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Paul's limited understanding!

thecolorsblend

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In answer to a question I agreed that the Spirit can prevent people from making mistakes that cause arguments - if we ask him to. There is no record that Paul did ask him about who they should take on that journey. We could assume that he did; that he and Barnabas prayed about it, but then why the argument? If the Spirit was guiding Paul, why the "sharp dispute"? It may have led to two missionary journeys instead of one, but it also led to two anointed apostles falling out with each other.
That's arguing from silence. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The fact that Sacred Scripture doesn't record such a thing is irrelevant. The New Testament is mostly letters and private correspondence. It's not a blog where people pour out their angst over what they should or should not do.

Moreover there are very few people out there who believe that epistles constitute everything the apostles ever wrote. It's possible (and, I'd say, highly likely) that they wrote other epistles which were lost to history which included the very things you ask for.
 
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Strong in Him

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Yes, believers are filled with the Holy Spirit, yet the measure of filling depends on a person. How much one is submissive or egoistic. Paul was hindered by his scholarly egoism.

He wasn't hindered.
He was filled with the Spirit 3 days after he met with Jesus on the road to Damascus, Acts 9:17.
The church were praying at Antioch when the Holy Spirit said, "set aside for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them" Acts 13:1. In verse 4 we read that they were sent on their way by the Holy Spirit. Later in that chapter we read that Saul (also called Paul) who was filled with the Spirit laid hands on Elymas, who was a sorcerer, and cause him to go blind. (Jesus said that if someone is from Satan, they cannot cast out Satan - a house divided against itself cannot stand.)
In Acts 14 we are told that Paul preached boldly for the Lord, whom confirmed Paul's message by enabling them to perform miracles, Acts 14:3.
In Acts 19 Paul met believers who had not heard of the Holy Spirit, so he taught them, laid hands on them and they were baptised them in the Spirit. Later in that chapter we are told that God did many miracles through Paul.
In Acts 20 he raised someone from the dead, and then told the believers that the Holy Spirit had told him that he should go to Jerusalem, even though he would face persecution there.
Romans 8 is a chapter teaching on life in the Spirit and how the Spirit assures us that we are God's children, and heirs with Christ.
Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12and Ephesians 4 teach about the gifts that the Holy Spirit gives, and in 1 Corinthians 14, Paul spends some time talking about the gift of tongues.
2 Corinthians 1:22 says that God's Spirit in our hearts is his mark of ownership on us, and a guarantee of our future inheritance.
In other letters he tells people not to quench or grieve the Spirit, but to prophesy and speak in tongues. And there are many more verses when he says how the Spirit spoke to him.

If Paul was hindered from receiving the Spirit, I do not believe he could have taught all this, and more, performed the miracles he did, and lead the life he did - preaching Jesus.

That was his big mistake of not seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

That was A mistake that he made on that occasion; that doesn't negate everything he ever said, did or wrote.

There are bound to be divisions between sheep and goats, believers and non-believers and so on.

Granted - but when they happened as a result of Paul's teaching, you seem to be saying that it was Paul who caused them.

Paul's ministry before he was introduced to the Jerusalem church had come to naught.

Paul's ministry before being converted was to persecute the church, because he was so zealous for Judaism.

The support from the chosen apostles was not that overwhelming.

They were wary of him until Barnabas stood up and told them of Paul's conversion experience. Until then, all they knew about Saul of Tarsus was that he was a zealous Jew who was against the followers of Jesus, had put some in jail and may have even killed some.

But once he got their support, he sensed gain and authority, and he went beyond limits to propagate his ideas unsupported by the preaching of Jesus on many counts.

Which is your idea but is not found in Scripture.

They are the goodies people want to grab. It no way elaborates the preaching of Jesus; for example: Sermon on the Mount.

They are the heart of the Gospel!
Paul's ministry and mission was not to preach the Sermon on the mount - Jesus had already done that. His calling was to preach Jesus as Lord and Christ; tell the Jews that the person they crucified for blasphemy was their long awaited Messiah, and to tell the Gentiles that Jesus had won salvation, forgiveness and reconciliation to God for them.
There is no Gospel without the cross. The Gospel is not "take the cosy, nice bits of Jesus' teaching and his words of kindness, and do good deeds". The Gospel is that Jesus died for our sins, has saved us, reconciled us to God and given us eternal life - as Jesus, Peter, John and Paul said. The Gospel is that only Jesus is the way to the Father and the name that saves people - as Jesus and Peter said.
IF, (and I'm not sure and not accusing) you are trying to put forward a gospel that does not include the cross and teach that the doctrines I have just mentioned are "goodies that people want to grab", then I'm afraid that your words are NOT prompted by the Holy Spirit, as you claimed in an earlier post.


Tendency to dilute and deviate from the preaching of a leader in any religion--for that matter--begins right from the day he departs. Ignorant Gentiles gladly grabbed the compromises offered by Paul.

Such as?
Scripture in the NT refers to the OT only. Disputed 2nd Peter cannot offer any support to the biased interpretation.

I don't agree, and you seem to be disputing Peter's words now - did the Spirit make another mistake in allowing his book into the Bible.

But say for a minute that Scripture is only the OT, what does that mean for you? Jesus and the Spirit were present at creation; the Spirit spoke through the prophets, who prophesied about Jesus and the cross. Jeremiah said that one day God would make a NEW covenant, which he did at the cross, and Ezekiel said that God would one day put his Spirit IN people, which happened at Pentecost. Jesus and Paul taught these things; Jesus and Paul believed in, affirmed and quoted the OT.

One cannot call manipulated, mistranslated, misinterpreted records as God's words.

It's your idea that they were manipulated; any mistranslations are minor - the authors all agree, and always have agreed, on the Gospel. And if they are misinterpreted, then they are misinterpreted by US; human beings. Some of whom have hidden agendas, or their own ideas, or who belong to a cult which may have financial reason for misinterpreting them and imposing their own ideas on people.

Because they were not arrogant like Paul.

So all 12 apostles, chosen by Jesus himself, were all arrogant?

No chosen apostle called him another apostle.

As far as we know. But no-one shouted at, or opposed, him for calling himself an apostle either.

In fact, Paul even did not have the qualifications set out for choosing the replacement for Judas Iscariot.

They only chose 1 person to replace Judas Iscariot, and Paul hadn't been converted then. Afterwards, the Lord added someone else to the apostles. The word "apostle" means "sent", and Paul and Barnabas were certainly sent out by God.

Look at the Protestantism that has replaced Jesus by a pot bellied Santa Claus, suffering cross by glittering tree and great resurrection with Easter eggs fun! Is Bible a comic book to amuse the children?

I think you'll find it was mostly retailers and chocolate manufacturers who promoted, and changed, the story of Saint Nicholas giving presents to the children into a man coming down the chimney - not the church. The church is keen to put Christ back into Christmas. Chocolate eggs also have nothing to do with Protestantism.
 
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Strong in Him

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That's arguing from silence. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The fact that Sacred Scripture doesn't record such a thing is irrelevant.

No it's not.
Paul and Barnabas had a sharp disagreement and parted company as a result. The question was "could the Holy Spirit not have stopped them from this argument and mistake?" Yes, he could, and I said that we are not told that Paul asked the Holy Spirit for such help; to prevent him making a wrong choice.
Again, if we assume that he DID in fact pray and ask for help - then why did the two apostles argue? Did they pray for the Spirit's help but the Spirit said, "you're on your own", or did they pray separately and then disagree over what the Spirit had said. We're not told details because Luke believed that the details weren't important. They argued; Luke decided to record that fact, presumably to show that men of God can disagree, make mistakes and are still human. God used it for good because there were then 2 missionary journies instead of one.
 
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thecolorsblend

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No it's not.
Paul and Barnabas had a sharp disagreement and parted company as a result. The question was "could the Holy Spirit not have stopped them from this argument and mistake?" Yes, he could, and I said that we are not told that Paul asked the Holy Spirit for such help; to prevent him making a wrong choice.
That doesn't mean it never happened. It simply means St. Paul and/or none of the other apostles thought to mention it.

Yours is an argument from silence. You can resent that as much as you want but that's what it is.
 
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Righttruth

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Nowhere does our Lord say anything which has the effect of validating your historically dubious claims about the St. Thomas Christians. I have asked, and will continue to ask, that you provide some actual evidence in support of your claims; otherwise I am forced to dismiss them as uncharitable, prejudicial irrelevance.

I have visited the oldest Christian church in the world at Palayur, Kerala, India. As I had indicated earlier, St. Thomas did not come with Pauline epistles to India. Apostle Bartholomew also visited India; he also did not bring Pauline doctrines to preach. I have visited Marthoma church near by. There was absolutely no Pauline influence to start with. Baptism was administered to new believers followed by sharing of the bread and wine. That was not meant to proclaim the death of Jesus! It was to make them know the spiritual significance according to John 6.

The worst later development that is about a century old is the Pentecostal movement in USA based specifically on Paul's Corinthian letter that was meant to solve the wacky problem there of mocking at what happened during Pentecost in Jerusalem. Now people speak gibberish prompted by their emotional spirits, but claim spuriously the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Besides, many dubious doctrines have been developed by Protestant groups solely based on self-claiming Paul!
 
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ScottA

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Yes, in deviating from the truth, like, many professional preachers of the day!
Not so. By the providence of God to carry His word down through the pages of history (His story), Paul is approved...whereas, many professional preachers are not, nor will their misdeeds stand the test of time.
 
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Strong in Him

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That doesn't mean it never happened. It simply means St. Paul and/or none of the other apostles thought to mention it.

Yours is an argument from silence.

And so is yours.
I don't know why we're having this disagreement. Paul and Barnabas argued about who to take on a missionary journey and split up as a result. End of.
We don't know if Paul prayed and asked for the Spirit's help before he talked to Barnabas. He might have done, and ignored the Spirit's advice. He might have done, and failed to communicate to Barnabas what the Spirit was saying. He might not have done, and the argument was partly his fault and one that could have been avoided.

I surmised that Paul did not pray before deciding not to take John Mark, because a) we are not told that he did, and b) I can't believe that he would ask for guidance, receive it, ignore it and start an argument anyway. But neither of us know.
 
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Strong in Him

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Yes, in deviating from the truth, like, many professional preachers of the day!

Ok, so what is the truth that Paul is supposed to have deviated from?
 
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Wgw

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I have visited the oldest Christian church in the world at Palayur, Kerala, India. As I had indicated earlier, St. Thomas did not come with Pauline epistles to India. Apostle Bartholomew also visited India; he also did not bring Pauline doctrines to preach. I have visited Marthoma church near by. There was absolutely no Pauline influence to start with. Baptism was administered to new believers followed by sharing of the bread and wine. That was not meant to proclaim the death of Jesus! It was to make them know the spiritual significance according to John 6.

The worst later development that is about a century old is the Pentecostal movement in USA based specifically on Paul's Corinthian letter that was meant to solve the wacky problem there of mocking at what happened during Pentecost in Jerusalem. Now people speak gibberish prompted by their emotional spirits, but claim spuriously the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Besides, many dubious doctrines have been developed by Protestant groups solely based on self-claiming Paul!

Assuming you did visit Palayur, that does not provide you with any basis for your historical claims. I've visited various Roman ruins, and I'm not Edward Gibbon.
 
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Righttruth

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Not so. By the providence of God to carry His word down through the pages of history (His story), Paul is approved...whereas, many professional preachers are not, nor will their misdeeds stand the test of time.

That was his claim to preach his made-up abridged gospel which suits the present day preachers for a living!
 
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Righttruth

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Assuming you did visit Palayur, that does not provide you with any basis for your historical claims. I've visited various Roman ruins, and I'm not Edward Gibbon.

I have studied the early church history. More than that, the epistles of Paul indicate that too when you compare that with the gospel books and epistles from chosen apostles, including Hebrews.
 
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Wgw

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I have studied the early church history.


Then provide actual historical evidence.

More than that, the epistles of Paul indicate that too when you compare that with the gospel books and epistles from chosen apostles, including Hebrews.


Your subjective opinion; we disagree.
 
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ScottA

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That was his claim to preach his made-up abridged gospel which suits the present day preachers for a living!
You have missed the point completely: The fact that Paul's epistles have come through God's providence over His word down through history, shows them to be approved by God. What present day preachers do with it has no bearing on God's providence. Only time will tell. But in the case of Paul...time has already told the truth, which only God could have allowed in His providence. Since God has already approved Paul's writings - you cannot disapprove them.
 
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Righttruth

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Then provide actual historical evidence.

I cannot quote the material I have read from different books. Number of books are available on that. If you are interested in knowing the truth, I strongly advice to read them.


Your subjective opinion; we disagree.

It is very much known fact that Paul was not a part of the earthly ministry of Jesus. He had no occasion to hear the parable explained by Jesus to chosen apostles. Being a crafty scholar, he fabricated populist suggestions and imagined stories that have nothing to do with Jesus' preaching. You may want to read "Did Saint Paul Deviate From the Gospel?"
 
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Crystal C

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More than one of Paul's teachings conflict with that of Jesus.

However, Jesus did forewarn when he was alive in his earthly ministry in Matthew 24.

I think the reason Christianity is divided today and the world is in the state it is in is because Jesus truth has been largely overshadowed by what is false.

But we were forewarned and Jesus would have known what was to come. I think that is why we should take comfort in the other scriptures that tell us of the father calling to him those whom he chooses. This so that we know the Bible is not that door to salvation but God's spirit calling us forth is.



There are many contradictions between Paul's own teachings.

So I guess that has nothing to do with Paul's intention to adapt his teachings as per culture?

Why did Peter said many has been misusing Paul's teachings? Is it probably because they are using something that does not belong to them?

So why is Christianity divided today? Is it because we are taking all of Paul's teachings which are distinctly adapted for different cultures?? It makes no surprise why we are....*sigh*.

Is it really God we are following or the folly of the majority? Jesus said, only few will find it so why am I surprised....
 
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Wgw

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It is very much known fact that Paul was not a part of the earthly ministry of Jesus. He had no occasion to hear the parable explained by Jesus to chosen apostles. Being a crafty scholar, he fabricated populist suggestions and imagined stories that have nothing to do with Jesus' preaching. You may want to read "Did Saint Paul Deviate From the Gospel?"

I have read these and other low end polemics; when even relatively high end scholarship cannot make this case convincingly, I see no point in downmarket polemics.
 
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