Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Douggg]

Do not be deceived by minor differences.
They are clearly three different accounts of the same conversation.

But your point had been that regarding fleeing when they see Jerusalem surrounded was only said to the disciples in Luke 21.

I showed that it was to all of the people, that heard Jesus's words for them to flee. Can you just not say that you were mistaken about that part?

 

[Postvieww]

But Riberra is going about it by misrepresenting what the mystery is. The mystery is not the resurrection. The resurrection was known before Paul's revealing of the mystery of the rapture. And Jesus coming with the souls for the resurrection part of the rapture/resurrection - not a return to earth in the text.

1. There is the coming of Jesus to take them who are live to the place he prepared in his Father's house - which has many mansions. Which is in heaven. Which no-one one here from no-taken-to-heaven camp have offered any explanation for where his Father's house is - except it is obviously in heaven.

2. The text in 1thessalonians4:16-17 says the (translated) living are caught up (a) to meet the resurrected saints in the clouds (b) from there, together, to meet Jesus in the air. It doesn't say in the text of 1thessalonians4:16-17 that they are then taken to heaven, nor descend as a group back down to earth.

That they ascend to heaven is in the passage about Jesus's "coming" for the living saints in John 14:1-3.

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The are numerous passages in the four gospels of Jesus saying where the Father is - and that is in Heaven. Including the opening to the Lord's prayer.... "Our Father which art in heaven". So the Father's house is in heaven - and in the Father's house are where the many mansions are.

Jesus said he goes to prepare a place for us - so he obviously was talking about a place he presently was not - which he was speaking to the disciples here on earth - that he would go from. And to the place he would go to - heaven - and from his Father's house, would "come again" to take the living saints to heaven.



Again, there is nothing in 1thessalonians4:13-18 about Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection to being doing so in glory that every eye shall see him.



The heaven Jesus leaves from is the third heaven. No-one is saying that the meeting is in the third heaven. The meeting with Jesus is in the air, the second heaven. The clouds where the resurrected and raptured saints join together, before continuing to meet Jesus in the air, is in the first heaven (the earth's atmosphere) - which Jesus never descends into the clouds in the text of 1thessalonians4:13-18.



But it doesn't say in the the text of Matthew 24:31 that that souls come from heaven - to be gathered the angels, which is also a misfit to the rapture/resurrection. There is an almost exact match in Deuteronomy 30 of the language of gathering from one corner of heaven to the other as referring to the scattered children of Israel, which explains who is being gathered - by the angels, after Jesus has returned.




From the time the cosmos parts in Revelation 6, the sixth seal, Jesus is seen by the entire earth. He doesn't disappear from sight after that. His appearance in heaven (the third heaven) for all to see Him, will be the driver for the kings of the earth to gather their armies to make war on Jesus. There is no invisible return of Jesus to earth to carry out Judgements.

Dougg said post #5104

But Riberra is going about it by misrepresenting what the mystery is. The mystery is not the resurrection. The resurrection was known before Paul's revealing of the mystery of the rapture. And Jesus coming with the souls for the resurrection part of the rapture/resurrection - not a return to earth in the text.

1 Corin 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

If you must be precise you could say the mystery is the changing of those that are alive and remain, at the resurrection. I would submit to you, our changing into glorified bodies is part of the resurrection.

On what authority or method of exegesis do you separate being changed from being the mystery Paul spoke of in this passage? It would seem to me the context is clear.

“Rapture” is no way associated with this text. Being caught up is not mentioned in this text as I have previously pointed out. Although I do believe this passage and 1 Thess 4 are the same event, I see no basis in this passage for your claim the mystery is the “rapture” not the resurrection!

If I have misunderstood what you said here please clarify.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Psalm3704]

I agree with some of the comments made about the temple in 70 AD by n2thenight and bible2.

70 AD was never a fulfillment as Christ addressed not just the sanctuary of the temple alone, He mentioned the great buildings will be destroyed with not one stone on top of each other, Mark 13:1-2 and the buildings of the temple, Matthew 24:1-2. Clearly when one looks at pictures today of the entire temple completed by Herod, many outer structures of the temple are still intact with stones on top of each other, as well as some inner structures still standing.

Mark 13:1-2, Matthew 24:1-2 and Luke 21:5-6 are definitely not parallel verses.

1) Jesus was inside the temple talking to spectators about the temple:

In Luke 21:5-6, Jesus was inside the temple, speaking to "spectators" about the temple: "some spake of the temple,"

Luke 21:5-6 KJV
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.​

2) Jesus was outside the temple talking to one of His disciple about the great buildings:

In Mark 13:1-2, Jesus went out of the temple. He's no longer inside and "one of the disciple" conversed with Him. Christ said the stones of the "great buildings" will not be left on top of another. Here He not talking about the temple.

Mark 13:1-2 KJV
1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.​

3) Jesus left the temple talking to His disciples about the buildings of the temple:

In Matthew 24:1-2, Jesus departed from the temple and spoke to His "disciples" about "the buildings of the temple."

Matthew 24:1-2 KJV
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.​

*********************************

Three different prophetic scriptures at three different locations with three different audiences.


Some structures of the temple still intact.

Western Wall intact and with stones on top of each other in lower right side of photo.

********************************

If people would just stop and think for a moment, there was no way every stone from the entire temple could of been dismantled in 70 AD with it's most destructive primitive weapon being the catapult at that time. In order to leave all stones not left upon one another, they would have to employ people to manually dislocate each stone. Just look at the size of each stone on the western wall and compare it to the people standing nearby, they're huge.

In old testament prophecies, Jerusalem will be nuked and destroyed during the tribulation (AoD to be exact), Isaiah 29:1-8, Zechariah 14:12. With modern technology, how hard will it be to disassemble all stones of the entire temple when a nuclear bomb hits causing intense heat of 20 million degrees fahrenheit with 600 mph winds blowing in all directions? Everything would be instantly vaporized, turned into ashes and blown away. Not one stone on top of another!

.

 

[BABerean2]

The second Jewish temple was completely destroyed in 70 AD, just as Jesus said it would be.
No stone was left on top of another.
Years later pilgrims who went to the site could not find any trace of the temple.

Tremendous confusion has been produced by not knowing that the Romans had built Fort Antonia adjacent to the temple and had connected the two with a bridge as explained by the Jewish historian Josephus.

The areas now known today as "The Temple Mount" and "The Wailing Wall" were part of Fort Antonia.
The Romans did not destroy the fort they had built, during the siege of 70 AD.

http://rogerswebsite.com/others/The-Temple-Mount-and-Fort-Antonio.htm

During the last few years, Israeli archeologists excavated the only part of the temple that would be left if the temple was taken down to the ground. There was an underground sewer system which carried the blood and water away from the temple, after the daily sacrifices.

By following this sewer system the archeologists have located the basement of Solomon's temple. It contained the clay seals used to seal temple scrolls. Some of these seals contained the names of temple priests.

The original temple was located near Gihon Spring because the water was needed for cleaning up after the sacrifices. It was just south of Fort Antonia.

Much of this is revealed in the recent book written by Robert Cornuke, "Temple".

It is available at amazon.com and wnd.com.

http://superstore.wnd.com/TEMPLE-Am...rything-About-the-Location-of-Solomons-Temple

.

 

[Short Timer]

Note that Matthew 24:20 doesn't require that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath will be in effect (as far as God is concerned) at the future time that Matthew 24:20 is fulfilled. And the parallel verse in Mark 13:18 doesn't mention the sabbath. For some Christians choose to keep the sabbath, while others choose not to keep it (Romans 14:5). The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath hasn't been in effect since Jesus' crucifixion, when, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18).

OK, then why don't you "EXPLAIN" to "Everybody" why a temple is rebuild, why sacrifices restart, why the AC stops the sacrifices by entering the Holy of Holies,

and why people in the trib will have to be willing to give up the life of the flesh to be saved, or literally die, but the church doesn't,

what makes the difference between the church saints and the trib saints???

But before you explain all that there's one other thing I'd like for you and some others to explain,

And that is how you can "know" so much about the scriptures but have no explanation from scripture for the differences between the church today and the coming trib????

Why doesn't Jesus allow the devil to kill all those who confess Jesus in the church, as the devil will during the trib???

Like reading a "Technical Manual" that describes a problem, but you can't comprehend what is causing the problem, so all you talk about is the "Symptoms" of the problem, never giving the "REASON" that is causing the problem.

Scripture gives an explanation (REASON) for everything that occurs, and if you can't explain the "REASON" why a problem does/does not occur to certain people when certain "Conditions" are met,

then you don't understand the "MANUAL".

And when you ignore the "Cross references" given in scripture that help explain the problem and can "Repair" the problem, then you have the same problem you're claiming to help other people "FIX".

Scripture describes that as "Blind leading the blind".

So, for you and others, stop talking about the symptoms of what is happening and start talking about the "Reason" that is causing the problem and how to fix it,

Yes, there is a "Reason" the church can escape the trib.

 

[Short Timer]

When Jesus says "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), he is referring to the first part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, he is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, he is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

Sennacherib, Nebuchadnezzar, Rome, the AC, and Satan's army have or will surrounded Jerusalem.

 

[Douggg]

1 Corin 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

If you must be precise you could say the mystery is the changing of those that are alive and remain, at the resurrection. I would submit to you, our changing into glorified bodies is part of the resurrection.

On what authority or method of exegesis do you separate being changed from being the mystery Paul spoke of in this passage? It would seem to me the context is clear.

Exegesis is critical investigating the scriptures for errors in transmission. I am not being being critical of the scriptures.

I gave the rationale of why the resurrection itself was not a mystery, copying and pasting two bible passages, which made it clear that awareness that there would be a resurrection was widely, and commonly known. So the resurrection is not the mystery.

What happens to the living (in Christ) was not known, and that was the mystery Paul spoke of. And that it would take part at the same time as the resurrection of them asleep in Christ, with Jesus coming expressly for that rapture/resurrection.

The changing of the living - cannot be part of a resurrection because the living are not dead. Resurrections only apply to persons who have died. That the rapture and resurrection for them in Christ take place almost simultaneously doesn't make one into the other.

As a matter of convenience in discussion people often say "the rapture" - but what is actually implied is the rapture of the living plus the almost simutaneous resurrection of them asleep in Christ - which can be viewed as one event because Jesus is coming to receive both.

Awareness that there would be a resurrection was documented in Daniel 12. It was more general in understanding, but prophecy progressed the understanding of how things would take place and what order became clearer.

To illustrate this point, Jesus gave more information than was in Daniel 12, saying he was the resurrection, and that he would raise them up who believe in him the last day. Then, Paul's revealing of the mystery of what happens to the living, gives further information to the general understanding of the resurrection in Daniel 12 and what is found in the gospels. Then, John is presented by Jesus His Revelation, which in Revelation 20, regarding the resurrection of the martyred tribulation saints, and a thousand years later the resurrection for the great white throne judgment, gives even futher clarity. It's about progressive revelation.

The big mistake post trib makes, imo, is that it does not recognize that progressive revelation of the resurrection(s) reveals that there is a separate coming of Jesus for the rapture/resurrection, than his return down to this earth to rule and reign.

Now what you could make a valid point on (if you repackaged a little bit what you say) is that when Paul revealed the mystery of the Rapture, he also gave progressive revelation regarding them that are asleep in Christ. That the two (the rapture and resurrection for them in Christ) would take part as basically one event, and that Jesus would be coming to do both.

Please don't give a knee-jerk reaction what I am saying to you, and get mad at me. It's really not that bad what I am saying.

 

[BABerean2]

The big mistake post trib makes is that it does not recognize that progressive revelation of the resurrection(s) reveals that there is a separate coming of Jesus for the rapture/resurrection, than his return down to this earth to rule and reign.

If you can show this in the text of 1st Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 it would be greatly appreciated...
.

 

[Short Timer]

That was an interesting chart. The new testament equilvalencies on the top half - lined up with the old testament feasts on the bottom half.

Yes but an "Extremely few" in the church know anything about the feast or their foreshadowing/prefiguring of the New Testament.

"Passover lamb" and "Scapegoat" is the most you will ever hear, if even that much, but even with these two, few understand the difference between them,

which is why they don't understand why the blood of the Passover lamb will allow them to "passover" (pre trib rapture) the death angels (Satan) when he is here on earth killing all "All flesh", save a few.

And they don't understand why the "Goat for the people" or their "Body of sin" will have to literally die as the Scapegoat did before "ATONEMENT" is complete in the "Day of Atonement", or Trib period.

And few make any connection between the feast of trumpets and God's (Jesus) voice sounding like a trumpet or the "Trump of God", many want to say it's the noise made by an angel blowing on a trumpet, not a noise made by the Voice of God.

It's kinda funny, how becoming as humble and ignorant as a little child, can make you one of the wises people on earth.

 

[Short Timer]

If you can show this in the text of 1st Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 it would be greatly appreciated...
.

last three days.
http://i27.tinypic.com/x3gy0p.jpg

"Day of Christ"
"Day of the Lord"
"Day of God"

Jews won't believe without "Signs and wonders", which Jesus won't give,

Except with the "Day of Christ" or Rapture, that will be a sign the world/Israel can no longer ignore that Jesus was who he said he was, the Messiah,

but this strong delusion God is sending with his lying signs and wonders and the two witnesses showing up will "TEST" the "FAITH" of Israel/world in Jesus, but the disappearance of the church will be one sign nobody can deny.

Scripture doesn't just throw words out there like "Day of" unless they have a sufficient meaning to a particular event.

 

[Douggg]

If you can show this in the text of 1st Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 it would be greatly appreciated...
.

All I can show is that there is no activities normally associated with the Second Coming in 1thessalonians4:13-18, and tie the changing of the living, and the coming of Jesus in that passage as being his coming in John 14 for believers regarding the mansions in heaven.

 

[Douggg]

And they don't understand why the "Goat for the people" or their "Body of sin" will have to literally die as the Scapegoat did before "ATONEMENT" is complete in the "Day of Atonement", or Trib period.

The scape goat was sent into the wilderness to azazel Leviticus 16:8 , imo, basically to show that all the sins of man can point right back to Satan for creating the situation.

The scape goat originally was not put to death. It is not a biblical requirement. What happened was there was an episode of the scape goat wandering back to town, so by tradition thereafter when the scapegoat was lead into the wilderness, it was pushed over a cliff.

 

[Short Timer]

The scape goat was sent into the wilderness, basically to show that all the sins of man can point right back to Satan for creating the situation.

The scape goat originally was not put to death. It is not a biblical requirement. What happened was there was an episode of the scape goat wandering back to town, so by tradition thereafter when the scapegoat was lead into the wilderness, it was pushed over a cliff.

Yes, as Israel got farther away from God they started killing the scapegoat instead of turning it loose to die on it's own in the wilderness,

They had a tradition of tying a colored cloth up in the temple, when it turned white they knew the scapegoat had died,

but in order to "help God", and do what "Seemth right" to them, they had to start killing the scapegoat.

 

[Short Timer]

I could say a lot about this,but I think I shall leave it alone for now,but just so you know,in ad70 the temples were not totally destroyed,and won't be until Christ feet touch the Mount........

Mt 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The Wailing wall is not the temple, Israel been seaching for the exact spot where the temple sat for years, their "digging around" on the mount looking for that spot has caused problems between them and the Muslims.

 

[Postvieww]

Exegesis is critical investigating the scriptures for errors in transmission. I am not being being critical of the scriptures.

I gave the rationale of why the resurrection itself was not a mystery, copying and pasting two bible passages, which made it clear that awareness that there would be a resurrection was widely, and commonly known. So the resurrection is not the mystery.

What happens to the living (in Christ) was not known, and that was the mystery Paul spoke of. And that it would take part at the same time as the resurrection of them asleep in Christ, with Jesus coming expressly for that rapture/resurrection.

The changing of the living - cannot be part of a resurrection because the living are not dead. Resurrections only apply to persons who have died. That the rapture and resurrection for them in Christ take place almost simultaneously doesn't make one into the other.

As a matter of convenience in discussion people often say "the rapture" - but what is actually implied is the rapture of the living plus the almost simutaneous resurrection of them asleep in Christ - which can be viewed as one event because Jesus is coming to receive both.

Awareness that there would be a resurrection was documented in Daniel 12. It was more general in understanding, but prophecy progressed the understanding of how things would take place and what order became clearer.

To illustrate this point, Jesus gave more information than was in Daniel 12, saying he was the resurrection, and that he would raise them up who believe in him the last day. Then, Paul's revealing of the mystery of what happens to the living, gives further information to the general understanding of the resurrection in Daniel 12 and what is found in the gospels. Then, John is presented by Jesus His Revelation, which in Revelation 20, regarding the resurrection of the martyred tribulation saints, and a thousand years later the resurrection for the great white throne judgment, gives even futher clarity. It's about progressive revelation.

The big mistake post trib makes, imo, is that it does not recognize that progressive revelation of the resurrection(s) reveals that there is a separate coming of Jesus for the rapture/resurrection, than his return down to this earth to rule and reign.

Now what you could make a valid point on (if you repackaged a little bit what you say) is that when Paul revealed the mystery of the Rapture, he also gave progressive revelation regarding them that are asleep in Christ. That the two (the rapture and resurrection for them in Christ) would take part as basically one event, and that Jesus would be coming to do both.

Please don't give a knee-jerk reaction what I am saying to you, and get mad at me. It's really not that bad what I am saying.

Dougg said post #5104

But Riberra is going about it by misrepresenting what the mystery is. The mystery is not the resurrection. The resurrection was known before Paul's revealing of the mystery of the rapture. And Jesus coming with the souls for the resurrection part of the rapture/resurrection - not a return to earth in the text.

My bold and underline above:

I agree with the first part of your statement “ The mystery is not the resurrection. The resurrection was known”. I should have been more clear in my wording. When I said “our changing into glorified bodies is part of the resurrection” I should have said the two were part of the same event happen at about the same time, dead raised first, then the living changed. I am fully aware the living are not dead.

The part I don’t believe you can show in the text is “Paul's revealing of the mystery of the rapture”.

The word mystery was specifically tied to believers being changed not a coming of any kind.

1 Corin 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Apart from this verse what scripture can be used to show a mystery coming?

Doug said in post # 5111

The big mistake post trib makes, imo, is that it does not recognize that progressive revelation of the resurrection(s) reveals that there is a separate coming of Jesus for the rapture/resurrection, than his return down to this earth to rule and reign.

One point of disagreement in the above statement is when you use “resurrection(s)”. I would challenge anyone to show one scripture in the entirety of the word of God the speaks of multiple, or phases concerning the resurrection of the righteous dead. I understand your point about progressive revelation, but disagree because Jesus only spoke of the resurrection “at the last day” John 6.

He had all the revelation He needed and did not need to wait to hear from Paul and John. The only way one can arrive at a “separate coming of Jesus for the rapture/resurrection, than his return down to this earth to rule and reign” is to divide up the passages on the coming of the Lord passages, based on minor difference in wording, as I pointed out in several previous posts. There is nothing in any coming of the Lord verses that states or implies a return to heaven for the church. The only passage even remotely argued for that point is John 14, and IMHO there is no clear statement of going back to heaven. All of that is assumed to be the case, based on the fact Jesus went to heaven to prepare that place and His statement “that where I am there ye may be also”. When He comes to receive us He is here not there. It is clearly stated He comes, but it only assumed we go back with Him.

Rev 21:2 tells us the New Jerusalem was perepared in heaven and comes down to the new earth.

Rev 21:27 says only those whose names are in the Lamb’s book pf life will enter .

Those are two clearly stated facts, we do not have to assume anything.

I believe this is the mansions Jesus went to prepare. In the post trib view you just have wait a little longer to enter them.

Dougg said:

Please don't give a knee-jerk reaction what I am saying to you, and get mad at me. It's really not that bad what I am saying.

Not mad nor is my knee jerking. I fully understand the points you are making and just offer my reasons why I believe some of them are incorrect. I would much rather have a discussion with this civil tone than what happens many times on this forum.

 

[iamlamad]

There is not rapture to Heaven....Only a caught up in the air happening after the resurrection (if dead) and the changing into imortality for the believers still alive unto the coming of the Lord.

This is the Mystery of the Resurrection.
-The souls of dead believers will receive their immortal physical body.
-Those alive and remain will be changed into immortal physical body.

Readers, this is ONLY theory. Pretribbers have a theory also, that we DO go to heaven. John 14 certainly adds to the pretrib theory: HEAVEN is where Jesus went to build mansions for us. And the purpose is a PLACE for us while wrath is being poured out on the earth. Luke 21:36 adds more, that we can ESCAPE what is coming on earth, as in HIS WRATH.
1 Thes. 1:10 adds more, that we will be "delivered us from the wrath to come." 1 Thes. 5:9 adds more, that God will NOT set any appointments for us with His wrath. Rev. 3:10 adds even more: "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation" which is coming upon the world.

Then there are MANY verses that tell us His wrath is for the SINNER, nor for the just.

 

[iamlamad]

Dougg said post #5104

But Riberra is going about it by misrepresenting what the mystery is. The mystery is not the resurrection. The resurrection was known before Paul's revealing of the mystery of the rapture. And Jesus coming with the souls for the resurrection part of the rapture/resurrection - not a return to earth in the text.

My bold and underline above:

I agree with the first part of your statement “ The mystery is not the resurrection. The resurrection was known”. I should have been more clear in my wording. When I said “our changing into glorified bodies is part of the resurrection” I should have said the two were part of the same event happen at about the same time, dead raised first, then the living changed. I am fully aware the living are not dead.

The part I don’t believe you can show in the text is “Paul's revealing of the mystery of the rapture”.

The word mystery was specifically tied to believers being changed not a coming of any kind.

1 Corin 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Apart from this verse what scripture can be used to show a mystery coming?

Doug said in post # 5111

The big mistake post trib makes, imo, is that it does not recognize that progressive revelation of the resurrection(s) reveals that there is a separate coming of Jesus for the rapture/resurrection, than his return down to this earth to rule and reign.

One point of disagreement in the above statement is when you use “resurrection(s)”. I would challenge anyone to show one scripture in the entirety of the word of God the speaks of multiple, or phases concerning the resurrection of the righteous dead. I understand your point about progressive revelation, but disagree because Jesus only spoke of the resurrection “at the last day” John 6.

He had all the revelation He needed and did not need to wait to hear from Paul and John. The only way one can arrive at a “separate coming of Jesus for the rapture/resurrection, than his return down to this earth to rule and reign” is to divide up the passages on the coming of the Lord passages, based on minor difference in wording, as I pointed out in several previous posts. There is nothing in any coming of the Lord verses that states or implies a return to heaven for the church. The only passage even remotely argued for that point is John 14, and IMHO there is no clear statement of going back to heaven. All of that is assumed to be the case, based on the fact Jesus went to heaven to prepare that place and His statement “that where I am there ye may be also”. When He comes to receive us He is here not there. It is clearly stated He comes, but it only assumed we go back with Him.

Rev 21:2 tells us the New Jerusalem was perepared in heaven and comes down to the new earth.

Rev 21:27 says only those whose names are in the Lamb’s book pf life will enter .

Those are two clearly stated facts, we do not have to assume anything.

I believe this is the mansions Jesus went to prepare. In the post trib view you just have wait a little longer to enter them.

Dougg said:

Please don't give a knee-jerk reaction what I am saying to you, and get mad at me. It's really not that bad what I am saying.

Not mad nor is my knee jerking. I fully understand the points you are making and just offer my reasons why I believe some of them are incorrect. I would much rather have a discussion with this civil tone than what happens many times on this forum.

Paul DID mention "order."
1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul chose to leave out one that John mentions: the "second death" resurrection of all those in hell, for example. That resurrection too will come in "order," but will be 1000 years after the primary resurrection that is reserved for the righteous.

 

[Riberra]

But Riberra is going about it by misrepresenting what the mystery is. The mystery is not the resurrection. The resurrection was known before Paul's revealing of the mystery of the rapture. And Jesus coming with the souls for the resurrection part of the rapture/resurrection - not a return to earth in the text.

I am well aware that the MYSTERY that Paul is talking about is the changing of the believers still alive into an immortal physical body UNTO the Coming of the Lord.My point is that the changing into immortality of the living believers is TIED with the resurrection of the dead believers and is TIED with the Trumpet sounding AFTER the Tribulation.

What i have explained to you is that this have nothing to do with a MYSTERY RAPTURE to Heaven before the Tribulation.

 

[keras]

Then there are MANY verses that tell us His wrath is for the SINNER, nor for the just.

I agree, but the Lord will provide protection, not removal during His terrible Day of wrath. Joel 1:15, Isaiah 66:15-17, Rev. 6:12-17

There is no invisible return of Jesus to earth to carry out Judgements.

Wrong Dougg: Psalms 18:11, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 89:46, Habakkuk 3:4
All the people of the earth, who will cry out: the great Day of the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb has come and who can stand? don't see the Lord, but they see His judgement/punishment. Revelation 6:15-17, Isaiah 2:21, Luke 23:29-31

 

[BABerean2]

All I can show is that there is no activities normally associated with the Second Coming in 1thessalonians4:13-18, and tie the changing of the living, and the coming of Jesus in that passage as being his coming in John 14 for believers regarding the mansions in heaven.

When the Apostle Paul wrote the 1st letter to the Thessalonians, there were no chapters or verses in his letter.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
(The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.)

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(This places the event at the end of chapter 4 on the Day of the Lord when He comes as a thief in the night, found in 2nd Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15, which are clearly Second Coming passages.)

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
(The reference to "sleep" in this verse ties chapter 5 to the dead in-Christ who "sleep" in chapter 4.)

We are gathered at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming, based on the clear text of this passage.
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