Did the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday?

[Meowzltov]

27 Jesus said to them,

Jesus rarely spoke to Gentiles, and never spoke to all humanity. Some of what he said to the Jews is applicable to all humanity, and some of it was not. He told the Pharisees to keep the spice tax, but I don't think he meant to apply that to all of humanity. The use of the word "man" was COLLOQUIAL.

 

[BobRyan]

IS 66:23 "For MANKIND" as a day of worship.

Isaiah 66:23, future prophecy, not for now. Also, applies to every day, read it again.

Last part is a speculation on your part that does not survive the details in the text.

there are TWO cycles in Is 66:23 -- a MONTHLY and a WEEKLY "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath" --

THE TWO cycles are accurate because it is TWO cycles and not "one daily" -- which is obvious because there is not one place in all of scripture were "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath" means "daily".

No -- not one.

So then you have free will and can hold to that speculation no matter that it contradicts the details in the text -- but I am going to stick with scripture on this one.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus rarely spoke to Gentiles, and never spoke to all humanity. Some of what he said to the Jews is applicable to all humanity, and some of it was not. He told the Pharisees to keep the spice tax, but I don't think he meant to apply that to all of humanity. The use of the word "man" was COLLOQUIAL.

Matt 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

The teaching of Christ was for ALL - the book of Mark was written in compliance with the Matt 28 commission - so again we are going with Christ on this one.

 

[Meowzltov]

IS 66:23 "For MANKIND" as a day of worship.



Last part is a speculation on your part that does not survive the details in the text.

there are TWO cycles in Is 66:23 -- a MONTHLY and a WEEKLY "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath" --

THE TWO cycles are accurate because it is TWO cycles and not "one daily" -- which is obvious because there is not one place in all of scripture were "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath" means "daily".

No -- not one.

So then you have free will and can hold to that speculation no matter that it contradicts the details in the text -- but I am going to stick with scripture on this one.

Thank you for acknowledging that it is prophecy of the future.

If I say, "The workshop is from 1:00 to 4:00," it means all the time between 1:00 and 4:00. In the SAME WAY New Moon TO New Moon and Sabbath TO Sabbath means all the time in between inclusive. If Isaiah wanted to say ONLY Sabbaths, he would have said EVERY Sabbath or EACH Sabbath. SO.... this prophecy of the future means that we will always be going before the Lord, always worshiping him.

 

[Meowzltov]

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Yes. Christ spoke to his disciples, telling them that after his ascension they were to go even to the Gentiles. But Christ himself did not seek out Gentiles during his lifetime. He even said, "I am come to the lost of the House of Israel (sinful Jews)."

 

[BobRyan]

Yes. Christ spoke to his disciples, telling them that after his ascension they were to go even to the Gentiles. But Christ himself did not seek out Gentiles during his lifetime. He even said, "I am come to the lost of the House of Israel (sinful Jews)."

Notice that in response to Christ's command in Matt 28 -- we have the Gospels.

The Gospels are not simply "written for Jews" -- they were written for us. They are not called "the Gospels just for Jews" -- and I think you will agree to that.

John 17
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

Their "Word" went out to the world in the form of the Gospel accounts.

 

[Meowzltov]

Notice that in response to Christ's command in Matt 28 -- we have the Gospels.

The Gospels are not simply "written for Jews" -- they were written for us. They are not called "the Gospels just for Jews" -- and I think you will agree to that.

John 17
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

Their "Word" went out to the world in the form of the Gospel accounts.

Of course! We totally agree on this. My only point was that Christ, in his lifetime, did not attend to Gentiles.

 

[Cribstyl]

Good video clip.

It isn't Catholics who changed the Sabbath. The Sabbath day has never changed but its significance as a sign and a type of things to come has come to an end, as it should, because the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled it. Christ himself is our rest and his works as well as his passion, resurrection, and ascension are the works that please God so that we, who are his body, need not work to please God but may rest in the completed work of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus keeping days is no longer a law under which we must labour but rather keeping the Lord's day is a joyous celebration in remembrance of the day on which Jesus Christ our Lord rose from the grave and brought life and immortality to light. We honour the Lord on his day not as a matter of servitude but as sons and daughters rejoicing in the joy of our Lord.

It's very simple, really, Christ has risen and our sins are forgiven. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. That's the message of the gospel in a nutshell. Of course there is more, much more, than mere forgiveness in Christ but there is definitely forgiveness in him. That is why we celebrate the Lord's day. It is the day we were objectively set free from bondage to sin.

......

 

[bugkiller]

IS 66:23 "For MANKIND" as a day of worship.



Last part is a speculation on your part that does not survive the details in the text.

there are TWO cycles in Is 66:23 -- a MONTHLY and a WEEKLY "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath" --

THE TWO cycles are accurate because it is TWO cycles and not "one daily" -- which is obvious because there is not one place in all of scripture were "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath" means "daily".

No -- not one.

So then you have free will and can hold to that speculation no matter that it contradicts the details in the text -- but I am going to stick with scripture on this one.

Would you please point out exactly where Isa 66:23 says what you claim? I just don't find the word on in that verse.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Thank you for acknowledging that it is prophecy of the future.

If I say, "The workshop is from 1:00 to 4:00," it means all the time between 1:00 and 4:00. In the SAME WAY New Moon TO New Moon and Sabbath TO Sabbath means all the time in between inclusive. If Isaiah wanted to say ONLY Sabbaths, he would have said EVERY Sabbath or EACH Sabbath. SO.... this prophecy of the future means that we will always be going before the Lord, always worshiping him.

I have to Amen you on this specific post.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

IS 66:23 "For MANKIND" as a day of worship.

Last part is a speculation on your part that does not survive the details in the text.

there are TWO cycles in Is 66:23 -- a MONTHLY and a WEEKLY "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath" --

THE TWO cycles are accurate because it is TWO cycles and not "one daily" -- which is obvious because there is not one place in all of scripture were "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath" means "daily".

No -- not one.

So then you have free will and can hold to that speculation no matter that it contradicts the details in the text -- but I am going to stick with scripture on this one

Thank you for acknowledging that it is prophecy of the future.

And thank you for admitting that the OT text applies Sabbath to "All mankind" and for "all eternity". Of course we would never have all mankind worshiping God from "Sabbath to Sabbath" AND from "New Moon to New Moon" - until all the wicked were destroyed.

Yet as we see in Is 56 already speaks of gentiles keep the Sabbath in the "not future".

Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”


3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

If I say, "The workshop is from 1:00 to 4:00," it means all the time between 1:00 and 4:00.

Indeed - but as we have stated about a dozen times by now

-- the effort to turn Is 66 into the total nonsense of "workshop from 1pm to 4pm AND from 1pm to 5pm" is eisegetical insert and nonsense

---AND as noted there is no such thing in the Bible as "daily" being stated as "FROM Sabbath to Sabbath AND FROM New moon to New Moon" -- we all know that wrenching that into "daily" is utter nonsense. The Bible never does that.

-- AND they could "REMAIN before the Lord daily for worship" if the point is "they never leave that meeting". But they "come before the Lord" to worship from Sabbath to Sabbath AND FROM new moon to new moon

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Sabbath Commandment Ex 20:8-11 says that the "seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD Thy God".

And in Ex 16 we find these words "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath".

In Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath is the 7th day of creation week - and according to Genesis 2 it is then that the Sabbath is "Sanctified", blessed, set apart.

The Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith, D.L. Moody and many others admit that the "Sabbath was made for mankind" (Mark 2:27) and it began in Eden.

So then when - or how - was the Sabbath Commandment changed? How was the obligation, sanctity, blessing of the 7th day transferred to week-day-1??

One Catholic Author - of a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II describes it this way

=====================================================

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

One Catholic poster on this section of the board describes it this way.

Open Heart said: ↑
It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).

I know you don't like it that we did this. That's fine.

And how does the Bible define the "Solemnity" - the blessed, sanctified and binding obligation of the Sabbath -- in actual scripture.

Gen 2
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 20: 8, 11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

So how is that the Law of God is up for "edit" for change? For taking one of the Commandments - and "repointing it" so that now "another day" is blessed, sanctified, and made holy??

Open Heart said: ↑
It is simply called transferrence. Nothing more. Nothing less. The church has the authority to do this. It's like the government changing the route of a highway.

Indeed the RCC claims to have the authority to do that.

Possibly one more reason why the "sola scriptura" model of Acts 17:11 and Mark 7:6-13 gets some push back on certain threads by those who agree with the RCC's right to do such things.

========================== seem more of this topic here -

Oct 8, 2015 #1

 

[Meowzltov]

It isn't Catholics who changed the Sabbath.

Well the Sabbath is still on the Sabbath no doubt. But it was us Catholics that changed the Solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day.

 

[Meowzltov]

there are TWO cycles in Is 66:23 -- a MONTHLY and a WEEKLY "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath" --

"To" includes all the time in between, which means Isaiah is basically saying "all of the time."

 

[Meowzltov]

3 Do not let the son of the foreigner

It never says the son of the foreigner keeps the Shabbat.

 

[Meowzltov]

---AND as noted there is no such thing in the Bible as "daily" being stated as "FROM Sabbath to Sabbath AND FROM New moon to New Moon" -- we all know that wrenching that into "daily" is utter nonsense. The Bible never does that.

It's prophecy of an IDEAL time of always being with the Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

IS 66:23 "For MANKIND" as a day of worship.

Last part is a speculation on your part that does not survive the details in the text.

there are TWO cycles in Is 66:23 -- a MONTHLY and a WEEKLY "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath" --

THE TWO cycles are accurate because it is TWO cycles and not "one daily" -- which is obvious because there is not one place in all of scripture were "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath" means "daily".

No -- not one.

So then you have free will and can hold to that speculation no matter that it contradicts the details in the text -- but I am going to stick with scripture on this one

Thank you for acknowledging that it is prophecy of the future.

And thank you for admitting that the OT text applies Sabbath to "All mankind" and for "all eternity". Of course we would never have all mankind worshiping God from "Sabbath to Sabbath" AND from "New Moon to New Moon" - until all the wicked were destroyed.

Yet as we see in Is 56 already speaks of gentiles keep the Sabbath in the "not future".

Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”


3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

If I say, "The workshop is from 1:00 to 4:00," it means all the time between 1:00 and 4:00.

Indeed - but as we have stated about a dozen times by now

-- the effort to turn Is 66 into the total nonsense of "workshop from 1pm to 4pm AND from 1pm to 5pm" is eisegetical insert and nonsense

---AND as noted there is no such thing in the Bible as "daily" being stated as "FROM Sabbath to Sabbath AND FROM New moon to New Moon" -- we all know that wrenching that into "daily" is utter nonsense. The Bible never does that.

-- AND they could "REMAIN before the Lord daily for worship" if the point is "they never leave that meeting". But they "come before the Lord" to worship from Sabbath to Sabbath AND FROM new moon to new moon

"To" includes all the time in between, which means Isaiah is basically saying "all of the time."

1. Not a method used in all the Bible to mean "remain before the Lord daily" or any such thing.

2. There are TWO cycles in Is 66:23 - where you have re-imagined it to one constant "remain continually" for the text.

 

[BobRyan]

It never says the son of the foreigner keeps the Shabbat.

Until you read the text -and note that "everyone" includes the "son of the foreigner" in vs 6.


Isaiah 56
Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”


3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”


"There REMAINS therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" Heb 4.
"Worship HIM who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7
"EVERY Sabbath" they were in the synagogue preaching the Gospel to BOTH gentiles and Jews - Acts 18:1-5.
"EVERY Sabbath" scripture is read in the synagogues and this solves the problem of Acts 15 for gentiles.
"The Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 -- turns out --- that includes gentiles.

EVEN Dies Domini insists that the Sabbath commandment as with ALL the TEN commandments are for ALL MANKIND and "not just jews"

Your position opposed to both the Bible and your own Pope John Paul II - is a bit 'extreme' for a Catholic don't you think??

Dies Domini pt 11
"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown
of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."

 

[Meowzltov]

IS 66:23 "For MANKIND" as a day of worship.

Isaiah 66:23
a. means PERPETUAL worship
b. is prophecy of the future, not now

I've already answered everything in this post before. Do you have anything new to say?

 

[Meowzltov]

3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;

This verse warns about alienating the convert.