding like a Trumpet...

Matthew 24

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Wait. Where do you get that? It says He will send forth his angels.

Okay so He sends forth his angels.
From there if anything, it seems to indicate that it's the angel making the sound. We don't see Him coming in the clouds with great glory and a trumpet, or anything of that nature. If it said that I would agree with you.
 
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Riberra

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Wait. Where do you get that? It says He will send forth his angels.

Okay so He sends forth his angels.
From there if anything, it seems to indicate that it's the angel making the sound. We don't see Him coming in the clouds with great glory and a trumpet, or anything of that nature. If it said that I would agree with you.

-And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet-

This the HE who is at the origin of a great sound of a trumpet...

Matthew 24

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Lets see if we have in the Scripture a reference associating Jesus's voice and a sound as a sound of a trumpet.

Revelation 1:10

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
 
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Luke17:37

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Thanks for sharing!

I haven't had as much trouble with the 6th and 7th trumpets though. Mostly because there's a time line of sorts given in Revelation 11:2-3. Here we see 42 months and 1260 days. Because of this, for me, I safely assume this is during the Abomination of desolation. Therefore, I use Daniel among other books as a reference. Daniel 12:11 tells us 1290 days exactly. Luke 21:24 of course, describing the same events of Matthew 24:15, and beyond.



So I've always considered the abomination of desolation happening after the 6th trumpet. Daniel 11:21-45 speaks of the anti christ and his campaigns, and ultimate demise, to an extent. It speaks of (his), army of the north, with some resistance from the army of the south. In Revelation 9:15 the sixth trumpet speaks of some sort of an army that destroys 1/3 part of man. Because this seems to eminate from the Euprathes river, I don't see that as the army of the north or south.


I guess what I'm saying is I think the 6th trumpet will be before the abomination of desolation and the prophesying of the 2 witnesses, when they're clothed in sackcloth.

You're welcome!

Gotcha. That's one way of thinking about it.

I know that the 6th trumpet comes first in terms of its order of revelation, but I think, not necessarily in time. I think seal 5--the martyrs in the white robes--may suggest a midpoint before the 6th trumpet (and at or prior to the fifth seal).

Daniel 7:25
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time
.

Revelation 13:5-7
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Revelation 6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Revelation 7:9
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Revelation 7:13-14
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 3:17-18 (To the Church of Laodicea)
17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

Anyway, the truth (about timing of the judgments) will become apparent in time.
 
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Fusion77

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And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet

This the HE who is at the origin of the the sound of the trumpet...

Lets see if we have in the Scripture a reference associating Jesus and a sound as a sound of a trumpet.

Revelation 1:10

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind m
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet

This the HE who is at the origin of the great sound of a trumpet...

Matthew 24

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Lets see if we have in the Scripture a reference associating Jesus's voice and a sound as a sound of a trumpet.

Revelation 1:10

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
okay but that says that the voice of a trumpet, and has nothing to do with the catching away, or collecting of any people.


See, I think it's safer to go with the more obvious. All this says, is the voice of a trumpet. Also it has nothing to do with any catching away. Matthew 24:31 seems to indicate that he commands them to go forth at the sound of the trumpet. Like a battle call, but to gather His elect. In order for it to be something to consider, Matthew 24:31 would have to have the word voice. And even if it did, to much of a still a reach.

So I can understand your position though...do you think Matthew 24 is separate than the others I mentioned earlier?
 
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Fusion77

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-And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet-

This the HE who is at the origin of a great sound of a trumpet...

Matthew 24

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Lets see if we have in the Scripture a reference associating Jesus's voice and a sound as a sound of a trumpet.

Revelation 1:10

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,


Okay, my post got mixed up in your last one. Revelation mentions a voice. Matthew 24:31 doesn't. Revelation 1:10 has nothing to do with a catching away of, or collecting of people. It just gives a description of the sound or tone of His voice. Like I said, if Matthew 24:31 mentioned a voice it might be something to consider, but even then a far reach. I just think it's better to go with the more obvious.


But what is your opinion? Is it that Matthew 24:31 and the other ones I mentioned are different?
 
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Postvieww

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What you are pointing out is what I've been trying to say--just because every passage doesn't include every possible detail, it doesn't mean they are necessarily talking about different events.

For example:
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have different eyewitness accounts of the crucifixion of Jesus. They don't contradict each other even though they don't all point out the exact same details. Nobody would argue that Jesus was crucified four times.
Thank you so much for this post. I've tried to make this very point on some of these threads for over a year now. Except for Bab I've had very little support.
 
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Fusion77

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You're welcome!

Gotcha. That's one way of thinking about it.

I know that the 6th trumpet comes first in terms of its order of revelation, but I think, not necessarily in time. I think seal 5--the martyrs in the white robes--may suggest a midpoint before the 6th trumpet (and at or prior to the fifth seal).

Daniel 7:25
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time
.

Revelation 13:5-7
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Revelation 6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Revelation 7:9
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Revelation 7:13-14
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 3:17-18 (To the Church of Laodicea)
17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

Anyway, the truth (about timing of the judgments) will become apparent in time.
Yes, I believe Revelation 12:14 Revelation 13:5 Revelation 11:2-3 Daniel 7:25 Daniel 12:7 and Daniel 12:11 are all talking about the same period of time. However, I believe Revelation 11:3 1260 days is the shortest, which will begin 25 or so days after Daniel 12:11 which is the second longest (at 1290 days), and the longest time period, being every other one, at about 1298 days. (That is anywhere 3.5 years or 42 months is mentioned).
 
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Riberra

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okay but that says that the voice of a trumpet, and has nothing to do with the catching away, or collecting of any people.
I have given the reference of Revelation 1:10 about the voice of Jesus sounding like the sound of a trumpet that's all.
We know that the voice of Jesus is like the sound of a trumpet ...Hint Matthew 24:31

Our gathering happen in Matthew 24:29-31.

See, I think it's safer to go with the more obvious. All this says, is the voice of a trumpet. Also it has nothing to do with any catching away. Matthew 24:31 seems to indicate that he commands them to go forth at the sound of the trumpet. Like a battle call, but to gather His elect. In order for it to be something to consider, Matthew 24:31 would have to have the word voice. And even if it did, to much of a still a reach.

The fact remain that the HE mentioned in Matthew 24:31 is at the origin of the sound of a trumpet NOT an angel sounding in a trumpet like it is the case for the 7 trumpets of Revelation.

So I can understand your position though...do you think Matthew 24 is separate than the others I mentioned earlier?
-It is the same trump that Paul talk about .: /The last trump --The trump of God/.

-It is not the 7 Th Trumpet mentioned in Revelation.
 
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Luke17:37

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Yes, I believe Revelation 12:14 Revelation 13:5 Revelation 11:2-3 Daniel 7:25 Daniel 12:7 and Daniel 12:11 are all talking about the same period of time. However, I believe Revelation 11:3 1260 days is the shortest, which will begin 25 or so days after Daniel 12:11 which is the second longest (at 1290 days), and the longest time period, being every other one, at about 1298 days. (That is anywhere 3.5 years or 42 months is mentioned).

Yeah, I'm aware of the various day numbers around 3.5 years and agree they are talking about the same general time period. My main point was I think the martyrs of the fifth seal suggest the 3.5 years/1260 days/42 months (whatever) where the Antichrist has the upper hand over most Christians actually starts before the fifth seal, not after the sixth trumpet.
 
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Fusion77

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I have given the reference in Revelation 1:10 about the voice of Jesus sounding like the sound of a trumpet that's all.
Our gathering happen in Matthew 24:29-31.



The fact remain that the HE mentioned in Matthew 24:31 is at the origin of the sound of a trumpet NOT an angel sounding in a trumpet like it is the case for the 7 trumpets of Revelation.


-It is the same trump that Paul talk about .: /The last trump --The trump of God/.

-It is not the 7 Th Trumpet mentioned in Revelation.
okay, so Paul mentions 2. 1 in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 in 1 Thessalonians 4. You believe these are all the same but not Revelation 11:15. Okay, cool I got it.
 
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Riberra

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okay, so Paul mentions 2. 1 in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 in 1 Thessalonians 4. You believe these are all the same but not Revelation 11:15. Okay, cool I got it.
One way or another the demonstration is done that the Trump of God sounding the resurrection of those who died in Christ and our changing into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)and our caught up and gathering with them to meet jesus in the air that Paul talk about (1 Thessalonians 4:14-18) will not happen before the Tribulation.
 
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Fusion77

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I have given the reference of Revelation 1:10 about the voice of Jesus sounding like the sound of a trumpet that's all.
We know that the voice of Jesus is like the sound of a trumpet ...Hint Matthew 24:31

Our gathering happen in Matthew 24:29-31.



The fact remain that the HE mentioned in Matthew 24:31 is at the origin of the sound of a trumpet NOT an angel sounding in a trumpet like it is the case for the 7 trumpets of Revelation.


-It is the same trump that Paul talk about .: /The last trump --The trump of God/.

-It is not the 7 Th Trumpet mentioned in Revelation.
Yes, I understand your position. I think by being told that it's the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15, that's enough right there to conclude that they're the same, as the last trumpet is the 7th trumpet. However, there's more 1 Thessalonians 4:16, says it the trumpet of God, and not the voice of God, which sounds like a trumpet. Furthermore, it mentions a shout of the voice of the archangel. Matthew 24:31 just says He will send forth His angels. For example, He commands them, when you hear the trumpet sound...Gather the elect. Sending forth His angels when they hear the sound. Joel 2:1 says blow the trumpet. When the trumpet is blown, it makes a sound. So Matthew 24:31 is the sound of a trumpet, as the result of it being blown into, by the command of the Lord. They're all the same including revelation 11:15.

I don't think Revelation 1:10 is much of anything, but describing the tone or pitch of His voice. It's better to go for the obvious, as opposed to reaching for something. I don't think it's the Lords intent to hide these things from us. Therefore, the most obvious is the way to go on this.
 
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Fusion77

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One way or another the demonstration is done that the Trump of God sounding the resurrection of those who died in Christ and our changing into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)and our caught up and gathering with them to meet jesus in the air that Paul talk about (1 Thessalonians 4:14-18) will not happen before the Tribulation.
if you're saying they won't happen before the tribulation, I agree. None of them will, they'll all happen after the tribulation, and they're all the same. At least, that's my viewpoint.
 
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Riberra

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Yes, I understand your position. I think by being told that it's the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15, that's enough right there to conclude that they're the same, as the last trumpet is the 7th trumpet. However, there's more 1 Thessalonians 4:16, says it the trumpet of God, and not the voice of God, which sounds like a trumpet. Furthermore, it mentions a shout of the voice of the archangel. Matthew 24:31 just says He will send forth His angels. For example, He commands them, when you hear the trumpet sound...Gather the elect. Sending forth His angels when they hear the sound. Joel 2:1 says blow the trumpet. When the trumpet is blown, it makes a sound. So Matthew 24:31 is the sound of a trumpet, as the result of it being blown into, by the command of the Lord. They're all the same including revelation 11:15.

I don't think Revelation 1:10 is much of anything, but describing the tone or pitch of His voice. It's better to go for the obvious, as opposed to reaching for something. I don't think it's the Lords intent to hide these things from us. Therefore, the most obvious is the way to go on this.
You wrote:
Matthew 24:31 just says He will send forth His angels. For example, He commands them, when you hear the trumpet sound...Gather the elect. Sending forth His angels when they hear the sound.

He command them -.gather the elect -....

That fit perfectly with the VOICE of Jesus being the sound of a trumpet ... there is no mention that Jesus blowed in a trumpet.
 
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Fusion77

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You wrote:
Matthew 24:31 just says He will send forth His angels. For example, He commands them, when you hear the trumpet sound...Gather the elect. Sending forth His angels when they hear the sound.

He command them -.gather the elect -....

That fit perfectly with the VOICE of Jesus being the sound of a trumpet ... there is no mention that Jesus blowed in a trumpet.
Yeah. It's too much of a reach. But it's alright, because you believe He's coming back for His church. Like I said it's like apples to oranges.
 
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Riberra

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Yeah. It's too much of a reach. But it's alright, because you believe He's coming back for His church. Like I said it's like apples to oranges.
You wrote:
Like I said it's like apples to oranges.

I matters if you believe that Jesus will come for His Church BEFORE the Tribulation RATHER than AFTER the Tribulation.

So,what is your position about Jesus coming for His Church are you Pre-Tribulation or Post Tribulation ?

I think that you believe that Jesus will come for His Church BEFORE the Tribulation ,is that right ?
 
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Fusion77

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You wrote:
Like I said it's like apples to oranges.

I matters if you believe that Jesus will come for His Church BEFORE the Tribulation RATHER than AFTER the Tribulation.

So,what is your position about Jesus coming for His Church are you Pre-Tribulation or Post Tribulation ?

I think that you believe that Jesus will come for His Church BEFORE the Tribulation ,is that right ?
No, I believe Jesus returns after the tribulation. I believe all of those are the same. I believe the events in Revelation 11:1-15 are the final events. All the same as Daniel 7:25 Daniel 12:7 Daniel 12:11 Revelation 12:14 and Revelation 13:5. All the same time period with the 1260 days in Revelation 11:3 starting about 25 days after Daniel 12:11 has begun, and ending just before the 1290 days are completed.1260+ 25+ 3.5 plus 1.5 or so for the church to be caught up after the 7th trumpet. this time period is the from abomination of desolation. After that, the Church is gathered or caught up.
 
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Riberra

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No, I believe Jesus returns after the tribulation.
Agreed.
I believe all of those are the same. I believe the events in Revelation 11:1-15 are the final events. All the same as Daniel 7:25 Daniel 12:7 Daniel 12:11 Revelation 12:14 and Revelation 13:5. All the same time period with the 1260 days in Revelation 11:3 starting about 25 days after Daniel 12:11 has begun, and ending just before the 1290 days are completed.1260+ 25+ 3.5 plus 1.5 or so for the church to be caught up after the 7th trumpet. this time period is the from abomination of desolation. After that, the Church is gathered or caught up.
Are you saying that from Revelation 11:1-15 there will be 42 months of events to happen before the physical return of Jesus with power and great glory after the Tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31?

If so ,that mean that is is wrong to suppose that the Tribulation is finished at the sound of the 7th trumpet of Revelation 11:15.
 
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Fusion77

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Do you think a "trump of God" can be sounded by an angel?
Do you think a "trump of God" can be sounded by an angel?
Why certainly, and indeed it will be sounded by an angel. Revelation 8:2 the angels that stand before God are given trumpets. Who gives the trumpets to the angels who stand before God? They're standing right before God. Wouldn't logic say these are given by God? Trumpets of God, or did the angels make the trumpets? Or are they trumpets of God? Whenever an angel sounds a trumpet it's very specific not to refer to the trumpet as "his" or "their trumpet". These were trumpets given to the angels by God, maybe not directly handed by God, but all things are Gods. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the Greek word for trumpet is salpingi. No article indicating whether it is the (definite),or a (indefinite). It would directly translate with trumpet of God.

Look, I am cool with your view. I'd rather have you be overly cautious than slack. At least you know He will return to gather His church. But, on the contrary, I believe in the next few years you may begin to rethink you position. I wish you were right. But, with things I've been shown, I'm afraid you're mistaken.
 
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