Paul's limited understanding!

[Righttruth]

The Acts of Thomas are known second century apocrypha associated with the Tatianists / Syriac Gnostics. Similiarly, the other books you cite are known to date from the second or third century. Thus, they hardly count as first-hand narratives.

So also Paul who was a rank outsider with speculations and self-assumptions!

 

[Righttruth]

"The Bible." Not, for example, the Acts of Thomas.

Scholarly writings of Paul miss out the sublime spiritual teaching of Jesus!

 

[Righttruth]

"The Bible." Not, for example, the Acts of Thomas.

The Bible itself tells about the self-claims of Paul!

 

[Righttruth]

I rather doubt you have much knowledge of St. Paul given that thus far your criticsm seems to be primarily of Sola Fide, which as much as Martin Luther may have wished otherwise, was not actually authentic Pauline doctrine.

Jesus did not come to establish a doctrine, Paul did with his scholarly speculations!

 

[Righttruth]

One man's book/life is no match for the providence of God to approve or disapprove Paul's writings throughout the greater history of His word and His purpose. History attests to God's approval, which makes it indisputable by you or the author of such a book. Your reference to another source other than the time-tested approval of God over the providence of history regarding His word, is the very thing Jesus warned about.

I say again: You cannot dispute what God has already approved.

God has never set a seal of acceptance to any canon of any sect or group. History could be a bunk!

 

[Righttruth]

I don't want to know what some book says about this, I want to know why you say it.
Forget other people's ideas, why do YOU say the things you say about Paul?
Why do you say that he deviates from the words of Jesus when I have shown you that he preached the cross and resurrection, and Jesus did too?
When you meet with God after you die, you may have to answer such questions for yourself; answer for your beliefs, not someone else's.

Jesus never confined to teaching of cross and resurrection all the time. His three and a half years of ministry was not required for such a abridged concept. Please remember there are three aspects of His message: life, way and truth.

 

[Righttruth]

And yet you have said that you don't completely disregard Paul's teachings; that you filter them, and have the Holy Spirit to tell you which ones to believe.So, he was a manipulator with an agenda, a self proclaimed apostle, someone who has deviated from Jesus' words and a hoodwinker - yet you are prepared to accept some of what he says? The Spirit of truth, apparently, leads you to accept and receive SOME of the words of this hoodwinker and deceiver?

No one was completely holy or one hundred percent discard. The Holy Spirit was sent to remind us of Lord's teaching. Only those who uphold the teaching of Jesus are prompted by the Holy Spirit, otherwise, it is person's wisdom as pointed out by Peter. In fact, Paul admits some of his advice are not from the Lord.

How, then, is he the Spirit of truth who leads us into ALL truth? And how is it that your words are prompted by this Spirit,

We will never know the complete truth as admitted even by Paul. So we need to rely on the Holy Spirit as we strive towards perfection.

whereas when Paul says that he was speaking by, sent by and empowered by the Spirit, you ignore him and accuse him of deceiving people?

That is what I am saying: all his self-assumptions backed by assertions as a scholar!

 

[Crystal C]

How do you know of His forewarning? From what source did you obtain this information?

I already stated as much. Matthew 24.

 

[Strong in Him]

Jesus never confined to teaching of cross and resurrection all the time. His three and a half years of ministry was not required for such a abridged concept. Please remember there are three aspects of His message: life, way and truth.

Jesus is the Way, the truth and the life.
Jesus taught, and demonstrated, many things about God - like the fact that he loves us, cares about all the small details of our lives and wants a relationship with us. But the only way that can happen; the only way we can receive forgiveness, eternal life and be reconciled to God, is through the death of Jesus. This is why Jesus came - the angel told Joseph that he would save people from their sins, John the Baptist said that he is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, Jesus said that he is the Good Shepherd who lays down his life for his sheep and that his blood was of the New Covenant and for the forgiveness of sins.
Jesus is the only Way to the Father because we can't be reconciled to God unless we accept that his Son laid down his life for us, (John 14:6, Acts 4:12). Jesus is the truth, he speaks the truth and he gives us the Spirit of truth, and he came to give us life, in all its fullness, (John 10:10), and eternal life, (John 3:16; John 3:36; John 6:53).

Paul teaches this and about Jesus and the cross.
Once someone has accepted Jesus, confessed him as Saviour and Lord and received the Holy Spirit, they are born again and children of God. THEN is the time that they need to know how to live the Christian life. The cross comes first; anyone trying to just live a good life and be nice people without the cross is saying that they believe that good deeds save, and are trying to save themselves in their own strength - and they won't be able to. Paul's ministry, and mission, was to preach Jesus so that people could find salvation, be reconciled to God and be children of God. His calling was not to preach the sermon on the Mount, that had already been done, and the disciples who were there at the time could have verified it and told anyone what they wanted to know. But following the sermon on the Mount, believing it, even memorising it is of no use if a person rejects Jesus, who he was (the Messiah) and what he came to do, (offer his life as a sacrifice for sin.)

If Jesus had started his earthly ministry and said "I have come to die", people would not have been able to accept it, would not have known anything about the God who loved them, thought that Jesus was mad, and not seen the point of his life . Jesus taught God's love for people, and demonstrated it by healing them. He told us to forgive our enemies, and demonstrated that on the cross, and commanded us to love as he loved us - i.e laid down his life for sinners and people who didn't deserve love, mercy and grace.

 

[Strong in Him]

The Holy Spirit was sent to remind us of Lord's teaching.

No, the Holy Spirit was sent to remind the disciples of the Lord's teaching so that they could write it down. John 16:12-15, he is speaking to his disciples.
Of course the Spirit can bring to our mind verses/passages of Scripture that we have previously read/memorised; he often does that for me. But we need to have read them first! If someone REminds you of something they are prompting you to recall something you already knew. And the only way that WE can know Jesus' teaching is to read it in the Gospels.

Only those who uphold the teaching of Jesus are prompted by the Holy Spirit,

Not quite, because Jesus told us to treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves, forgive others and love our neighbour, among other things - even people who don't believe in God and are humanists can do that. I know of lots of people who have founded charities, raised money for others, looked after them and so on; that doesn't mean they are Christians.
Jesus said - taught - that only those who have been born again can enter the kingdom of God. Jesus said - taught - that he had come to give his life as a ransom for many, and to seek and save the lost. These are the teachings that we need to accept. If we do, and accept and receive the Holy Spirit, then we are born again, will be children of God and will acknowledge Jesus as LORD of our lives - i.e someone who is in control, in the driving seat and has the right to tell us how he wants us to live. Only those who have received the Holy Spirit can truly declare that Jesus is Lord, and mean it.

In fact, Paul admits some of his advice are not from the Lord.

Yes, because Christians in the churches he founded asked him questions, had problems and he wrote them pastoral letters to answer those and help them. Sometimes he gave a word from the Lord and sometimes he gave his own advice/opinion. Same with everyone; sometimes on these forums people quote Scripture, or share something that God has told them personally, sometimes they give their own advice.

We will never know the complete truth as admitted even by Paul. So we need to rely on the Holy Spirit as we strive towards perfection.

No, we need to receive and be filled with the Holy Spirit and then allow HIM to transform us into Jesus' image and likeness. Jesus is the only perfect person who has ever lived, or whoever will live. We cannot be perfect in this life - if we have received Jesus and are in him, then God sees us as perfect, but we won't be made perfect, whole and complete until we die and leave this life. Anyone who is trying to become perfect in their own strength will fail, and anyone who is trying to bypass the cross, won't be saved.

That is what I am saying: all his self-assumptions backed by assertions as a scholar!

Your whole argument appears to be based on an assumption; namely, "there is no record of another apostle referring to Paul as one, therefore he wasn't and made that claim himself, therefore he is lying, manipulative and can't be trusted." That is not a quote of yours, just a summary of what you seem to be saying. Your starting point is that you don't like, or entirely trust, Paul - although some of his writings are ok.

Tell me, what do you believe about the Holy Spirit? Is he the Spirit of truth? If so, why has he allowed these letters of Paul to be in Scripture? Why is it that you are so sure he can prompt and guide you, and us, but not accept that he guided, filled and empowered Paul? How, in fact, can he be the Spirit of truth if some of Paul's writings are false, or wrong, and he has to point out to us which of his writings cannot be accepted and shouldn't be in the Bible - which he inspired?

And is you believe the canon of Scripture is man made, that all the apostles - the 12 and Paul - were arrogant, that we can only accept some of Paul's writings and have to ask the Spirit to show us which ones, then how can you be sure of anything? That's not an accusation; I'm curious. How do you know what God is like and whether you can trust him, if you are not sure about his word, (written word, Jesus is THE word) which has been given to us by God to show us his love and what he is like? And if you're not sure what he is like, how do you know that he is your rock, your Saviour and loves you very much?
Or don't you know that? Because it's true, and God wants you to know, and be sure of, it.

 

[Wgw]

I already stated as much. Matthew 24.

A gospel which scholars believe postdates (in its present form) the Pauline epistles, and which you only have access to because the Nicene churches, which never doubted the authenticity of St. Paul, included it in the canon and made sure manuscripts of it were preserved throughout the darkest of the dark ages.

Thus, you are using Pauline-influenced scripture preserved by a Pauline church to attempt to claim St. Paul was a false prophet. Also, Matthew 24 says nothing about St. Paul.

 

[Righttruth]

No, the Holy Spirit was sent to remind the disciples of the Lord's teaching so that they could write it down. John 16:12-15, he is speaking to his disciples.

This is a typical opinion of many that many things Jesus said were only applicable to His disciples. They say the Sermon on the Mount is one such case! Paul might have thought the same thing to claim special tutorial to him by Jesus! The Holy Spirit was not sent down temporarily for apostles to write down. You are missing very important words here:

John 16:14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Jesus did not say, proclaim My death to glorify and do that in 'remembrance' of Him as imagined by Paul!

Of course the Spirit can bring to our mind verses/passages of Scripture that we have previously read/memorised; he often does that for me. But we need to have read them first! If someone REminds you of something they are prompting you to recall something you already knew. And the only way that WE can know Jesus' teaching is to read it in the Gospels.

Unfortunately, many try to find the Gospel in Pauline epistles!

Not quite, because Jesus told us to treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves, forgive others and love our neighbour, among other things - even people who don't believe in God and are humanists can do that. I know of lots of people who have founded charities, raised money for others, looked after them and so on; that doesn't mean they are Christians.
Jesus said - taught - that only those who have been born again can enter the kingdom of God. Jesus said - taught - that he had come to give his life as a ransom for many, and to seek and save the lost. These are the teachings that we need to accept. If we do, and accept and receive the Holy Spirit, then we are born again, will be children of God and will acknowledge Jesus as LORD of our lives - i.e someone who is in control, in the driving seat and has the right to tell us how he wants us to live. Only those who have received the Holy Spirit can truly declare that Jesus is Lord, and mean it.

True Christians are involved in such charitable activities. The Holy Spirit will be given to those who are obedient to Jesus, not available for just asking or believing some verses or speaking gibberish! Born from above (not exactly born again) is the gift from above. Only fruit of the Spirit is the sign of the Holy Spirit residing in a person.

Yes, because Christians in the churches he founded asked him questions, had problems and he wrote them pastoral letters to answer those and help them. Sometimes he gave a word from the Lord and sometimes he gave his own advice/opinion. Same with everyone; sometimes on these forums people quote Scripture, or share something that God has told them personally, sometimes they give their own advice.

Claiming such thing as God's words is wrong!

No, we need to receive and be filled with the Holy Spirit and then allow HIM to transform us into Jesus' image and likeness. Jesus is the only perfect person who has ever lived, or whoever will live. We cannot be perfect in this life - if we have received Jesus and are in him, then God sees us as perfect, but we won't be made perfect, whole and complete until we die and leave this life. Anyone who is trying to become perfect in their own strength will fail, and anyone who is trying to bypass the cross, won't be saved.

God never sees us as perfect. Jesus is our advocate for asking God to forgive us. We need to strive towards perfection, not that we are going to get a label of perfection by quoting some verses!

Matthew 5
48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

1 Peter 1
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;

Your whole argument appears to be based on an assumption; namely, "there is no record of another apostle referring to Paul as one, therefore he wasn't and made that claim himself, therefore he is lying, manipulative and can't be trusted." That is not a quote of yours, just a summary of what you seem to be saying. Your starting point is that you don't like, or entirely trust, Paul - although some of his writings are ok.

His claim of apostleship shows he never knew the significance of Jesus' calling of 12. He wanted that to push his propaganda.

Tell me, what do you believe about the Holy Spirit? Is he the Spirit of truth? If so, why has he allowed these letters of Paul to be in Scripture? Why is it that you are so sure he can prompt and guide you, and us, but not accept that he guided, filled and empowered Paul? How, in fact, can he be the Spirit of truth if some of Paul's writings are false, or wrong, and he has to point out to us which of his writings cannot be accepted and shouldn't be in the Bible - which he inspired?

As I have been saying canon is man-made; that is why we have different canons for different groups!

And is you believe the canon of Scripture is man made, that all the apostles - the 12 and Paul - were arrogant,

No, no! Only Paul was arrogant, a typical trait of a Pharisee!

that we can only accept some of Paul's writings and have to ask the Spirit to show us which ones, then how can you be sure of anything? That's not an accusation; I'm curious. How do you know what God is like and whether you can trust him, if you are not sure about his word, (written word, Jesus is THE word)

I will put it this way: Jesus was the Word. The Holy Spirit helps in recognizing the teaching of Jesus in all kinds of writings.

which has been given to us by God to show us his love and what he is like? And if you're not sure what he is like, how do you know that he is your rock, your Saviour and loves you very much?
Or don't you know that? Because it's true, and God wants you to know, and be sure of, it.

God loves us so that we don't perish eventually. We need to transform our lives to get that accomplished.

 

[St_Worm2]

A gospel which scholars believe postdates (in its present form) the Pauline epistles, and which you only have access to because the Nicene churches, which never doubted the authenticity of St. Paul, included it in the canon and made sure manuscripts of it were preserved throughout the darkest of the dark ages.

Thus, you are using Pauline-influenced scripture preserved by a Pauline church to attempt to claim St. Paul was a false prophet. Also, Matthew 24 says nothing about St. Paul.

This ^

The Lord said to Ananias, "go for he [Paul] is a chosen
instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the
Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel”
Acts 9:15​

 

[Strong in Him]

This is a typical opinion of many that many things Jesus said were only applicable to His disciples. They say the Sermon on the Mount is one such case! Paul might have thought the same thing to claim special tutorial to him by Jesus! The Holy Spirit was not sent down temporarily for apostles to write down. You are missing very important words here:

John 16:14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

And you're not seeing what I'm saying.
Jesus is talking to his disciples in this passage. He has just said that they will be turned out of the synagogues, persecuted, and that anyone who kills them will think he is serving God. He says, "I am going to the Father, and none of YOU ask me where I am going ....... I have said these things and YOU are filled with grief." "I have much to say to YOU more than YOU can bear but the Spirit will guide YOU into all truth.... (etc). Look at the verses that you quoted; "he will glorify me because he will take of mine and disclose it to YOU."
Yes, we are Jesus' disciples too, yes the Holy Spirit is for us and yes of course the sermon on the Mount, John 15 and other passages are for us too. But WE don't see Jesus now; WE aren't filled with grief that he is going away.
The Spirit reminded the disciples of Jesus' words so that they could write them down; the result is, the Gospels. Or are you saying that the Holy Spirit can remind us of words which Jesus said and which no one else knows about?

Jesus did not say, proclaim My death to glorify and do that in 'remembrance' of Him as imagined by Paul!

The Gospel writers don't record it; that doesn't mean that Jesus didn't say it. You are making the assumption, and judgement, that Paul imagined it because you don't like Paul, don't accept that he was called by Jesus and can't accept that Jesus may have taught him and that the Spirit did, in fact reveal to him what Jesus had said.
Paul's account of the Lord's supper was written before the Gospels.

True Christians are involved in such charitable activities. The Holy Spirit will be given to those who are obedient to Jesus, not available for just asking or believing some verses or speaking gibberish!

God never sees us as perfect. Jesus is our advocate for asking God to forgive us. We need to strive towards perfection, not that we are going to get a label of perfection by quoting some verses!

Well if you regard being a Christian, living our Christian life and receiving the Holy Spirit as something which is the result of OUR efforts, OUR striving, and don't believe Jesus' words that God will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him, Luke 11:13, but only after WE can show that WE obey - then there is nothing I can say to persuade you otherwise.

His claim of apostleship shows he never knew the significance of Jesus' calling of 12. He wanted that to push his propaganda.

No, that's your opinion and judgement.
Yes, Jesus called 12 disciples and yes they wanted someone else to replace Judas. I'm guessing you are saying that 12 disciples were chosen to build the new church to reflect the 12 sons of Joseph who were heads of the tribes in Israel? Yes, that's probably correct - for the Jews. Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles primarily, although he preached to Jews as well. Greeks, and other non Jews, did not belong to Jewish tribes. And God founded his church with 12 apostles, that doesn't mean he is not at liberty to add more. Sorry, but you don't seem to want to even consider that Paul's title of apostle may have been given to him by God, and was certainly not challenged, or taken from him, by the 12 - because this would upset your whole argument. Far better to believe that Paul was arrogant, because that suits your argument.

As I have been saying canon is man-made; that is why we have different canons for different groups!

Yes, YOU have been saying that the canon is man made, WE have been saying that it was inspired by, and made under the authority of, the Holy Spirit.

No, no! Only Paul was arrogant, a typical trait of a Pharisee!.

Even if he was arrogant, does that mean that a) everything he said and wrote was wrong and b) that he couldn't have changed; been forgiven and made new by the Holy Spirit?
You are wrong about some of the things that you say in this thread - that doesn't mean that you can never be right about anything, or that we can never trust anything you write!

I will put it this way: Jesus was the Word. The Holy Spirit helps in recognizing the teaching of Jesus in all kinds of writings.

Yes, YOU put it that way, and may believe it. But whether you like it or not, the writings of Paul are in the Bible - Holy Scripture, the word of God. The early church, under the Holy Spirit, accepted Paul as being an apostle, his writings as the work of an apostle and which were true to the teachings of Jesus and the 12, and included them in the canon of Scripture, which is now closed and cannot have anything added to or taken from it. Whereas books like the "Gospel of Thomas" were not regarded as authentic, and not included.
This is why this thread is in "controversial theology". The view that Paul was wrong, not an apostle and cannot be trusted is not the view of the church - mainstream Christianity.
The Holy Spirit can speak to us through other kinds of writing, and does, but will not contradict the Bible.

God loves us so that we don't perish eventually. We need to transform our lives to get that accomplished.

So the cross isn't enough? God loves us but we have to work to save ourselves?
That's not what the NT says, but it's probably no good quoting the verses which say that, because some of them were written by Paul, and it seems that you will only accept some of his teaching.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm guessing you are saying that 12 disciples were chosen to build the new church to reflect the 12 sons of Joseph

Jacob, sorry. Was on my way to a family reunion; didn't proofread.

 

[Righttruth]

Jesus is the Way, the truth and the life.
Jesus taught, and demonstrated, many things about God - like the fact that he loves us, cares about all the small details of our lives and wants a relationship with us. But the only way that can happen; the only way we can receive forgiveness, eternal life and be reconciled to God, is through the death of Jesus. This is why Jesus came - the angel told Joseph that he would save people from their sins, John the Baptist said that he is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, Jesus said that he is the Good Shepherd who lays down his life for his sheep and that his blood was of the New Covenant and for the forgiveness of sins.
Jesus is the only Way to the Father because we can't be reconciled to God unless we accept that his Son laid down his life for us, (John 14:6, Acts 4:12). Jesus is the truth, he speaks the truth and he gives us the Spirit of truth, and he came to give us life, in all its fullness, (John 10:10), and eternal life, (John 3:16; John 3:36; John 6:53).

Mere acceptance of Jesus is not the end of a believer. He should strive to walk in His way, practice His life and learn more about Him, the truth!

Paul teaches this and about Jesus and the cross.
Once someone has accepted Jesus, confessed him as Saviour and Lord and received the Holy Spirit, they are born again and children of God. THEN is the time that they need to know how to live the Christian life. The cross comes first; anyone trying to just live a good life and be nice people without the cross is saying that they believe that good deeds save, and are trying to save themselves in their own strength - and they won't be able to. Paul's ministry, and mission, was to preach Jesus so that people could find salvation, be reconciled to God and be children of God.

One will not automatically become born again (to be more precise in translation, born from above). Only Jesus can administer the Holy Spirit baptism for the obedient. The emphasis should be on faith followed by practice. Just one will not suffice.

His calling was not to preach the sermon on the Mount, that had already been done, and the disciples who were there at the time could have verified it and told anyone what they wanted to know. But following the sermon on the Mount, believing it, even memorising it is of no use if a person rejects Jesus, who he was (the Messiah) and what he came to do, (offer his life as a sacrifice for sin.)

Only those who accept Jesus will have the strength to practice the Sermon on the Mount. On the other hand, anyone can accept Jesus nominally without caring for righteousness life!

If Jesus had started his earthly ministry and said "I have come to die", people would not have been able to accept it, would not have known anything about the God who loved them, thought that Jesus was mad, and not seen the point of his life . Jesus taught God's love for people, and demonstrated it by healing them. He told us to forgive our enemies, and demonstrated that on the cross, and commanded us to love as he loved us - i.e laid down his life for sinners and people who didn't deserve love, mercy and grace.

Jesus pointed out the greatest two commandments. Now people have come with a concoction for love: mixing up godly love with carnal and friendly love!

 

[Righttruth]

And you're not seeing what I'm saying.
Jesus is talking to his disciples in this passage.

He was talking to His disciples, people and others too. He would also clarify the parables He had told to people exclusively to His chosen apostles. Finally in the Great Commission, He told them three things: reaching out, baptizing and teaching His words. Now basically, the first two are done by many to build up their statistical records, but forgetting to teach His words. They bring in cozy, compromise and convenient concepts of Paul for 'ear tickling', and that is what people want: faith alone!

He has just said that they will be turned out of the synagogues, persecuted, and that anyone who kills them will think he is serving God.

Now religious churches expel a true believer in Jesus Christ! Many were burned on stake for upholding truth by nominal so called Christians! They prefer blind hypocrites with their salvation packages based on piece-wise verses of Paul, and who are prepared to accept their brainwashing!

He says, "I am going to the Father, and none of YOU ask me where I am going ....... I have said these things and YOU are filled with grief." "I have much to say to YOU more than YOU can bear but the Spirit will guide YOU into all truth.... (etc). Look at the verses that you quoted; "he will glorify me because he will take of mine and disclose it to YOU."
Yes, we are Jesus' disciples too,

We are just His believers, not disciples. What does the Holy Spirit remind us about this?

Luke 14
26 "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

33 So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

yes the Holy Spirit is for us and yes of course the sermon on the Mount, John 15 and other passages are for us too. But WE don't see Jesus now; WE aren't filled with grief that he is going away.
The Spirit reminded the disciples of Jesus' words so that they could write them down; the result is, the Gospels. Or are you saying that the Holy Spirit can remind us of words which Jesus said and which no one else knows about?

That was past. We enjoy peace and joy now after His resurrection. The Holy Spirit inspired the writings of Gospel. Jesus has said much which were not recorded. But any claim of additional information that is not in tune with preaching of Jesus got to be rejected. That applies to the rank outsider, Paul.

The Gospel writers don't record it; that doesn't mean that Jesus didn't say it. You are making the assumption, and judgement, that Paul imagined it because you don't like Paul, don't accept that he was called by Jesus and can't accept that Jesus may have taught him and that the Spirit did, in fact reveal to him what Jesus had said.

One cannot insert words on his own and claim that to be true. Paul was not a witness to the Last Supper. The witnesses don't endorse the word 'do this in remembrance of Me'! Jesus put an end to all rituals. One has to worship in spirit and truth. The spirit of communion is conveyed in John 6. Which is easy to practice? Meaningless ritual or a life in obedience to the words of Jesus? Churches and people always prefer the easy shortcuts and add spices to them!

Paul's account of the Lord's supper was written before the Gospels.

Therefore, the writings of the chosen apostles and disciples should be taken as clarification and authentic.

Well if you regard being a Christian, living our Christian life and receiving the Holy Spirit as something which is the result of OUR efforts, OUR striving, and don't believe Jesus' words that God will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him, Luke 11:13, but only after WE can show that WE obey - then there is nothing I can say to persuade you otherwise.

Jesus will not insert salvation tag in your pocket for mere belief. If you don't cultivate the fruit of the Spirit, you are lost!

John 15:
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles primarily,

Paul was never called to be an apostle by Jesus, let alone to Gentiles separately. Paul, the great divider, divides the apostleship on his own conveniently! No wonder Pauline Christians are continuously dividing themselves! There is no end to it! That is satanic trend.

although he preached to Jews as well. Greeks, and other non Jews, did not belong to Jewish tribes. And God founded his church with 12 apostles, that doesn't mean he is not at liberty to add more. Sorry, but you don't seem to want to even consider that Paul's title of apostle may have been given to him by God, and was certainly not challenged, or taken from him, by the 12 - because this would upset your whole argument. Far better to believe that Paul was arrogant, because that suits your argument.

John called him indirectly a liar! It was not the intention of Jesus to add tribes because it stood at 12, yet He was given authority to reach to all after His supreme sacrifice and ascension.

Yes, YOU have been saying that the canon is man made, WE have been saying that it was inspired by, and made under the authority of, the Holy Spirit.

There is only one Holy Spirit, but why then different canons for different groups?

Even if he was arrogant, does that mean that a) everything he said and wrote was wrong and b) that he couldn't have changed; been forgiven and made new by the Holy Spirit?
You are wrong about some of the things that you say in this thread - that doesn't mean that you can never be right about anything, or that we can never trust anything you write!

I am not saying to reject all Paul wrote, but only asking for filtering with the help of the Holy Spirit. I hold Paul to be a saint and disciple of Jesus but went beyond the authority to grab attention with his superior scholarship.

Yes, YOU put it that way, and may believe it. But whether you like it or not, the writings of Paul are in the Bible - Holy Scripture, the word of God. The early church, under the Holy Spirit, accepted Paul as being an apostle, his writings as the work of an apostle and which were true to the teachings of Jesus and the 12, and included them in the canon of Scripture, which is now closed and cannot have anything added to or taken from it.

Canon came in to effect many centuries after the beginning of Christianity. Please read early church history.

This is why this thread is in "controversial theology". The view that Paul was wrong, not an apostle and cannot be trusted is not the view of the church - mainstream Christianity.

It is well known fact that mainstream Christianity is very much corrupted. Spiritual things are not decided by majority, like, in democracy!

The Holy Spirit can speak to us through other kinds of writing, and does, but will not contradict the Bible.

Paul contradicted and deviated from the Gospel. Book, "Did Saint Paul Deviate From the Gospel" will show on this.

So the cross isn't enough? God loves us but we have to work to save ourselves?
That's not what the NT says, but it's probably no good quoting the verses which say that, because some of them were written by Paul, and it seems that you will only accept some of his teaching.

Paul will not grant you salvation!

 

[thecolorsblend]

And so is yours.
I don't know why we're having this disagreement. Paul and Barnabas argued about who to take on a missionary journey and split up as a result. End of.
We don't know if Paul prayed and asked for the Spirit's help before he talked to Barnabas. He might have done, and ignored the Spirit's advice. He might have done, and failed to communicate to Barnabas what the Spirit was saying. He might not have done, and the argument was partly his fault and one that could have been avoided.

I surmised that Paul did not pray before deciding not to take John Mark, because a) we are not told that he did, and b) I can't believe that he would ask for guidance, receive it, ignore it and start an argument anyway. But neither of us know.

I truly do not know why you keep bringing up "Paul and Barnabas" but that has precisely nothing to do with anything. These were epistles; these were not blog entries. St. Paul could not be expected to record his every passing muse in letters of exhortation to parishes scattered all over the empire. The fact that St. Paul's prayerfully seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance not being mentioned in Sacred Scripture means nothing, least of all to me since I don't believe in man-made nonsense like Sola Scriptura.

 

[Strong in Him]

Mere acceptance of Jesus is not the end of a believer. He should strive to walk in His way, practice His life and learn more about Him, the truth!

Of course. But we are not saved by works and cannot become perfect in this life - especially not by our own efforts.
I apologise if I misunderstood, but that is what your post seemed to be saying and that is what I was challenging.

One will not automatically become born again (to be more precise in translation, born from above). Only Jesus can administer the Holy Spirit baptism for the obedient.

Being born again isn't always automatic, though there are instances in Scripture of the Holy Spirit falling on believers when they haven't specifically asked - Pentecost, for one. What I'm challenging is the idea that we have to show ourselves to be obedient to God before the Spirit is given to us. Jesus said we only had to ask for the Holy Spirit - not prove that we are worthy and then ask in faith.

Only those who accept Jesus will have the strength to practice the Sermon on the Mount. On the other hand, anyone can accept Jesus nominally without caring for righteousness life!

You have mentioned the sermon on the Mount a few times; is that your definition of being a Christian?

Jesus pointed out the greatest two commandments. Now people have come with a concoction for love: mixing up godly love with carnal and friendly love!

Jesus also gave us a NEW commandment, to love as he loves us. His love is the love which says, "no you aren't worthy of it, you haven't been obedient, loving, believed in God and walked with him; you've been against, and hated, him, and deserve to live without him. But I love you and am going to lay down my life for you anyway."
I don't know what you mean by "mixing up God's love with friendly love".

 

[Strong in Him]

They bring in cozy, compromise and convenient concepts of Paul for 'ear tickling', and that is what people want: faith alone!

We are saved by God's grace through faith alone!
If someone is seriously ill in hospital, hears the Gospel, repents of their previous lifestyle - which might have been quite a good one by worldly standards but which was without God - receives Jesus and believes that he died for them; they are saved. Jesus is their Saviour, they will not die spiritually and spend the whole of eternity without God. They may then also be taught about, and receive, the Holy Spirit. That person might die a few days later, without having done any good works or having had a chance to put their faith into practice. They are Christians and died as Christians.

Now religious churches expel a true believer in Jesus Christ!

Do they? Which ones, and why?

Many were burned on stake for upholding truth by nominal so called Christians! They prefer blind hypocrites with their salvation packages based on piece-wise verses of Paul, and who are prepared to accept their brainwashing!

JESUS said that he had come to seek and save the lost, to give his life as a ransom for many, to shed his blood for the forgiveness of sins, to lay down his life for the sheep and that anyone who believed in him, came to him and ate his flesh and blood, had eternal life. Jesus said that; Paul agreed with, explained and taught it.
It seems to me that you can't concede that Paul agreed with Jesus because that might mean that you had to revise your hatred of him, (Paul, I mean.)

We are just His believers, not disciples. What does the Holy Spirit remind us about this?

"Disciple" means learner; you don't learn from Jesus?

That was past. We enjoy peace and joy now after His resurrection. The Holy Spirit inspired the writings of Gospel. Jesus has said much which were not recorded. But any claim of additional information that is not in tune with preaching of Jesus got to be rejected.

Agreed.

That applies to the rank outsider, Paul.

Disagree.
Paul's epistles are in the Bible - the New Testament. If we reject them or don't believe they should be there, we are saying that we don't trust the Bible as the word of God; that some people made a mistake by including Paul's epistles, which means that the Bible contains mistakes and errors. So either we can trust the Bible, or we can't.
I'm sorry if you feel that there are other writings that should be in Holy Scripture, and that had you lived at the time you would have never voted to include Paul's epistles; but that's how it is. They ARE in Scripture and these other writings aren't. Christian churches accept Scripture as the word of God, and accept Paul, end of. Why do you think this is in the Controversial theology section of these forums?
I'm afraid the simple fact is that if you doubt, reject, belittle or diss the things Paul wrote, you are casting doubt on Holy Scripture and the Spirit himself. If he can allow mistakes, false doctrines and the words of a manipulator into the Bible; how can we trust it as being the truth and containing the words of the God of truth?
And you have even said that you accept some of the words and teachings of Paul, which means there are parts of the Bible you accept, and parts you reject; times when you are in agreement with what this "manipulator and rank outsider" teaches - and may even follow it - but there are also times when you don't; when you might not want to touch his teachings with a proverbial bargepole.

One cannot insert words on his own and claim that to be true. Paul was not a witness to the Last Supper.

Why does that matter? You were not a witness to the resurrection, but you are still a Christian and I guess would still say that it happened.

The witnesses don't endorse the word 'do this in remembrance of Me'!

The witnesses don't tell us of a number of things that Jesus did; does that mean he didn't? You are willing to accept dubious writings like "the Gospel of Thomas", and give it as an example of some of the things that Jesus said that are not included in Scripture. Yet when Paul says something which is not included in the Gospels, instead of saying "this is something that Jesus said which the Gospel writers didn't include", you claim it was made up and didn't happen - because you hate Paul.

Jesus put an end to all rituals.

No. Jesus fulfilled the Jewish law for the Jews. He did not say that ritual is wrong, nor that he had come to abolish it.

Therefore, the writings of the chosen apostles and disciples should be taken as clarification and authentic.

This includes the writings of Paul - a fact which the church and many people hear accept. It seems that you don't, even though you are sometimes prepared to accept some of them.

Jesus will not insert salvation tag in your pocket for mere belief.

Anyone who comes to Jesus and believes in him - not just that he existed, but his words and in who he was, the Son of God - has eternal life. Jesus said this himself, John 6:40. God's will is that people accept Jesus and have eternal life.

Faith in Jesus, new life and having his Holy Spirit dwelling in us is bound to lead to a change in our behaviour - we have a new Lord, are new creations and are no longer slaves to sin because we have been saved from it. Accepting Jesus as Lord, seeking first God's kingdom and not material possessions or our own desires, means that we pray, ask Jesus for guidance, live our lives as Jesus wants us to and love as he loves us. If someone claims to be a Christian and have a new life and new heart, but continually and deliberately continues in their old sins and bad habits, and goes against the things that Jesus taught, they are not demonstrating their faith by what they do; having a new heart has not made that much difference to them. In that case, it would be reasonable to question what their faith means to them, how much difference it has made to their lives. That wouldn't mean that they hadn't been saved from sin, that they didn't believe in Jesus and there wasn't a point when they didn't receive him as their Saviour - it would just mean that they weren't demonstrating it. Faith in Jesus comes first - we demonstrate that faith and prove that we have new life by the way we live. But if someone were to say, "I believe", accepted Jesus and died a few days/hours/minutes later, they are saved and accepted by God because of their declaration of faith in Jesus.

Paul was never called to be an apostle by Jesus, let alone to Gentiles separately.QUOTE]
He was, because it is in Scripture, God's word; put there by the Holy Spirit. You can't accept it.

John called him indirectly a liar!

Where?

It was not the intention of Jesus to add tribes because it stood at 12,

We are not a Jewish tribe with Paul as our head, we are children of God with Jesus, the Son, as our Saviour.

I am not saying to reject all Paul wrote, but only asking for filtering with the help of the Holy Spirit. I hold Paul to be a saint and disciple of Jesus but went beyond the authority to grab attention with his superior scholarship.

But if you believe Paul was a manipulator, a rank outsider, a liar (apparently indirectly confirmed by John) and that he hoodwinked people - all things that you have said in this thread, why would you want to believe anything he says?

Paul contradicted and deviated from the Gospel. Book, "Did Saint Paul Deviate From the Gospel" will show on this.

Paul taught the Gospel and the cross, was by your own admission, a saint and a follower of Jesus, and proclaimed Jesus. I have no intention of reading that book; I believe the Bible.

Paul will not grant you salvation!

I never said he would - even Paul would not admit that he could save people from their sins.