Free will, heaven, and probability

[Wgw]

The will of God is pretty much "Anything goes." He's allowed two extremes in that he has ordered his own people to commit genocide and then also allowed his own people to nearly have the same thing perpetrated on them. Countless other atrocities occurring for no good reason. So what can Satan possibly do to even match what we humans are doing? I'm asking why he hasn't twisted the Bible without our knowledge, and, what, you say there is some hedge of protection there? Some hedge of protection that a clever, ancient, malicious entity cannot impede while at the same time humans who are trying their hardest to preserve the Bible have trampled all over this hedge of protection. All according to the will of God? Surely you don't mean to say that we humans are violating the will of God...?

Human beings obviously act in a manner contrary to the desire of God, according to Orthodox doctrine; we are, like the devil, restricted by divine providence to what God will allow, in terms of potentiality, but not in terms of what we would do, could we do it. So the devil does act contrary to the preference of God but is still bound according to His will; that is to say, of the various evil acts the devil would, if he could, engage in, only a minority are actually allowed him; we in turn are restricted by virtue of our lifespan, physical limitations, natural disasters, and various other acts of God from engaging in every evil we should want to engage in.

In other words, we, and the devil, have free will. but are nor omnipotent; to the extent we have the freedom to sin, scripture itself attests to this beinf subject to divine control (see the imposition of the human lifespan in Genesis).

You have pretty much gone on record saying that Satan was created to help us, and that he has no free will.

I never said that. Those were always your words.

Now you are reversing it. Like I said a million times, you are wasting my time.

Your time? You are a participant, voluntarily, in a debate; no one forces you to debate on cf.com; we condescend to reply to your posts voluntarily under the special moderatorial regime of this forum. Thus I consider you have no right to accuse us of wasting your time, particularly given the inherently recreational nature of this forum.

No. You misunderstand. I was a Christian for two decades, so I know what your mark is. And you're missing it. The fact that it is imaginary is the cosmic joke you're missing out on.

Apparently you managed to be a Christisn without ever learning much about the core doctrines of the Christian faith, for example, eschatology, hamartiology, and so on. Which is in my experience an actual problem; I spent more than two decades as a Methodist without anyone bothering to explain to me the doctrine of the Trinity and why it mattered.

 

[Wgw]

The guy has changed his story on me. He has said that the devil was created to help us and that he has no free will. Does that sound like normal Christianity to you?

I never said that. You misinterpreted my posts.

 

[elopez]

Re-read the OP and answer it.

I did. You refuse to further the dialog with no meaningful response.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I did. You refuse to further the dialog with no meaningful response.

You made the comment that you can decide something and then it is concrete. Decision made, it's final. Not quite. Ever look at the sexual sin forums here? They are in a state of constantly deciding whether to indulge or not. That's what free will is. It's a constant battle between your primal desires and your intellectual desires.

So IF we get to heaven and we still have free will but no longer choose to sin because we no longer have primal inclinations, then WHY weren't we simply made that way to begin with?

Or IF we get to heaven and we still have free will and choose to sin, what happens?

Or IF we get to heaven and we no longer have free will, what then?

You did not answer these questions in earnest.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Human beings obviously act in a manner contrary to the desire of God, according to Orthodox doctrine; we are, like the devil, restricted by divine providence to what God will allow, in terms of potentiality, but not in terms of what we would do, could we do it. So the devil does act contrary to the preference of God but is still bound according to His will; that is to say, of the various evil acts the devil would, if he could, engage in, only a minority are actually allowed him; we in turn are restricted by virtue of our lifespan, physical limitations, natural disasters, and various other acts of God from engaging in every evil we should want to engage in.

In other words, we, and the devil, have free will. but are nor omnipotent; to the extent we have the freedom to sin, scripture itself attests to this beinf subject to divine control (see the imposition of the human lifespan in Genesis).

We are not omnipotent and yet we have corrupted the Bible. Satan is equally or more powerful than us, and is also more motivated to corrupt the Bible. Explain why he has not been able to do so to date, or, if he has, explain why you can trust the Bible at all.

I never said that. Those were always your words.

Oh really?

Remember that conversation? Or how about this one:

Your time? You are a participant, voluntarily, in a debate; no one forces you to debate on cf.com; we condescend to reply to your posts voluntarily under the special moderatorial regime of this forum. Thus I consider you have no right to accuse us of wasting your time, particularly given the inherently recreational nature of this forum.

OK. So when I go to McDonald's and they take forever to give me my order, I have no grounds to complain that they're wasting my time. After all, I am a voluntary participant at their restaurant.

Apparently you managed to be a Christisn without ever learning much about the core doctrines of the Christian faith, for example, eschatology, hamartiology, and so on. Which is in my experience an actual problem; I spent more than two decades as a Methodist without anyone bothering to explain to me the doctrine of the Trinity and why it mattered.

I probably know what those things are without knowing the words off hand. Regardless, the value of your opinion is quite up in the air because you keep changing it, as I've shown.

 

[Wgw]

We are not omnipotent and yet we have corrupted the Bible. Satan is equally or more powerful than us, and is also more motivated to corrupt the Bible. Explain why he has not been able to do so to date, or, if he has, explain why you can trust the Bible at all.

We have not corrupted the Bible, not in any meaningful way; the very minor manuscript variations lack materiality.

Oh really?

Remember that conversation? Or how about this one:

Yes I do; note that I emphatically did nit say Satan lacked free will; rather that he was limited in his actions according to divine will. There is a difference. We can perform no external action contrary to divine providence; this does not mean we lack free will in terms of desire, but rather that we are merely restrained according to potentiality, so that the external scope of our actions is contoured according to divine providence.

What differentiates God from us, is His omnipotence; He is actus purus; that is to say, in God, there are no external constraints limiting the scope of his actions; there are no unresolved or unresolvable potentialities.

OK. So when I go to McDonald's and they take forever to give me my order, I have no grounds to complain that they're wasting my time. After all, I am a voluntary participant at their restaurant.

On the contrary, you pay them, and are thus entitled to prompt service. On the other hand, you do not pay me; if you wish to compensate me for my time spent in debating you, I will not protest; on the contrary I would be more than happy to tailor what I say to suit your preferences in the manner of a good sophist, provided the pay is sufficient. $800/hr, with a $200,000 retainer, would do nicely.

Of course, if I were inclined to the scrupulosity of Socrates, I would likely refuse your money and then proceed to bore you.

I probably know what those things are without knowing the words off hand.

Perhaps, although this has not been evinced thus far.

Regardless, the value of your opinion is quite up in the air because you keep changing it, as I've shown.

I have been thoroughly consistent with the apostolic faith; it's not my fault you are unable to differentiate between free will and omnipotence.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

We have not corrupted the Bible, not in any meaningful way; the very minor manuscript variations lack materiality.


Yes I do; note that I emphatically did nit say Satan lacked free will; rather that he was limited in his actions according to divine will. There is a difference. We can perform no external action contrary to divine providence; this does not mean we lack free will in terms of desire, but rather that we are merely restrained according to potentiality, so that the external scope of our actions is contoured according to divine providence.

On this thread you denied saying that Satan helps us. You were shown evidence here and did not respond.

I have been thoroughly consistent with the apostolic faith; it's not my fault you are unable to differentiate between free will and omnipotence.

Satan does not require omnipotence to alter the Bible to his liking.

You say that Satan has free will and is bounded by potentiality. Altering the Bible is well within the realm of potentiality. Explain why he has not done so. Explain the plain mechanics that allow us to blunder scripture yet deny him his feast on the word. Explain why Satan has not at the very least been able to alter certain verses which you deem peripheral.

To date you have done nothing to answer these simple questions.

 

[elopez]

You made the comment that you can decide something and then it is concrete. Decision made, it's final.

Wrong. What I said was: Our will, if we reach Heaven, is "cemented" in the love and awe of God, unable to break away. What I said was our decisions on earth are concrete once we reach Heaven; either we love God, and that love is "cemented" and unable to dissipate, or not. That is not to say our earthly decisions are concrete here and now. I thought that you'd pick up on that...

Not quite. Ever look at the sexual sin forums here? They are in a state of constantly deciding whether to indulge or not. That's what free will is. It's a constant battle between your primal desires and your intellectual desires.

So really all this amounts to is a straw man. I am not claiming free will decisions on earth are concrete.

You did not answer these questions in earnest.

You asked three questions in relation to three refutations of your OP. Since I do not asrcibe to any of the refutations you alternatively proposed, as there are presumptions behind them I disagree with, I answered from the refutation I do agree with and could make conversation of. I also figured that was the point of asling questions from three varying options.

I answered the last question. You literally asked the same question just phrased differently. So, not until YOU address my answer can this dialog continue in a meaningful way.

 

[Wgw]

On this thread you denied saying that Satan helps us. You were shown evidence here and did not respond.

I certainly did not. Rather, I denied that I said he lacked free will, which is true. It would be helpful I should think if you were to respond to what I actually say, as opposed to what you think I said. I can't account for the ominous doppelganger of my august personage that appears to exist in your misperception of my posts.

Satan does not require omnipotence to alter the Bible to his liking.

He would require rather more potence than we posess. Whoch he in fact has, albet circumscribed by divine writ.

You say that Satan has free will and is bounded by potentiality. Altering the Bible is well within the realm of potentiality. Explain why he has not done so.

This is contrary to divine will.

Explain the plain mechanics that allow us to blunder scripture yet deny him his feast on the word. Explain why Satan has not at the very least been able to alter certain verses which you deem peripheral.

To date you have done nothing to answer these simple questions.

God will not allow us to be arbitrarily prevented from coming to know Him; only those who reject him a priori, like yourself, encounter stumbling blocks, but these exist not as a result of diabolical meddling of the scriptural text itself, which as something under the custodianship of the Holy Church can be regarded as, if not inviolate, perhaps rather like a hedge that is carefully maintained by the Church and protected from unwarranted additions or subtractions (by Church in this case, I mean the Orthodox Church; certain other denominations have of late a less impressive track record in this regard).

Rather, as St. Hilary of Poitiers said, scripture is not in the reading but the interpretation. Thus, for the pious Orthodox Christian, access to scriptural truth is ensured within the safety of the Church.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

This is contrary to divine will.

Clearly it is not contrary to divine will for peripheral things in the Bible to be corrupted. So explain why it is divine will for Satan to not be able to alter peripheral things. You completely skated by that point.

 

[Wgw]

Clearly it is not contrary to divine will for peripheral things in the Bible to be corrupted. So explain why it is divine will for Satan to not be able to alter peripheral things. You completely skated by that point.

Obviously, God will not allow our ability to perceive Him to be meaningfully altered or degraded by demonic agency.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Wrong. What I said was: Our will, if we reach Heaven, is "cemented" in the love and awe of God, unable to break away. What I said was our decisions on earth are concrete once we reach Heaven; either we love God, and that love is "cemented" and unable to dissipate, or not. That is not to say our earthly decisions are concrete here and now. I thought that you'd pick up on that...

OK. Let me highlight this part:

What I said was our decisions on earth are concrete once we reach Heaven

I said this in the OP:

Refutation #3:

We will not sin in heaven because we will have no free will.

Then why do we have it now?


So clearly you did not even read the OP. At all. Why else would you think that's answering anything? You continue to say that we have a vale of decision making on this earth and that our decisions are then concrete in heaven. I kept explaining that you are not answering the question. Do you get it now?

So really all this amounts to is a straw man. I am not claiming free will decisions on earth are concrete.

Nonsensical statement. You are responding to my argument in which I am already claiming that decisions on earth are not concrete. So we are both saying the same thing, and you say I'm making a straw man of your argument. In fact, my point is that decisions NEVER ARE concrete. That is the entire point of the OP. Recall I said this:

Lucifer was exiled from heaven due to certain choices he made with regard to his free will.

Once we are in heaven, we will have the free-will ability to make the same choice he once did.

Given infinite time and a nonzero probability of event X occurring, event X has a 100% chance of occurring.

That is the ENTIRE BULK of my argument, and you are clearly showing you have not invested the necessary time to understand what I am even saying.

You asked three questions in relation to three refutations of your OP. Since I do not asrcibe to any of the refutations you alternatively proposed, as there are presumptions behind them I disagree with, I answered from the refutation I do agree with and could make conversation of. I also figured that was the point of asling questions from three varying options.

Clearly you agree with refutation #3 here. Here's what you said, verbatim:

Our will, if we reach Heaven, is "cemented" in the love and awe of God, unable to break away.

Here is what I said, verbatim:

Refutation #3:

We will not sin in heaven because we will have no free will.

I answered the last question. You literally asked the same question just phrased differently. So, not until YOU address my answer can this dialog continue in a meaningful way.

OK. So you answered the last question. As in question #3? So I asked,

"Then why do we have [free will] now?"

Your response was,

"To make the choices that are relevant to Heaven. This world is a vale of decision-making during which we decide whether we want to live with God forever or reject Him. Our will, if we reach Heaven, is "cemented" in the love and awe of God, unable to break away."

So let's break this down. I asked WHY we have free will now if we won't have it then, and your answer is so that we can choose to accept God or not? I'm asking WHY this game is even being played in the first place. Why not just have our situation "cemented" to begin with? What is the actual point of our lives on earth?

So, yes, I asked why we have free will, and your answer was basically along the lines of, "We have free will so we can use it." WHY???

Literally, that is what you said. Let me in fact show you:

Lastly, the proof that you are the cause of the confusion:

You seem to be saying to yourself that you need to be more clear.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Obviously, God will not allow our ability to perceive Him to be meaningfully altered or degraded by demonic agency.

Last chance or you're going on ignore list.

I'm asking about PERIPHERAL things now. You know, the blunders we humans made? Like with the ages of kings and etc. Can Satan or can Satan not match this feat of humanity? CAN he or CAN he NOT corrupt certain things in the Bible like ages of kings? IF NOT, WHY? You yourself say that these things have nothing to do with salvation, so your answers above are irrelevant to the question I've been asking a million times.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Last chance or you're going on ignore list.

I'm asking about PERIPHERAL things now. You know, the blunders we humans made? Like with the ages of kings and etc. Can Satan or can Satan not match this feat of humanity? CAN he or CAN he NOT corrupt certain things in the Bible like ages of kings? IF NOT, WHY? You yourself say that these things have nothing to do with salvation, so your answers above are irrelevant to the question I've been asking a million times.

I wonder how big Nihilist's ignore list is now.

 

[elopez]

So clearly you did not even read the OP. At all. Why else would you think that's answering anything? You continue to say that we have a vale of decision making on this earth and that our decisions are then concrete in heaven. I kept explaining that you are not answering the question. Do you get it now?

Like I said, you snipped out the part in bold, and secluded it from the rest of what I said, which was:

To make the choices that are relevant to Heaven. This world is a vale of decision-making during which we decide whether we want to live with God forever or reject Him.

How is that not answering the question when you asked:

"Then why do we have [free will] now?"

I honestly cannot understand how you do not grasp that as answer...how do YOU not get it?

Nonsensical statement. You are responding to my argument in which I am already claiming that decisions on earth are not concrete. So we are both saying the same thing, and you say I'm making a straw man of your argument. In fact, my point is that decisions NEVER ARE concrete. That is the entire point of the OP. Recall I said this:

It is not nonsensical. You said I said something I did not:

You made the comment that you can decide something and then it is concrete. Decision made, it's final.

I did not say that. You then went to explain why that would be false, and while that is great and all, is not relevant as I already agree with that and again is not a response to a claim I made.

That is the ENTIRE BULK of my argument, and you are clearly showing you have not invested the necessary time to understand what I am even saying.

Wow come on man. I am not going to hold your hand this entire discussion. This premise,

Once we are in heaven, we will have the free-will ability to make the same choice he once did.

is false. Hence, why I am answering from refutation point 3...

Clearly you agree with refutation #3 here. Here's what you said, verbatim:

Ugh, yeah. I really hope you are not just now getting that.

OK. So you answered the last question. As in question #3

Yes....really where have you been this entire time?

So I asked,

"Then why do we have [free will] now?"

Your response was,

"To make the choices that are relevant to Heaven. This world is a vale of decision-making during which we decide whether we want to live with God forever or reject Him. Our will, if we reach Heaven, is "cemented" in the love and awe of God, unable to break away."

Right...

So let's break this down. I asked WHY we have free will now if we won't have it then, and your answer is so that we can choose to accept God or not? I

Right...

I'm asking WHY this game is even being played in the first place. Why not just have our situation "cemented" to begin with? What is the actual point of our lives on earth?

This is the same exact question as earlier, "WHY we have free will now if we won't have it then?" The point of our lives on earth is to decide if we want to be with God or not. Same question, phrased differently.

So, yes, I asked why we have free will, and your answer was basically along the lines of, "We have free will so we can use it." WHY???

Yes but you already asked that in the OP, to which I responded to. You need to come up with a more reasonable question-answer dialog than this.

Literally, that is what you said. Let me in fact show you:

Yes! That is my answer as to why we have free will...how are you not getting this?

Lastly, the proof that you are the cause of the confusion:

You seem to be saying to yourself that you need to be more clear.

I am not sure if you are intentionally actimg incompetent or what...I was saying YOU need to be more clear. I was asking you a question, if you would have noticed the question marks. There was indeed two of them.

All you're doing is dodging my answer, making excuses as to why you won't respond. Anyone can see that.

 

[Hammster]

Once again:

Mod Hat On​

The SoP for this forum has been updated with the following guideline:

• Only Christian members (see our faith groups list) may defend the Christian faith against arguments and opposing viewpoints from non-Christian members.

Mod Hat Off​

 

[Sojourner1]

This forum is for Christians to defend their faith against arguments and challenges presented by non-Christians. You can't debate your point of view regarding a Christian belief based on your point of view as a Mormon. Sorry, that is just the way this forum is set up. Please review the purpose of this forum:

Christian Apologetics is a branch of theology that concerns itself with the rational defense of the Christian faith against arguments and opposing viewpoints. The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs​

 

[Alla27]

My argument: in heaven when we become like God we will have agency but we will not want to sin. Only those who are NOT like God and who have mortal bodies sin.
I am ready for any Christian to defend their Christian faith against this argument.

 

[Sojourner1]

My argument: in heaven when we become like God we will have agency but we will not want to sin. Only those who are NOT like God and who have mortal bodies sin.
I am ready for any Christian to defend their Christian faith against this argument.

Please start a new thread to present your argument so that Christians may respond.

 

[Alla27]

I deleted this post