Paul's limited understanding!

[HebrewVaquero]

I'm pretty much through after that, Paul's Gospel of Grace IS what Christianity is about and those who throw him under the bus I want no part of their thinking and I strongly suggest anyone else who rejects Paul rejects the Grace of God and that rejection has one the center of their salvation and not Jesus himself.

Nothing but the Doctinal Parroting of modern christianity. From your posts it is evident you haven't studied this matter yourself.

God gave you His words, which have been handed down and protected at great cost,

God gave you His Spirit who leads into all truth at great cost.

Yet you choose to listen to the doctrines of men?

 

[Strong in Him]

No, but close. Jeremiah 31:34.

Jesus' blood was the blood of the NEW covenant which was shed for the forgiveness of sins.

What changed? Are you saying now we have Lawlessness?

Nothing changed. Jesus fulfilled the law for the Jews.

The law said that the Israelites had to offer animals - a perfect goat or lamb - for the forgiveness of sins; Jesus is the Lamb of God (John 1:29; 1 Peter 1:19) who takes away the sins of the world.
The law said that they had to abstain from doing, touching and eating certain things, in order to show that they were holy; Jesus said that if he went to the Father he would send his Holy Spirit who would live in us. The NT says that the Holy Spirit is transforming, and will transform, us into Jesus' image and likeness, (though you may not accept that teaching as it comes from Paul.)
The law said that the Israelites were to hold certain feasts - Tabernacles, Passover and maybe others- to remember the time that they were rescued from slavery and death in Egypt; Jesus ate a final Passover meal with his friends before his death and said 'do this in memory of me'. He was the spotless lamb of God, 1 Peter 1:19-20, our Passover lamb who was sacrificed for us, 1 Corinthians 5:7. He has rescued us from slavery to sin and eternal death by taking our sins upon himself. He is the Good Shepherd who lay down his life for his sheep, John 10:11.
God gave 10 commandments to Moses. The first 5 of these are about our relationship with God; the second 5 are about our relationship with our neighbour. Jesus said that these commandments can be summed up in 2 commandments - to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbour as yourself. He taught us to put God first; to seek his kingdom first, Matthew 6:33. He told us to treat others as we would like to be treated, and gave us a new commandment, to love as he loves us.

Sure, if we follow the Spirit we will keep the Law, but there are those who teach if you follow the Spirit you can break the Law because the Law has been abolished.
This ^ isn't what Jesus taught!

No, he said the law had been fulfilled - by him - not abolished.
But he didn't tell Gentiles they needed to believe in him, be forgiven by him, receive eternal life from him and then go and keep the Jewish law.

 

[Wgw]

If you think I reject Paul, you've been reading my posts with the same preciseness you read the Scriptures with.

Oh, and what level of precision would that be?

 

[Wgw]

There are number of sources. To quote a few:

Opposition to Paul from the Jerusalem Church
After the incident at Antioch, the historical evidence shows that the Jerusalem Church, headed by the pillars (James, Peter and John) sent out missionaries of their own to combat the teachings of Paul. Thus the people who were most familiar with the teachings of the earthly Jesus-his brother (James) and the apostles (e.g. Peter and John)- openly opposed Paul's mission and his version of the gospel.

I have seen this argument before; however, there is no actual evidence in support of it. Thus, one person made the asinine claim that Simon Magus described in Acts was intended as a cipher for St. Paul, which would require Luke to have engaged in mind-boggling obscurity. The suspension of disbelief required to believe the version of history provided there is roughly equivalent to that required to assume that one is a reincarnation of Napoleon Bonaparte.

Apostle Thomas who came to India came with only Hebrew version of the Gospel according to Matthew and so on......

Ah, now here, you made a grace tactical error, in that I am a member of the same Syriac Orthodox Church that encompasses the St. Thomas Christians of India. And they use precosely the same Gospels as everyone else. To the very limited extent that the four Gospels were not used in Syriac Christianity, the Diatessaron, a fourth century gospel harmony attributed to Tatian, was used.

There are no extant copies of a Hebrew or non-Syriac Aramaic original Gospel of Matthew, (there are some translations), and no one in the Indian church knowa anything about it; on the other hand, St. Paul is universally accepted by the Indian Christians and always has been.

Trinity concept is a brain child of the Gentiles!

How do you define "Gentile"? Is salvation only for the Jews in your book?

 

[HebrewVaquero]

Oh, and what level of precision would that be?

About the same as you.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[Righttruth]

So he had a disagreement with a friend and they parted company, instead of working together when they didn't gwet on. Not quite the same as, starting, or contributing to, the divisions within the church.

As a result of Paul and Barnabas parting company, there were now two missionary teams and twice as many people to spread the Gospel.

Claiming one for Jews and another for Gentiles is not the commandment of Jesus. That was Paul's invention! You seem to have missed the point that they parted company with heated arguments. There is only one God and one Son. Division is a sign of satanic work!

If it's not stated in Scripture, we can't know for sure.
Everyone interprets, and sees, things differently.

Writings don't include everything. That is why Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. He will always remind us of His teaching. Jesus never said to rely on bunch of selected writings to know His way, life and truth. Canon is man-made. It had the worst beginning with Marcion who retained only Paul's writings discarding all others! Scripture is not for private interpretation. Now professional people are involved for their livelihood and to raise their families!

It seems that either you don't trust Paul or have reason to disbelieve him, so as far as I can see, your interpreting all his actions in the light of that - unfavourably.

I always consider Paul's writings when they complement the Gospel. His assumptions are ignored. John calls all those who self-claim as apostles as liars in Revelation.

As I see it, Paul wasn't perfect - no one is - but I trust the things that he wrote about God, the Gospel, the cross, the resurrection and the Holy Spirit. I also completely trust that same Holy Spirit who inspire Paul to write, inspired the other apostles to circulate and preserve his letters and inspired the church to later include them in the New Testament which, together with the Old Testament, makes up our Bible. To me, if someone questions Paul's writings, doubts them or straight out rejects them as false, that is throwing doubt on the integrity of the Holy Spirit and on his ability to preserve the word of God. If we can't trust the Bible, what can we trust?

Now Tom, Dick and Harry claim that their interpretations, sayings and writings are inspired by the Holy Spirit! We judge them by their fruits. Scholarly works are of zero value when they do not have spiritual values.

 

[Righttruth]

And yet you seem to be doubting and dissing Paul who wrote with the help, and under the inspiration of, that same Holy Spirit.

He has come up with concepts contrary to the preaching of Jesus, hence he relied on his wisdom mostly.

 

[Righttruth]

I have seen this argument before; however, there is no actual evidence in support of it. Thus, one person made the asinine claim that Simon Magus described in Acts was intended as a cipher for St. Paul, which would require Luke to have engaged in mind-boggling obscurity. The suspension of disbelief required to believe the version of history provided there is roughly equivalent to that required to assume that one is a reincarnation of Napoleon Bonaparte.

Luke was a crony of Paul, so you can expect his support to him; at the same time he was never a witness to the important part of the history he has recorded. Of course, Luke is better in his understanding than Paul who adopted short cuts!

Ah, now here, you made a grace tactical error, in that I am a member of the same Syriac Orthodox Church that encompasses the St. Thomas Christians of India. And they use precosely the same Gospels as everyone else. To the very limited extent that the four Gospels were not used in Syriac Christianity, the Diatessaron, a fourth century gospel harmony attributed to Tatian, was used.

You are speaking of later developments here.

There are no extant copies of a Hebrew or non-Syriac Aramaic original Gospel of Matthew, (there are some translations), and no one in the Indian church knowa anything about it; on the other hand, St. Paul is universally accepted by the Indian Christians and always has been.

That is how rot sets in with time!

How do you define "Gentile"? Is salvation only for the Jews in your book?

There is no distinction between Gentile and Jew now. Of course, salvation is of the Jews.

 

[Righttruth]

And yet you seem to be doubting and dissing Paul who wrote with the help, and under the inspiration of, that same Holy Spirit.

Yes, I doubt Paul when he deviates from the preaching of Jesus.

 

[Wgw]

Luke was a crony of Paul, so you can expect his support to him; at the same time he was never a witness to the important part of the history he has recorded. Of course, Luke is better in his understanding than Paul who adopted short cuts!



You are speaking of later developments here.



That is how rot sets in with time!



There is no distinction between Gentile and Jew now. Of course, salvation is of the Jews.

No, I'm not; you're the one making historically inaccurate statements about the Indian church.

 

[Righttruth]

I didn't say that the Jews were found in all nations of the world. I said that their commission was to all nations of the Jews, that is, the nations where Jews lived. Jesus told them to NOT go to the Samaritans or to the gentiles. He EXPLICITLY restricted their mission to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. But Jesus sent Paul to the gentiles and to kings and to Israel.

You need to read the book of Acts again.

You are way off the subsequent developments and responsibilities entrusted to His apostles after crucifixion and ascension. You are making a fundamental mistake in adding the word 'Jews' in the Great Commission! Why did Paul confine only to Gentiles? Did he chicken out from his responsibility conveniently?

 

[Righttruth]

No, I'm not; you're the one making historically inaccurate statements about the Indian church.

You are speaking of the history after several centuries post-Thomas' work.

 

[Wgw]

You are speaking of the history after several centuries post-Thomas' work.

No, I am speaking of the history of the Indian church from the first century. Which I daresay I know considerably more about than most people, being that I actually am Syriac Orthodox.

 

[Righttruth]

No, I am speaking of the history of the Indian church from the first century. Which I daresay I know considerably more about than most people, being that I actually am Syriac Orthodox.

Do you think apostle Thomas carried a bag containing Paul's letters that were not found in Jerusalem Church?

 

[St_Worm2]

Jesus spoke in parables that were not really understood by people. Nevertheless, He would explain to His chosen apostles. So Paul missed out many important essences in the teaching of Jesus. In a nutshell, his gospel was that Jesus was born of a woman, spent three and half years in preaching something that he was not fully aware of, crucified and risen again.

Therefore, he weaved concepts that were in reality oppose the preaching of Jesus! One example: ear tickling 'faith alone' concept based on his epistles exclusively!

Hi RT, there is always something "ear tickling" about a false Gospel, but "salvation by faith" (by which I mean a faith that results in a dramatically and permanently changed lifestyle accompanied by an overwhelming desire to please God in all that we do and say), is the Gospel according to both St. Paul and the Lord Jesus before him .. "Salvation by faith" is simply taking God at His word, trusting that the saving work that His Son accomplished on our behalf will result in the forgiveness and salvation that He promised us.

A faith that does not result in such a change however is, as St. James describes it, a "dead" faith (James 2:17). Please take note of my signature line quote by John Calvin, that "we are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"! Good works/pleasing God/moral living all flow from a heart and life changed by God. They are the "result" of true saving faith (Ephesians 2:10), but they are never the "cause" of it. They cannot be (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 3:10-12; Ephesians 2:1-3).

Here is what St. Paul says concerning salvation:

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph 2:8-9

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Rom 10:9-10

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy..." Titus 3:5​

Likewise, here's what Jesus has to say about the same subject:

"God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Jn 3:16

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." Jn 5:24

"These have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name." Jn 20:31​

There is a faith that does not save (the demons spoken of in James 2:19 are a good example of beings that possess that kind of faith), but "saving faith" ALWAYS results in the things mentioned above that accompany salvation .. or one's "claim" of being a Christian must be considered nothing more than that!

Yours and His,
David

 

[Wgw]

Do you think apostle Thomas carried a bag containing Paul's letters that were not found in Jerusalem Church?

Perhaps at some point; the letters of St. Paul were clearly well known in the Syriac church from a very early date; it seems not unreasonable to say that before St. Paul's martyrdom they had reached Edessa and the Eastern church.

 

[Hank77]

Ummm.... did I say it mentioned Paul?
Revelation 2:14 Jesus personally condemns the PRATICES taught by Paul.

The Law can save, however we are the weak link, thus the need for Jesus.

Outside of Paul NOWHERE is it written not to follow the Law (Torah, Instructions from God).

Rev 2:14 `But I have against thee a few things: That thou hast there those holding the teaching of Balaam, who did teach Balak to cast a stumbling-block before the sons of Israel, to eat idol-sacrifices, and to commit whoredom;
Rev 2:15 so hast thou, even thou, those holding the teaching of the Nicolaitans--which thing I hate.

This is referring to the Israelites being lured into idol worship and fornication as they were by the Ammonites (I believe it was). Numbers 24, 25, and 31 make references to it. Philo and Josephus wrote about it and it can be found in one of the Targums, maybe Jonathan. They got drunk on wine, worshipped Baal Peor, and renounced the Law of Moses.

Paul never taught anyone to sacrifice to idols and eat it, nor did he teach to fornicate with prostitutes. What Paul said was not to be afraid to eat the meat sold in the market place thinking that it might have been sacrificed to idols.
Do you not understand that it is the worshiping of the idol that is a sin against God, Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Meat does not become magical and defile but the worshiping of an idol rather than Yehovah certainly will.

Claiming one for Jews and another for Gentiles is not the commandment of Jesus. That was Paul's invention! You seem to have missed the point that they parted company with heated arguments. There is only one God and one Son. Division is a sign of satanic work!

They had one disagreement. John Mark had left them in the past so Paul didn't want to rely on him again. Barnabus, who I'm sure loved and felt a family obligation to his sister's son John Mark, did want to bring him along. Neither man could change their minds and so the parted ways, Barnabus and Mark, Paul and Silas. They went different directions checking on the churches already established and preaching. There is no indication that they parted enemies or that one would go to the Jews and one to the Gentiles. So I'm not sure just what you are referring.

I always consider Paul's writings when they complement the Gospel. His assumptions are ignored. John calls all those who self-claim as apostles as liars in Revelation.

Why would you even consider Paul at all if you believe him to be a liar?

Why did Paul confine only to Gentiles? Did he chicken out from his responsibility conveniently?

He didn't. Everywhere he went his first preaching was at the Jewish synagogues. They beat him so badly one time that they left him in a ditch for dead having thrown him out of the city, the disciples prayed for him and he got up and went back into the city. Some chicken.
Act 17:1 And having passed through Amphipolis, and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was the synagogue of the Jews,
Act 17:2 and according to the custom of Paul, he went in unto them, and for three sabbaths he was reasoning with them from the Writings,
Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately, through the night, sent forth both Paul and Silas to Berea, who having come, went to the synagogue of the Jews;

Act 14:19 And there came thither, from Antioch and Iconium, Jews, and they having persuaded the multitudes, and having stoned Paul, drew him outside of the city, having supposed him to be dead;
Act 14:20 and the disciples having surrounded him, having risen he entered into the city, and on the morrow he went forth with Barnabas to Derbe.

Are you just throwing spaghetti at a wall to see what sticks? Maybe I misunderstood you?

Rom 9:1 Truth I say in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing testimony with me in the Holy Spirit,
Rom 9:2 that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart--
Rom 9:3 for I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ--for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh,
Rom 9:4 who are Israelites, whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises,
Rom 9:5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Nothing but the Doctinal Parroting of modern christianity. From your posts it is evident you haven't studied this matter yourself.

Yet you choose to listen to the doctrines of men?

Excuse me??? Your denomination's practices are substantially divergent from historic Christianity. With as much respect as is possible under the circumstances, I don't think a Messianic should lecture others about "doctrines of men".

 

[Righttruth]

Hi RT, there is always something "ear tickling" about a false Gospel, but "salvation by faith" (by which I mean a faith that results in a dramatically and permanently changed lifestyle accompanied by an overwhelming desire to please God in all that we do and say), is the Gospel

Right, but many believe in 'by faith alone'!

according to both St. Paul and the Lord Jesus before him .. "Salvation by faith" is simply taking God at His word, trusting that the saving work that His Son accomplished on our behalf will result in the forgiveness and salvation that He promised us.

This is where we are taken off the road to salvation with a self-deceptive doctrine based on Paul's piece-wise verses! We should strive to become perfect (holy), and only who endures till the end will be saved. One has to work out salvation with fear and trembling.

A faith that does not result in such a change however is, as St. James describes it, a "dead" faith (James 2:17). Please take note of my signature line quote by John Calvin, that "we are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"! Good works/pleasing God/moral living all flow from a heart and life changed by God. They are the "result" of true saving faith (Ephesians 2:10), but they are never the "cause" of it. They cannot be (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 3:10-12; Ephesians 2:1-3).

In agreement.

Here is what St. Paul says concerning salvation:

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph 2:8-9

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Rom 10:9-10

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy..." Titus 3:5​

These verses are considered separately and interpreted favorably to own's destruction! ​

Likewise, here's what Jesus has to say about the same subject:

"God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Jn 3:16

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." Jn 5:24

"These have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name." Jn 20:31​

You forget this:

John 15:
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Without fruit, no salvation!​

There is a faith that does not save (the demons spoken of in James 2:19 are a good example of beings that possess that kind of faith), but "saving faith" ALWAYS results in the things mentioned above that accompany salvation .. or one's "claim" of being a Christian must be considered nothing more than that!

Agreed, in conformity with Jesus' words above.

 

[Righttruth]

Perhaps at some point; the letters of St. Paul were clearly well known in the Syriac church from a very early date; it seems not unreasonable to say that before St. Paul's martyrdom they had reached Edessa and the Eastern church.

Corruption starts very early! Ungodly Gentiles grabbed the compromise formulas offered by Paul right from the beginning! No doubt Paul felt at home with them!