• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Did the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday?

Meowzltov

Freylekher Yid
Aug 3, 2014
18,647
4,483
64
Southern California
✟68,393.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Others
Did you mean to post instead Matthew 23:2-3 ?
If you did....
There is a very important variant in the Shem Tov which allows the passage to be understood correctly as basically says; 'do as they say (when teaching Torah) but not as they do'.
The verses you gave, Matt 23:1-3, ALSO speak to keeping the Ooral Torah, since Jesus says to do and observe ALL that they teach (not just the Torah, but ALL that they teach, including the Oral Torah). But I was referring yes to Matthew 23:23 where Jesus tells them to get the basics of the Torah, AND keep the Oral Torah as well. The specific tax of mint dill and cumin are an Oral Law.
 
Upvote 0

HebrewVaquero

Active Member
Nov 22, 2015
355
61
✟828.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
The verses you gave, Matt 23:1-3, ALSO speak to keeping the Ooral Torah, since Jesus says to do and observe ALL that they teach (not just the Torah, but ALL that they teach, including the Oral Torah). But I was referring yes to Matthew 23:23 where Jesus tells them to get the basics of the Torah, AND keep the Oral Torah as well. The specific tax of mint dill and cumin are an Oral Law.

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

This is a passage that Catholics are likely to quote in support of Tradition, saying it is the only verse in the Bible that mentions Moses' Seat.

On the face of it, it appears to be supporting the authority of the Scribes and Pharisees to teach orally to the people. The Scribes, who were educated in reading and writing, presented themselves as the great authorities on interpreting scripture, while the Pharisees were the spokesmen for the unwritten oral law or tradition. Let's take a closer look at what this passage is saying in context-

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

What is this referring to? In a symbolic sense, sitting in Moses' seat means teaching from the books of Moses, the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible:

Exo 18:13 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.
Exo 18:14 And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
Exo 18:15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to inquire of God:
Exo 18:16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.

So while the phrase need not indicate a literal chair, archeologists have confirmed that a stone chair has been found in ancient synagogues (in Hamath, Chorazin, En-Gedi and Delos) next to where the law was kept. When reading from scripture, the reader would apparently sit in that chair and read the law to the congregation in judgment.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

The reader (in this case a scribe or Pharisee) would exhort the people to be keepers of the law of Moses, obviously. Jesus here is saying that what ever scripture (Moses' seat) they read from and bid the people to observe, that the people should observe. That supports the principle of Sola Scriptura, not unbiblical Tradition. Catholics would have you believe that being in "Moses' seat" gave one the authority to proclaim anything at all, scriptural or not, and the people would have to obey the one in Moses' seat as though God Himself had spoken every word. But note that the scribes and Pharisees themselves are branded here as nothing more than hypocrites. They piously read from the scriptures, but did not observe and carry out what the scriptures said, and Jesus tells the people not to follow their example. Yet Catholics will suggest that this type of person was to be strictly obeyed in whateverunscriptural proclamation they made despite their hypocrisy.

(From a Biblelight article; Moses' Seat - Does It Support Tradition?)
 
  • Like
Reactions: BukiRob
Upvote 0

BukiRob

Newbie
Dec 14, 2012
2,809
1,007
Columbus, Ohio
✟68,075.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Fair enough.
However I'm with Peter on this;
Paul is difficult to understand.
My goal is to get though all the easy things to understand then tackle the more difficult things,
I'm not though the easy ones yet, lol.
Amen.... Paul can easily be distorted to teach doctrine that Paul did NOT believe... namely that the Torah was done away with
 
  • Like
Reactions: HebrewVaquero
Upvote 0

HebrewVaquero

Active Member
Nov 22, 2015
355
61
✟828.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Amen.... Paul can easily be distorted to teach doctrine that Paul did NOT believe... namely that the Torah was done away with
Yes, I've fought, struggled, contorted texts, read historical context. Although Paul says some awesome things, trying to believe everything he said is the Word of God is a wearisome endeavor.
 
Upvote 0

HebrewVaquero

Active Member
Nov 22, 2015
355
61
✟828.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Perhaps one can ask workers to work on weekends and allowable by the bible
No, that is oral tradition to allow the heathen among to do your work on the Sabbath, however Torah says there is ONE law for both Jew and the sojourner among you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BukiRob
Upvote 0

Meowzltov

Freylekher Yid
Aug 3, 2014
18,647
4,483
64
Southern California
✟68,393.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Others
Odd how sabbathterians say they can't work on Saturday and yet go to restaurants to pay a cook to work thier steaks and fry their fries.
I don't. I don't conduct any business on the Shabbat. I don't even carry money on my person. We are not to allow are servants or even our animals work for us.

You have to cut people a break who are attempting to keep the Shabbat but haven't thought it through all the way. Many times they are trying to just go "Bible only" and never bother to check out the traditions greater minds through the years have come up with, including the real obvious stuff. They make up their own traditions. But they are giving it a shot, and considering that they are doing this out of love for the Lord, I say kudos to them.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Meowzltov

Freylekher Yid
Aug 3, 2014
18,647
4,483
64
Southern California
✟68,393.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Others
What is this referring to? In a symbolic sense, sitting in Moses' seat means teaching from the books of Moses, the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible:
Verse 3 explains what "Moses' seat" means: THEREFORE DO AND OBSERVE **ALL** THAT THEY TEACH. They also teach the oral law, so that means do and observe the oral Torah as well. It hearkens back to Deuteronomy 17:8-13, where the judges are given authority to rule on case law, and by authority I mean real teeth, DEATH SENTENCE for anyone who questions them -- that basically makes their rulings equal in authority to Torah itself. It is the origins of Oral Torah. While the judges were originally the 70 elders that Moses appointed, they eventually came to be the Rabbis, who were the most learned in the Law.

There is simply NO WAY you can get Sola Scriptura out of this passage without butchering what 'ALL' means.
 
Upvote 0

tulipbee

Worker of the Hive
Apr 27, 2006
2,835
297
✟25,849.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
No, that is oral tradition to allow the heathen among to do your work on the Sabbath, however Torah says there is ONE law for both Jew and the sojourner among you.
Does that mean the fire department, hospitals etc should have sabbath off?
 
Upvote 0

HebrewVaquero

Active Member
Nov 22, 2015
355
61
✟828.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Verse 3 explains what "Moses' seat" means: THEREFORE DO AND OBSERVE **ALL** THAT THEY TEACH. They also teach the oral law, so that means do and observe the oral Torah as well. It hearkens back to Deuteronomy 17:8-13, where the judges are given authority to rule on case law, and by authority I mean real teeth, DEATH SENTENCE for anyone who questions them -- that basically makes their rulings equal in authority to Torah itself. It is the origins of Oral Torah. While the judges were originally the 70 elders that Moses appointed, they eventually came to be the Rabbis, who were the most learned in the Law.

There is simply NO WAY you can get Sola Scriptura out of this passage without butchering what 'ALL' means.
Torah is taught from the seat of Moses, it is where the Law was read. The seat of Moses is not for Talmudic teaching.
You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to see why Catholics and Rabbinic Jews want this verse to mean the opposite.
 
Upvote 0

HebrewVaquero

Active Member
Nov 22, 2015
355
61
✟828.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Not work on Sat or not work on sun or sabbath can be any once a week. Which
The waxing 1/2 moon is a sabbath
7 days later....
The full moon is a sabbath
7 days later...
The waning 1/2 moon is a sabbath
7 days later...
The moon dark moon is a sabbath
1 or 2 moon days....
The month resets and the cycle starts over.

Do you think Abraham and Sarah had a calendar from the local bakery hanging in their tent?
 
Upvote 0

tulipbee

Worker of the Hive
Apr 27, 2006
2,835
297
✟25,849.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The waxing 1/2 moon is a sabbath
7 days later....
The full moon is a sabbath
7 days later...
The waning 1/2 moon is a sabbath
7 days later...
The moon dark moon is a sabbath
1 or 2 moon days....
The month resets and the cycle starts over.

Do you think Abraham and Sarah had a calendar from the local bakery hanging in their tent?
So it's not always the weekend, right?
 
Upvote 0

HebrewVaquero

Active Member
Nov 22, 2015
355
61
✟828.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
So it's not always the weekend, right?
Right.
It starting changing from the lunar to Saturday after the Jews where exiled to Babylon, Constantine cinched it when he forbade Saturday to be honored changing it to Sunday.
The last sabbath was Friday and the next will be Friday but when the Gregorian month changes it usually changes days of the week.
 
Upvote 0

PattyOfurniture

Senior Member
Aug 15, 2007
1,010
73
Florida
✟24,224.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Torah is taught from the seat of Moses, it is where the Law was read. The seat of Moses is not for Talmudic teaching.
You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to see why Catholics and Rabbinic Jews want this verse to mean the opposite.

Agreed HV, not to mention Yeshua (Jesus) seems to have spent half his time refuting and rebuking what they 'taught' in general.

At first blush the verse makes absolutely no sense at all (and has always bothered me), unless you're right about what was taught from the Seat and/or what Karaite Jew Nehemia Gordon has to say about it, which is pretty interesting actually.

Gordon claims an ancient manuscript of Matthew in Hebrew translated reads:
"The Pharisees and sages sit upon the seat of Moses. Therefore, all that he (Moses) says to you, diligently do, but according to their reforms (takanot) and their precedents (ma‘asim) do not do, because they talk but do not do."

I myself am still looking into this and not totally convinced but that translation makes a lot of sense, this is a blog post I found that goes into detail on this..
 
Upvote 0

HebrewVaquero

Active Member
Nov 22, 2015
355
61
✟828.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Agreed HV, not to mention Yeshua (Jesus) seems to have spent half his time refuting and rebuking what they 'taught' in general.

At first blush the verse makes absolutely no sense at all (and has always bothered me), unless you're right about what was taught from the Seat and/or what Karaite Jew Nehemia Gordon has to say about it, which is pretty interesting actually.

Gordon claims an ancient manuscript of Matthew in Hebrew translated reads:
"The Pharisees and sages sit upon the seat of Moses. Therefore, all that he (Moses) says to you, diligently do, but according to their reforms (takanot) and their precedents (ma‘asim) do not do, because they talk but do not do."

I myself am still looking into this and not totally convinced but that translation makes a lot of sense, this is a blog post I found that goes into detail on this..
I think he might be referring to the Shem Tov manuscript? If so it is written in Hebrew by a Spanish Jew to refute Christianity during the Spanish Expulsion. The Gospel was included in the appendix of the book.
(Since the Iron Curtian came down, 28 copies of a Hebrew Matthew have been collected).
Scholars are fairly sure this is not a back translation from Latin or Greek because the idioms and word play only make sense in Hebrew.
 
Upvote 0

PattyOfurniture

Senior Member
Aug 15, 2007
1,010
73
Florida
✟24,224.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I think he might be referring to the Shem Tov manuscript? If so it is written in Hebrew by a Spanish Jew to refute Christianity during the Spanish Expulsion. The Gospel was included in the appendix of the book.
(Since the Iron Curtian came down, 28 copies of a Hebrew Matthew have been collected).
Scholars are fairly sure this is not a back translation from Latin or Greek because the idioms and word play only make sense in Hebrew.

Yeah man I see that would be it and like you alluded to, in Greek or Latin (or English) the phrasing leaves a lot to be desired unless you take into account Hebrew idioms.
Any way you slice it, IMO there is no way the Messiah was teaching us to follow the Pharisees 'Traditions of Men' that were 'laying aside the Commandments of God' as He put it. I can't even wrap my head around how any "follower of Christ" could go there, weird.
 
Upvote 0