Did the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday?

[BobRyan]

I have shown that in their claim to have changed it - they offer some irrefutable evidence. The fact that there is no Bible text for doing so and the fact that those who follow the Catholic example in this regard are being inconsistent to claim they will test all doctrine and practice "sola scriptura" yet will bend/edit/break the Law of God based solely on the say-so of the Catholic church.

notice the "details" in their claim - and even Bob S does not attempt to prove them wrong

==============================
Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!!

Here Pope John Paul argues two points in his document "Dies Domini"

1. That the TEN Commandments (all TEN... not just NINE ) still remain. What does that mean about the SABBATH Commandment? gone - or remains? or bent to point to??

2. In the second quote John Paul II Refers to the OT Sabbath as the LORD's Day -

Pope John Paul II

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================



In these quotes we see "TEN Commandments" and "DECALOGUE" not "630"

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.


these Catholic Catechism statements seem to support what John Paul II and what "The Faith Explained" have said in their two points above --

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.[/QUOTE]


Key question:

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

 

[Bob S]

notice the "details" in their claim - and even Bob S does not attempt to prove them wrong

==============================
Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!!

Here Pope John Paul argues two points in his document "Dies Domini"

1. That the TEN Commandments (all TEN... not just NINE ) still remain. What does that mean about the SABBATH Commandment? gone - or remains? or bent to point to??

2. In the second quote John Paul II Refers to the OT Sabbath as the LORD's Day -


Pope John Paul II

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================



In these quotes we see "TEN Commandments" and "DECALOGUE" not "630"

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.


these Catholic Catechism statements seem to support what John Paul II and what "The Faith Explained" have said in their two points above --

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.

Key question:

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??[/QUOTE]
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
We should care less what ellen wrote, what the papacy wrote or what some protestants wrote. What does the Bible tell us? It tells is that not one jot or one tittle would pass from the law, the law would not change in any way, until all is finished. It tells us that the 10 commandments were temporary and now we are under the guidance of the holy Spirit. This document by Paul tell us us that indeed the old law of Sabbaths and all the rituals were finished. How else could He have written that we are no longer under the 10 commandments 2Cor3:7-11? How else could he have written Gal 3 and Col 2:17?

Lets get serious, answer those questions honestly.

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

No it wasn't the Catholic Church, this happened before the church split into East and west.

The sabbath was out lawes in the late 3rd century AD

 

[BukiRob]

The commandment is to not kindle a flame. It does not give an exception if it is easy, like if you have a magnifying glass. Driving a car uses an electric spark -- the Orthodox Jews consider causing an electric spark kindling a flame but Conservatives disagree. Turning on a stove or oven certainly kindles a flame. Besides, cooking is work all by itself. Sorry buddy. Fortunately we can use flames that automatically come on and off, like heaters.

You can also cook up a big Sabbath feast before Sundown and eat it after Sundown, and then you have great leftovers on Saturday. The Challah makes great French Toast on Sunday. In Orthodox homes, they leave a very low flame burning, either a hot plate or a burner on the stove or in the oven, ALL SABBATH LONG to keep food warm for Saturday. You can also use a crock pot, start it on low before Sundown with extra water, and you'll have the most wonderful hot dishes on Saturday.

Personally, now that the kids are grown, it's not worth it to me to cook a Shabbat meal for one on Friday, so I just eat sandwiches, deviled eggs, chumus and pita, and other cold meals throughout Shabbat.


Actually these are several separate actions, all separate from kindling a flame and all of which violate the Shabbat. You have reaping, selecting/sorting, carrying, and cutting(chopping). Again, each of these is a separate violation; they are not part of kindling a flame.

The Melachot (labors that violate the Sabbath) are based on what was done to build the tabernacle, since all work on the tabernacle ceased on the Sabbath. Some of these, such as carrying and cutting, are considered okay within the home, as they are necessary for child care and food preparation.

You should have stopped at "Orthodox Jews"

 

[BobRyan]

In this next post we find a lot of Catholic sources quoted
=============================
QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68990737, member: 235244"]notice the "details" in their claim - and even Bob S does not attempt to prove them wrong

==============================
Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!!

Here Pope John Paul argues two points in his document "Dies Domini"

1. That the TEN Commandments (all TEN... not just NINE ) still remain. What does that mean about the SABBATH Commandment? gone - or remains? or bent to point to??

2. In the second quote John Paul II Refers to the OT Sabbath as the LORD's Day -

Pope John Paul II

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================



In these quotes we see "TEN Commandments" and "DECALOGUE" not "630"

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.


these Catholic Catechism statements seem to support what John Paul II and what "The Faith Explained" have said in their two points above --

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.[/QUOTE]


Key question:

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??
==========================================================================

Key
____
We should care less what ellen wrote,

Blaming all those Catholic source quotes on Ellen White is not even remotely serious -

Lets get serious, answer those questions honestly.

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================

If you can disprove their claim that the Bible is not the source for the change - then do so.

if not -- why keep blaming Ellen White for every Bible text and Catholic source quote you see that does not fit your bias??

 

[BukiRob]

Nope

Yep

 

[Meowzltov]

Not true - the fire in the temple was continuous and was continued on Sabbath - "kindling a flame" was more difficult. Winters in Palestine were cold enough for them to be using a fire at the time of Christ's trial. They had fires for cold nights. But they would not 'kindle a flame'

You are correct. There is no prohibition on keeping flames burning that were lit before shabbos. The prohibition is on kindling them. It is a creative act. Kindling a flame was used for building the tabernacle. Trust me, I spent years studying halakha, I'm pretty sure I've at least learned the basics of keeping the shabbat.

 

[Meowzltov]

2. In the second quote John Paul II Refers to the OT Sabbath as the LORD's Day -

Yes, but in terms of the SOLEMNITY ONLY. That's the part you don't want to accept.

 

[Meowzltov]

You should have stopped at "Orthodox Jews"

Why? You have to admit that no one has spent as much time trying to figure out how to observe the Sabbath as the Jews. It's worth listening to their reasoning.

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

Jesus even in death kept the sabbath, he died on good Friday, went to I don't know where on Saturday, raised back to life on easter Sunday. Hallelujah

 

[BobRyan]

You are correct. There is no prohibition on keeping flames burning that were lit before shabbos. The prohibition is on kindling them.

Indeed - I watched a reality TV show once that dealt with survival in the wild "man woman vs wild" I think it was called. And each program the man would try to show some new way to "kindle a flame" -- well - that was often hours of "hard work" in most cases.

 

[BobRyan]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68990737, member: 235244"]notice the "details" in their claim - and even Bob S does not attempt to prove them wrong

==============================
Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!!

Here Pope John Paul argues two points in his document "Dies Domini"

1. That the TEN Commandments (all TEN... not just NINE ) still remain. What does that mean about the SABBATH Commandment? gone - or remains? or bent to point to??

2. In the second quote John Paul II Refers to the OT Sabbath as the LORD's Day -

Pope John Paul II

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

=============================================

Key question:

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

1. To say that the 7th day has lost all of its solemnity - deleted by man made tradition. ... is that a "Change" - in legal terms to that command?

2. To say that the 7th day has its solemnity TRANSFERRED to another - day such that the 7th day no longer has that solemnity - rather some other day has it. Is that a "CHANGE" to the commandment? Or does it remain as solemn, binding, obligatory as ever when it loses all of its solemnity by having it transferred to another day!

Yes, but in terms of the SOLEMNITY ONLY. That's the part you don't want to accept.

I am not at all convinced that we are as far apart on that particular point as you seem to claim.

 

[BobRyan]

​

Catholic Ten Commandments

1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
4. Honor your father and your mother
5. You shall not kill
6. You shall not commit adultery
7. You shall not steal
8. You shall not bear false witness
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
10.You shall not covet your neighbor's goods

Is it your claim that "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" is the SAME thing as "Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day" -- or is it your claim that Catholics CHANGED that commandment to say something else?

 

[Bob S]

I will gladly reply to your questions after you reply to my last post. Please give a reason, if you are able, that my thoughts are wrong or just admit you cannot. Fair enough?

We should care less what ellen wrote, what the papacy wrote or what some protestants wrote. What does the Bible tell us? It tells is that not one jot or one tittle would pass from the law, the law would not change in any way, until all was finished. 2Cor3:7-11 tells us that the 10 commandments were temporary (how could they have been temporary unless Jesus finished the old laws?) and now we are under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This document by Paul tell us us that indeed the old law of Sabbaths and all the rituals were finished. How else could he have written Gal 3 and Col 2:17?

 

[BukiRob]

You are correct. There is no prohibition on keeping flames burning that were lit before shabbos. The prohibition is on kindling them. It is a creative act. Kindling a flame was used for building the tabernacle. Trust me, I spent years studying halakha, I'm pretty sure I've at least learned the basics of keeping the shabbat.

Hence conceptually there is no difference between starting a car by turning a key, pressing a button to turn on an oven, flipping a light switch....

The purpose which is the critical concept is to not engage in WORK

 

[BukiRob]

Why? You have to admit that no one has spent as much time trying to figure out how to observe the Sabbath as the Jews. It's worth listening to their reasoning.

Because they as far back as the time of Messiah supplanted their own traditions over the decree's of G-d. Those are not my accusations but they are those of the Messiah himself

 

[Meowzltov]

Indeed - I watched a reality TV show once that dealt with survival in the wild "man woman vs wild" I think it was called. And each program the man would try to show some new way to "kindle a flame" -- well - that was often hours of "hard work" in most cases.

Really? Like what was he doing? I only know of three ways: flint, rubbing a stick, and magnifying glass.

 

[Meowzltov]

Hence conceptually there is no difference between starting a car by turning a key, pressing a button to turn on an oven, flipping a light switch....

Well, I don't accept that electricity is fire. But yes, my oven uses a flame. Turning a switch kindles a flame. I don't use my oven on Shabbat.

 

[Meowzltov]

Because they as far back as the time of Messiah supplanted their own traditions over the decree's of G-d. Those are not my accusations but they are those of the Messiah himself

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for two things. The first was their hypocrisy -- no practicing what they were preaching. The second was getting their priorities wrong; they were obeying their traditions but not the basics of the Torah, and Jesus told them to do BOTH (Matthew 23:23).

Neither of those objections means that we shouldn't give heed to their scholarship of Torah. Actually in Matthew 23:1-3 Jesus says they sit on the seat of Moses (teach with authority).

 

[BobRyan]

Really? Like what was he doing? I only know of three ways: flint, rubbing a stick, and magnifying glass.

Flint and magnifying glass are clearly the fastest - but how often are you suddenly stranded - and just-so happen to have a magnifying glass or flint on hand? I can't remember all the ones he showed - but he had several variations of the "rubbing two sticks" thing -- one of which has to do with drilling a hole in a piece of wood with a knife then getting the point of another stick to spin in the whole until you get enough friction for the kindling in the whole to ignite.