Free will, heaven, and probability

[Nihilist Virus]

Lucifer was exiled from heaven due to certain choices he made with regard to his free will.

Once we are in heaven, we will have the free-will ability to make the same choice he once did.

Given infinite time and a nonzero probability of event X occurring, event X has a 100% chance of occurring.

Therefore, when we get to heaven, we will make the same choice that doomed Lucifer.

Refutation #1:

While we will have free will, we will have no desire to do this or commit any other sin once we're in heaven.

Then why weren't we made that way to begin with? What is the point of our existence on earth?

Refutation #2:

We will commit this sin and all other sins, but we are cleansed with Christ's blood whereas the angels were not.

This system is quite unfair and the other angels seem to be doomed to hell as an inescapable eventuality just the same as Lucifer. Also I am under the impression that God cannot be in the presence of sin (hence the forsaking of Christ on the cross), so this refutation makes little to no sense.

Refutation #3:

We will not sin in heaven because we will have no free will.

Then why do we have it now?



So let me know if I'm missing something.

 

[Alla27]

Refutation #1:
While we will have free will, we will have no desire to do this or commit any other sin once we're in heaven.
Then why weren't we made that way to begin with? What is the point of our existence on earth?
So let me know if I'm missing something.

The point is this: eternal life is something we have to choose by ourselves. It can not be forced on us.

 

[Alla27]

This life is the time to choose eternal life. This earth is the place to choose eternal life. It has to be place where there is good and evil.

 

[Alla27]

Therefore, when we get to heaven, we will make the same choice that doomed Lucifer.

No, we won't.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The point is this: eternal life is something we have to choose by ourselves. It can not be forced on us.

This life is the time to choose eternal life. This earth is the place to choose eternal life. It has to be place where there is good and evil.

Not relevant.

 

[Alla27]

Not relevant.

why not?
you asked: While we will have free will, we will have no desire to do this or commit any other sin once we're in heaven.
Then why weren't we made that way to begin with? What is the point of our existence on earth?

I answered: We have to choose to become this kind of beings(Gods are this kind of beings). We can not be forced to be like Gods. That is why we are not made this way from the beginning.
This is the point of this existence.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

why not?
you asked: While we will have free will, we will have no desire to do this or commit any other sin once we're in heaven.
Then why weren't we made that way to begin with? What is the point of our existence on earth?

I answered: We have to choose to become this kind of beings(Gods are this kind of beings). We can not be forced to be like Gods. That is why we are not made this way from the beginning.
This is the point of this existence.

So if we have the choice to become this kind of being, then how can you say we will never make this choice given infinite time?

 

[Alla27]

So if we have the choice to become this kind of being, then how can you say we will never make this choice given infinite time?

Now it is time to choose to be this kind of beings. Once we become them we will never have a desire to do evil. Perfect being is not called perfect for nothing.

 

[Wgw]

Lucifer was exiled from heaven due to certain choices he made with regard to his free will.

Once we are in heaven, we will have the free-will ability to make the same choice he once did.

Given infinite time and a nonzero probability of event X occurring, event X has a 100% chance of occurring.

Therefore, when we get to heaven, we will make the same choice that doomed Lucifer.

Refutation #1:

While we will have free will, we will have no desire to do this or commit any other sin once we're in heaven.

Then why weren't we made that way to begin with? What is the point of our existence on earth?

Refutation #2:

We will commit this sin and all other sins, but we are cleansed with Christ's blood whereas the angels were not.

This system is quite unfair and the other angels seem to be doomed to hell as an inescapable eventuality just the same as Lucifer. Also I am under the impression that God cannot be in the presence of sin (hence the forsaking of Christ on the cross), so this refutation makes little to no sense.

Refutation #3:

We will not sin in heaven because we will have no free will.

Then why do we have it now?

So let me know if I'm missing something.

Your primary error is the assumption that the World to Come has a discrete temporal dimension, as opposed to being atemporal. However, let us say that it is temporally defined, that time continues more or less ad infinitum, if not to say, ad nauseum. In this case we must trust that God will be prepared to forgive the inevitable indiscretions we might commit assuming the capability to sin still exists.

 

[elopez]

Refutation #3:

We will not sin in heaven because we will have no free will.

Then why do we have it now?

To make the choices that are relevant to Heaven. This world is a vale of decision-making during which we decide whether we want to live with God forever or reject Him. Our will, if we reach Heaven, is "cemented" in the love and awe of God, unable to break away.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Now it is time to choose to be this kind of beings. Once we become them we will never have a desire to do evil. Perfect being is not called perfect for nothing.

OK so be perfect then. Good luck. Not sure what you need Jesus for.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Your primary error is the assumption that the World to Come has a discrete temporal dimension, as opposed to being atemporal.

Events can occur in an atemporal world? Then why are you Christian? Clearly the prime mover argument carries zero weight with you. Everything else put forward requires faith plus assembly, batteries not included. Why bother?

However, let us say that it is temporally defined, that time continues more or less ad infinitum, if not to say, ad nauseum. In this case we must trust that God will be prepared to forgive the inevitable indiscretions we might commit assuming the capability to sin still exists.

Do you think Lucifer trusted God to forgive his inevitable transgressions?

Oh wait, you think Satan is helping us, so maybe you do think this.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Our will, if we reach Heaven, is "cemented" in the love and awe of God, unable to break away.

Then why is that option not available to us here and now? Why the game?

 

[Alla27]

OK so be perfect then. Good luck. Not sure what you need Jesus for.

I can not become perfect without Him. If Jesus didn't atone for my sins and for sins of others NOBODY could be perfect.
God's plan of salvation would fail.

 

[Alla27]

Do you think Lucifer trusted God to forgive his inevitable transgressions?

When someone has PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of God and then rebels against God and this knowledge(THE TRUTH) he or she can NOT be forgiven. It calls unpardonable sin or sin against the Holy Ghost. That is why Lucifer became Satan.

 

[Alla27]

Then why is that option not available to us here and now? Why the game?

Because first we have to choose to be cemented in the love of God. We can not be forced in being cemented in love of God.
In this life in this fallen world we make this choice - to be like God or not to be like God?

 

[Wgw]

Events can occur in an atemporal world? Then why are you Christian? Clearly the prime mover argument carries zero weight with you. Everything else put forward requires faith plus assembly, batteries not included. Why bother?

I consider it quite possible that there will be no discrete events in the World to Come, and this is actually a blissful prospect in some respects. Imagine, instead of death, blissful quiessence. However, that is one possible condition; to a very large extent faith of this sort requires us to trust in God's bountiful providence regarding such matters.

Do you think Lucifer trusted God to forgive his inevitable transgressions?

Obviously not; not trusting God is functionally integral to the kaikodaimonical nature.

Oh wait, you think Satan is helping us, so maybe you do think this.

Helpimg us against his will, in that God only allows the devil to tempt us in a manner that tests and purifies our faith.

 

[bling]

Lucifer was exiled from heaven due to certain choices he made with regard to his free will.

Once we are in heaven, we will have the free-will ability to make the same choice he once did.

Given infinite time and a nonzero probability of event X occurring, event X has a 100% chance of occurring.

Therefore, when we get to heaven, we will make the same choice that doomed Lucifer.

We will still have free will in heaven, but for a multitude of reasons will not sin, some of them being:

Unlike the angels/Lucifer (who also had and have free will) we will enter with full experience with sin. We will have already experienced satan’s powers, so know not to let him influence us.

Satan is not around anymore so only angels that made the free will choice to continue to humble accept God’s Love are there.

There is no tree of some extra knowledge there, since we now have all knowledge freely available.

We are no longer sexual beings (sexual beings compete for good reason), so we are prone to covet.

We will have spiritual eyes to not only feel the presence of the Holy Spirit, but literally see Him, with us always.

The big think is we have it all so there is no wanting, since our most generous Father has given us everything we truly unselfishly want.

Refutation #1:

While we will have free will, we will have no desire to do this or commit any other sin once we're in heaven.

Then why weren't we made that way to begin with? What is the point of our existence on earth?

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.


So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is.


What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?


There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)


This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).


An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision.


This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.


Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.


All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened. Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).


You really need to read the Gospels because this “Love” is defined by all Christ did and said.


This is just an introduction on the objective of man Love.

Refutation #2:

We will commit this sin and all other sins, but we are cleansed with Christ's blood whereas the angels were not.

This system is quite unfair and the other angels seem to be doomed to hell as an inescapable eventuality just the same as Lucifer. Also I am under the impression that God cannot be in the presence of sin (hence the forsaking of Christ on the cross), so this refutation makes little to no sense.

Atonement is really a huge subject and your conclusion would need a lot of work, I can assure you God is totally fair.

It all goes back to the objective of “Love” even for the fallen angels and that “Love” needing to be the result of a free will choice.

Refutation #3:

We will not sin in heaven because we will have no free will.

Then why do we have it now?

So let me know if I'm missing something.

We do have it in heaven also, without free will you cannot Love like God Loves.

 

[elopez]

Then why is that option not available to us here and now? Why the game?

As I already answered: Thisworld is a vale of decision-making during which we decide whether we want to live with God after death or not.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

When someone has PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of God and then rebels against God and this knowledge(THE TRUTH) he or she can NOT be forgiven. It calls unpardonable sin or sin against the Holy Ghost. That is why Lucifer became Satan.

And either you will do exactly that in heaven, or else you will not do so because you won't have free will. Which is it and why?