Are we born as atheists, or are we born as believers?

[aiki]

You don't have 'god's word'. You have words you've imagined to be 'god's', which you cannot substantiate in any meaningful fashion whatsoever.

Obviously, I disagree. I am just as certain (or more so) that I do have God's Word as you are certain I do not. And I can and have substantiated that claim many times in a "meaningful way."

Selah.

 

[AnonymousRain]

What's the default position?

I'd say that what with all the religions perspective as to what a god is defined as, we're born atheist. Having no concept of god.

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

What's the default position?

In "A Brief History of Everything" Ken Wilber says that newborns are narcissists and see everything as an extension of their own selves. In other words, the default position is that there is your own self and nothing else. Then the process of differentiating and transcending begins, Wilber says. An infant bites a chair. It does not hurt. He bites his hand. It hurts. He differentiates between his own self and the chair.

At evolutionary stages the self transcends and includes after differentiating. Transcends what it was at the previous stage and keeps the good parts of it for the next stage. Later stages include where one differentiates between self and his/her group/culture and goes from an ethnocentric view to a worldcentric view. A stage after that is where one becomes an existentialist, but I forget how he describes that.

Makes more sense than 90% of the responses in this thread so far.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Well, humans deceive themselves about all sorts of things.

Again, your naked assertion is predicated on information only one person in the universe has access to. That person is not you. Nor is it Paul.

If a self-professed 'psychic' said to me 'you were just now thinking of celery!', and I wasn't, I would know for certain that person does not possess the mind-reading powers they pretend to.

That is what you sound like right now. Except your claim is even dumber.

Atheism is a prime example.

Maybe someday you'll be able to formulate an argument to that effect that doesn't completely blow up in your face.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Obviously, I disagree. I am just as certain (or more so) that I do have God's Word as you are certain I do not. And I can and have substantiated that claim many times in a "meaningful way.

No you haven't. I've challenged you in the past to outline a reliable means of gleaning the information you pretend to possess. You never even attempted.

Not that I expected you to. All religion is ontologically and epistemologically vacuous.

 

[SnowyMacie]

None of the above, a newborn baby is not really capable of belief in a God nor a lack of belief in God. They're pretty much concerned with eating and feeling connection...and not much else.

 

[Davian]

Back to the topic: Humans are predisposed toward "faith."
Granted: This may have to do with how little ability humans
have to survive on their own at birth. They learn to "have faith"
in "others" early on.

If you want to play the equivocation game.

Children that did not listen to their parents when told not to go down to the river where the alligators might get them quite often were taken out of the gene pool. The more easily convinced individuals became our ancestors.

That religion hijacks this aspect of human nature in no way validates the beliefs that may arise from it.

 

[Davian]

According to the Bible, all people are born with an innate sense of the existence of their Creator. (Ro. 1:18-20)

Selah.

If I were inventing a religion, that would be just the sort of thing that I would include.

Declare that the existence of <insert deity's name here> is self-evident, that such evidence is plainly seen. What of those that don't see it? Tell 'em it's invisible!

Don't forget to vilify the sceptics; write down that they actually believe, but are lying about not believing, because of that earlier self-evident bit.

It's not like a religious text need comport with observations of reality.

 

[Davian]

Well, this "disproof" relies entirely upon your word, which I have no good reason to accept as true - especially when it contradicts God's Word. To put it very plainly, when you and the Word of God disagree, I will always trust the Bible over you.

Selah.

It has been my experience here that there is no position, however contrary to another, that someone cannot find support for in the Bible.

 

[Davian]

Of course not. A newborn has little cognizance of anything. But I think by seven or eight years of age a child may have some inkling of a "higher power" and certainly by the teen years one's innate sense of God's existence is in full bloom.

Selah.

To my teenagers, gods are only characters in books.

 

[Davian]

Well, humans deceive themselves about all sorts of things. Atheism is a prime example.

Selah.

Belief is not a conscious choice.

However, I do wonder what you think an atheist might have deceived themselves about.

I mean, how could they possibly think that this "something" which is, in every objective measure to date, indisctingushable from the imaginary, that is it only imaginary?

 

[Locutus]

But I think by seven or eight years of age a child may have some inkling of a "higher power" and certainly by the teen years one's innate sense of God's existence is in full bloom.

Selah.

That's simply not true. I know many atheists who've not had the slightest impression/idea/suspicion/whatever that gods exist. Even those who were indoctrinated as kids stopped believing it mostly by the age of 10-12. I personally, have never had anything like an 'innate sense of the existence of gods', much less such a thing in 'full bloom'.

 

[Locutus]

and then some never seem to realize it at all. Like anything else, people (souls) seem to run the gamut on this issue.

'never realise it at all' reads as a slight - as though the effort to avoid indulging self-interested and comforting falsehoods is a bad thing. happy to stand corrected if I have that wrong

 

[Locutus]

Well, humans deceive themselves about all sorts of things. Atheism is a prime example.

Selah.

how about all the religious people in the world who don't subscribe to your preferred god?

 

[Locutus]

To my teenagers, gods are only characters in books.

To my teenagers, gods are similar to sci fi characters. Since any fan of sci fi will have encountered god-type entities in literature and film, religion can appear to be a sort of obsessive fandom.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

To my teenagers, gods are similar to sci fi characters. Since any fan of sci fi will have encountered god-type entities in literature and film, religion can appear to be a sort of obsessive fandom.

That's how I've looked at it for quite a while now. Except I don't even think the Bible is good fiction, so the religious are rather like murderously obsessive Twilight fans.

 

[Locutus]

That's how I've looked at it for quite a while now. Except I don't even think the Bible is good fiction, so the religious are rather like murderously obsessive Twilight fans.

That's actually not a bad comparison
And I would agree that the bible is pretty ordinary sci fi. Not nearly enough tech, no plasma conduits, and no eddies in the space-time continuum.

 

[SkyWriting]

If you want to play the equivocation game.
Children that did not listen to their parents when told not to go down to the river where the alligators might get them quite often were taken out of the gene pool. The more easily convinced individuals became our ancestors.
That religion hijacks this aspect of human nature in no way validates the beliefs that may arise from it.

Then the same goes for natural selection.

 

[SkyWriting]

And I would agree that the bible is pretty ordinary sci fi. Not nearly enough tech, no plasma conduits, and no eddies in the space-time continuum.

It makes for very poor reading fiction. That's always been clear to me.
For fiction, it would be quite pointless.

2 Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. 3 Judah begot Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram. 4 Ram begot Amminadab, Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon. 5 Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse, 6 and Jesse begot David the king.

David the king begot Solomon by her who had been the wife of Uriah.7 Solomon begot Rehoboam, Rehoboam begot Abijah, and Abijah begot Asa.8 Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah.9 Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah.10 Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah.11 Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon.

 

[aiki]

Again, your naked assertion is predicated on information only one person in the universe has access to. That person is not you. Nor is it Paul.

If a self-professed 'psychic' said to me 'you were just now thinking of celery!', and I wasn't, I would know for certain that person does not possess the mind-reading powers they pretend to.

That is what you sound like right now. Except your claim is even dumber.

Paul, I believe, was inspired by God to write what he did. Inasmuch as this is so, I trust what he wrote however much you strain to deny it. As I said, human beings are masters at self-deception, which is why the penetrating, and exposing, and clarifying truth of God's Word is so vital to humanity. You, sir, are suppressing the truth of God in unrighteousness just as Paul declares. Deny and ridicule as you like; it will not change the truth of God's Word one iota.

Selah.