Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[iamlamad]

You are correct. When Jesus returns He will set His feet down where He left from. When the Bible speaks of Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven - that is the Rapture. Gathering all his elect from the four corners of the earth. We will be judged, not for our sins, but for what we have done for the Kingdom and will return with Jesus at His second coming.

That is not quite what is written. If we put together what another gospel tells us, the gathering will be from one end of heaven to the other end of the earth: in other words, from both heaven and earth. This simply does not fit Paul's rapture at all. Indeed, at Paul's rapture Jesus comes (but only to the air) and the dead in Christ who are raised, and those alive who are caught up will be gathered from around this planet. The rapture then is EARTHLY, not heavenly.

New International Version
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

It would seem very unlikely God would have chosen these words for a gathering of those in Christ from around this planet. On the other hand, if God wanted to gather all of Israel back to Israel, including those who have passed on and are in heaven, this wording would fit perfectly.

 

[iamlamad]

So many things are to happen, according to the Word, in "That Day" which is the seven years of Daniel's last week that they all cannot happen in one 24 hour time period, but they all happen in "That Day".

His feet do split the Mount.
He comes with clouds.
He will be seen over Jerusalem, defending her.
He will come riding on the white horse, wearing the crown on which is written the "Name which no man knows but He, Himself" [YHWH is that Name].

Rev 19
Christ on a White Horse

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[e] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
The Beast and His Armies Defeated

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[h] 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

"they all cannot happen in one 24 hour time period, but they all happen in "That Day"."

Very good post! TRUTH. It would behoove all in this thread to read this over and over.

 

[Postvieww]

Do you imagine that God will send angels to gather up every trumpet in the universe, including heaven, and then remove even the memory of trumpets so that no trumpet would ever be created again, so that never, ever can there be another trumpet sound? That is what "last" means: NEVER ANOTHER. So are you willing to admit THIS is what you truly believe?

Paul DID NOT SAY "last in the bible." That is your wild imagination. WAKE UP! The bible did not exist when Paul wrote. He was writing a LETTER and had no idea this letter would still be being read 2000 years later. All He said was "last trump." It could mean "last in a series." It could mean "last trumpet in the church age." It could mean the "last trump" of the feast of trumpets.
One thing it COULD NOT POSSIBLY MEAN is the 7th trumpet of Revelation. They are different trumpets with different purposes. You and Postvieww seem to have this in common: if there are two words the same in two different passages, you jump on it and claim both passage are speaking of the same thing.

What it WILL BE is the last trumpet of the church age, for when it sounds, and the dead in Christ are raised, the church age is finished. (read about the door being closed in the parable of the ten virgins). The moment after the trumpet, TIME will be "day of the Lord" time. It will be a DIFFERENT DISPENSATION with different rules and for a different purpose: Judgment.

Lamad said: # 4573

Do you imagine that God will send angels to gather up every trumpet in the universe, including heaven, and then remove even the memory of trumpets so that no trumpet would ever be created again, so that never, ever can there be another trumpet sound?

No

That is what "last" means: NEVER ANOTHER. So are you willing to admit THIS is what you truly believe?

No. I like you answer below “What it WILL BE is the last trumpet of the church age” We just disagree on when that will be.

Paul DID NOT SAY "last in the bible."

No but it is the last one mentioned in the bible, he didn't say is was the last of all future ages either.

That is your wild imagination. WAKE UP! The bible did not exist when Paul wrote. He was writing a LETTER and had no idea this letter would still be being read 2000 years later. All He said was "last trump." It could mean "last in a series."

I believe it does, the last of seven.

It could mean "last trumpet in the church age."

I believe it does. Just disagree with you as to when that is.

It could mean the "last trump" of the feast of trumpets.

I believe it could be at the feast of trumpets, but if so it will be the 7th angel blowing it.

One thing it COULD NOT POSSIBLY MEAN is the 7th trumpet of Revelation. They are different trumpets with different purposes.

Let’s look at what happens at the 7th trumpet. Kingdoms of this world are handed over to Christ, the mystery is finished, the dead are judged, rewards given to the saints. Sounds a lot like the last day Jesus spoke of , the last day when the resurrection takes place.

You and Postvieww seem to have this in common: if there are two words the same in two different passages, you jump on it and claim both passage are speaking of the same thing.

Better than inserting words that are not there.

What it WILL BE is the last trumpet of the church age, for when it sounds, and the dead in Christ are raised, the church age is finished.

Amen. But you know we disagree on timing.

(read about the door being closed in the parable of the ten virgins). The moment after the trumpet, TIME will be "day of the Lord" time. It will be a DIFFERENT DISPENSATION with different rules and for a different purpose: Judgment.

We did agree on a few things in your post.

 

[iamlamad]

An analogy...

The mother and daughter sat on the front porch of their house shelling peas from their garden. Both worked quietly. There had been great sadness in the home for several weeks. It all started when their pastor came to the door with the tragic news that the husband and the father had been killed at Gettysburg. She knew her husband had fought for years in this great war that had torn the nation in half. Although it should not have been a total surprise she found herself screaming, No..., No..., No...., for what seemed like hours and then days.

The pastor had told her the husband was buried at the site of the battle and it would not be possible to visit the grave at the present time.

After several days and the comfort brought to her by her neighbors and family she had tried to resume the chores required to keep her family going.

She had spent many hours in prayer and tears since that tragic day.

Their home was located along the road that led into town. At times during the dry times of summer the dust from the dirt road covered the front porch.

The peas which came from their own garden were a tremendous blessing. They were planning to cook them for supper that night.

As the woman and her daughter worked quietly, the silence was broken when the woman said...

"Honey, that man coming here walks like your daddy."

The girl never looked up, as she thought about the man she loved so much, that was now dead.

A few minutes later the woman said...

"Honey, that man coming down the road, looks like your daddy."

The girl looked up from the pot of peas and strained her eyes toward the road.

Another couple of minutes went by and her mother screamed...

That man is your daddy!




(Mistakes had been made in the identification of some dead soldiers.)

Now do you think the woman and the girl just sat on that porch and waited for the one they loved to walk up to their house?

or...

Do you think the bond of love between them made them rush toward their loved one?

And so it shall be when He returns.

When the One who bought us with His Blood returns, we will be changed in such a way that the force of gravity will not be able to keep us from going to Him and accompanying Him back to earth.

The Greek word is "Parousia"

I hope to see you there, Brothers and Sisters.

.

You did well until you wrote this: "and accompanying Him back to earth."

You cannot find this in scripture anywhere tied to Paul's rapture. It is human reasoning.

 

[iamlamad]

One of the reasons for promoting the rapture in the late 20th century was the more irrational intellectual atmosphere of neo-orthodox liberal theology. But at the same time, many thought to be Bible-based were doing some things that were like the neos. In the case of the rapture, Trinity Broadcasting could not have launched without leveraging Lindsay's popularization of the rapture, and that explains a lot of why late 20th century Christian church's have this gaping escapism. There was supposed to be a debate with Lindsay and the owner of Trinity, vs a professor in NT background at a Bay Area university, but it was canceled by Lindsay.

As for the definition, there is definitely a quick transformation at death or the end of time in I Cor 15, but you are right, our first thought should be the deep, warm welcoming greeting, as if from a best old friend. This is ruined by pursuing too much of the sequential issues of the final day of judgement; the shorter our view of the span of these things, the more accurate. Nothing need happen over in Israel, either.

Wow! And here all the time I thought it was the HOLY SPIRIT using Luke to write that spoke of escapism. Go figure!

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad said: # 4573

Do you imagine that God will send angels to gather up every trumpet in the universe, including heaven, and then remove even the memory of trumpets so that no trumpet would ever be created again, so that never, ever can there be another trumpet sound?

No

That is what "last" means: NEVER ANOTHER. So are you willing to admit THIS is what you truly believe?

No. I like you answer below “What it WILL BE is the last trumpet of the church age” We just disagree on when that will be.

Paul DID NOT SAY "last in the bible."

No but it is the last one mentioned in the bible, he didn't say is was the last of all future ages either.

That is your wild imagination. WAKE UP! The bible did not exist when Paul wrote. He was writing a LETTER and had no idea this letter would still be being read 2000 years later. All He said was "last trump." It could mean "last in a series."

I believe it does, the last of seven.

It could mean "last trumpet in the church age."

I believe it does. Just disagree with you as to when that is.

It could mean the "last trump" of the feast of trumpets.

I believe it could be at the feast of trumpets, but if so it will be the 7th angel blowing it.

One thing it COULD NOT POSSIBLY MEAN is the 7th trumpet of Revelation. They are different trumpets with different purposes.

Let’s look at what happens at the 7th trumpet. Kingdoms of this world are handed over to Christ, the mystery is finished, the dead are judged, rewards given to the saints. Sounds a lot like the last day Jesus spoke of , the last day when the resurrection takes place.

You and Postvieww seem to have this in common: if there are two words the same in two different passages, you jump on it and claim both passage are speaking of the same thing.

Better than inserting words that are not there.

What it WILL BE is the last trumpet of the church age, for when it sounds, and the dead in Christ are raised, the church age is finished.

Amen. But you know we disagree on timing.

(read about the door being closed in the parable of the ten virgins). The moment after the trumpet, TIME will be "day of the Lord" time. It will be a DIFFERENT DISPENSATION with different rules and for a different purpose: Judgment.

We did agree on a few things in your post.

Why is it you don't recognize "the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth " as prophecy of FUTURE events?

Does "destroy them which destroy the earth" take place here? No, of course not. There are still some being destroyed at the Gog - Magog battle. Before that MANY are destroyed at the battle of Armageddon. Before that many are destroyed as the vials are poured out. Are rewards passed out here? No, they are passed out later. Are all the dead judged here? You know that the eternal dead are judged after the thousand years. In other words, if you leave this passage alone and let it stand where John put it, at the MIDPOINT of the week, this is written as PROPHECY or foretelling of future events. In short, THIS is what will happen once Satan is removed as "god of this world" and the kingdoms are transferred to Jesus Christ. I hope you understand, God is LIMITED in what He can do to or for the kingdoms of the world while they are possessed by Satan. At this point, when the 7th angel sounds, and from this point onward, there are NO LIMITATIONS! God goes all out to destroy the world and the sinners in the world.

Keep in mind, this is all in ONE VERSE. Will you put more weight on this one verse than on the rest of Revelation?

So you like "last" in the bible better - even though that was not possible in the mind of Paul when he wrote it?

 

[Short Timer]

It is your self-righteous attitude that is out of line. The scriptures are never out of line. I’m not mad, or mad at you, it is you that resorts to name calling.

Here we are post 4575, and as much of the "Truth" that has been told/written/posted, few seem to "Recognize the "Truth".

But here's what Jesus said,

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us.

This "Ghost of Jesus" that was sent to "Lead/Guide/Teach" will confirm the "Truth" whenever the "Truth" is spoke.

That's how people "Hear God" and not the person speaking/writing/posting.

Do you still want to maintain that all these different doctrines are taught/confirmed by the HG or that some don't have the "EARS" to hear the HG,

and you might be one of them????

Jesus got the same kind of arguments from Israel that is presented here, and for the same reason, we know how that turned out.

 

[Postvieww]

Why is it you don't recognize "the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth " as prophecy of FUTURE events?

Does "destroy them which destroy the earth" take place here? No, of course not. There are still some being destroyed at the Gog - Magog battle. Before that MANY are destroyed at the battle of Armageddon. Before that many are destroyed as the vials are poured out. Are rewards passed out here? No, they are passed out later. Are all the dead judged here? You know that the eternal dead are judged after the thousand years. In other words, if you leave this passage alone and let it stand where John put it, at the MIDPOINT of the week, this is written as PROPHECY or foretelling of future events. In short, THIS is what will happen once Satan is removed as "god of this world" and the kingdoms are transferred to Jesus Christ. I hope you understand, God is LIMITED in what He can do to or for the kingdoms of the world while they are possessed by Satan. At this point, when the 7th angel sounds, and from this point onward, there are NO LIMITATIONS! God goes all out to destroy the world and the sinners in the world.

Keep in mind, this is all in ONE VERSE. Will you put more weight on this one verse than on the rest of Revelation?

So you like "last" in the bible better - even though that was not possible in the mind of Paul when he wrote it?

Ok, if it as you say “prophecy of FUTURE events” what actually happens at the time of the blowing of the 7th trumpet, from the text?

 

[Postvieww]

Here we are post 4575, and as much of the "Truth" that has been told/written/posted, few seem to "Recognize the "Truth".

But here's what Jesus said,

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us.

This "Ghost of Jesus" that was sent to "Lead/Guide/Teach" will confirm the "Truth" whenever the "Truth" is spoke.

That's how people "Hear God" and not the person speaking/writing/posting.

Do you still want to maintain that all these different doctrines are taught/confirmed by the HG or that some don't have the "EARS" to hear the HG,

and you might be one of them????

Jesus got the same kind of arguments from Israel that is presented here, and for the same reason, we know how that turned out.

So you believe since you are saved there is no possibility you could ever be wrong on any doctrine?

Your reasoning is, since the Holy Ghost is our teacher, there is no chance for error on your part?

I’m sorry, we are not yet perfect, we are still subject to make mistakes, if everything was so cut and dried as you portray we wouldn’t be on this forum. We still have to study to show ourselves approved 2 Tim 2:15. Paul corrected believers that had the same Holy Ghost he had. You do not have a monopoly on correct doctrine. I have been wrong and you have been wrong. We have the scriptures as our ultimate guide. Whatever we proclaim must line up with scripture. When you act like it is only you and those who believe like you do have “ears to hear” you are showing that self-righteous attitude I was pointing out. I believe I have been led by the Holy Spirit on some specific things in scripture, but I have never said thus saith the Lord, because that is just a little pretentious IMHO. Plus I believe many times that tactic is used to shut down debate or cover for a real lack of knowledge.

 

[Gnarwhal]

on the contrary, we believe it because it is very much a part of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is written down in God's Word.

Ha that's cute. But no that's not it.

The bigger question is, since it IS written in God's word, WHY DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT?

Because it's an innovation. It's some dude named John Nelson Darby's interpretation from a mere ~160 years ago. It's not the what Christianity has held to for 2,000 years so it has no merit. It's a fantasy, a fiction made up by fringe believers and embraced by escapists who have a poor view of creation.

 

[iamlamad]

Ok, if it as you say “prophecy of FUTURE events” what actually happens at the time of the blowing of the 7th trumpet, from the text?

Wow! You have given me an EASY one!

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It is at the 7th trumpet that Satan loses and Christ gains. It is at that moment in time that Michael goes after Satan to kick him down from the heavenlies. It is at that moment Jesus becomes the GOD of this world.

In the Beginning, God gave Adam total dominion and authority over this planet....but it was a 6000 year lease (the mystery). Satan then deceived Eve and Adam and Eve sinned, and Satan then usurped Adam's lease. He took total dominion and authority over this world. The human race was included. That is why Jesus has to REDEEM or purchases us back at the cost of His life's blood. AT the 7th trumpet the 6000 year lease TERMINATES (the mystery). It is at this point that Jesus Christ finally has AUTHORITY over this world to bring HIS WILL to pass. From Genesis to the 7th trumpet HE did NOT have authority except over His spiritual Kingdom.

Please understand, if the 7th trumpet never sounded, NONE of the rest of the book would come to pass, because Satan would remain as the god of this world. And if "no man was found" worthy to break the seals, the human race would forever be the property of Satan.

Thank GOD Jesus was found worthy to break the seals and begin the countdown to Satan's final knockout!

 

[iamlamad]

...

 

[iamlamad]

Ha that's cute. But no that's not it.



Because it's an innovation. It's some dude named John Nelson Darby's interpretation from a mere ~160 years ago. It's not the what Christianity has held to for 2,000 years so it has no merit. It's a fantasy, a fiction made up by fringe believers and embraced by escapists who have a poor view of creation.

No, you only THINK you know, when in fact, you don't. The truth is, MILLIONS believe this and have never heard of John Darby. You only blame him because you are blind to the pretrib rapture is scripture. If you wish to find the timing of Paul's rapture, you can only find it in Paul's writing. Don't even think of looking in the gospels for it is not there. The entire Gentile church of which we are a part was a mystery hidden in God during Jesus' life on earth. There is nothing about the Gentile church in Matthew 24. That was Jesus, a Hebrew prophet and Only Begotten Son answering Jewish men about the end of THEIR air - the age that will end with the 70th week.

Of course, it is your choice: you can IGNORE Luke 21:36 and get left behind. Just know that if you do, you WILL BE overcome. That is God's word to you for that time. You will either take the mark or lose your head. There will not be a third choice for many millions of people. That is what "overcome" means.

By the way, when Martin Luther nailed his thesis on the door, did that mean "It's not the what Christianity has held to for so many years so it has no merit. It's a fantasy, a fiction made up by on crazed believer?

 

[ivebeenshown]

You only blame him because you are blind to the pretrib rapture is scripture.

This is very inflammatory language. You are not Jesus nor are you one of the Apostles who authored any Holy writ, so I hope that you would reconsider the way you speak to fellow Christians.

If you wish to find the timing of Paul's rapture, you can only find it in Paul's writing.

From the following writings of Paul which concern the coming of Jesus, or the resurrection of the dead, and our gathering to him (listed by writing and chapters of note, please add to this list if any are missing):

- 1 Corinthians (15)
- 1 Thessalonians (4)
- 2 Thessalonians (1, 2)
- Titus (2)
- 2 Timothy (4)

Where in there, or any writings by Paul, does the scripture indicate that the gathering of us unto Jesus is prior to the great tribulation, or where does it indicate that the gathering of us unto Jesus is different than the gathering of the elect described by Christ as occurring after the tribulation?

 

[BABerean2]

Because it's an innovation. It's some dude named John Nelson Darby's interpretation from a mere ~160 years ago. It's not the what Christianity has held to for 2,000 years so it has no merit.

And here is the proof you are correct...

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Left Behind or Led Astray?
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9iRT91_pyo

.

 

[keras]

What Lamad, Short Timer and all who grip onto a pre trib rapture to heaven can't see, is not only the fact the Bible never does say that God will do such a thing, but the truth of what God WILL do and that is to gather His righteous people into all of the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal judgement of the nations. That worldwide disaster by fire, will clear the Middle east and enable the new nation of Beulah to be established. Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11-31
The deception of a rapture removal, held onto so strongly by some, makes them miss the amazing truth of how God will protect His people during His wrath and then how He will bless them in the Land. Ezekiel 39:25-29, Hosea 14:4-7

 

[iamlamad]

This is very inflammatory language. You are not Jesus nor are you one of the Apostles who authored any Holy writ, so I hope that you would reconsider the way you speak to fellow Christians.

From the following writings of Paul which concern the coming of Jesus, or the resurrection of the dead, and our gathering to him (listed by writing and chapters of note, please add to this list if any are missing):

- 1 Corinthians (15)
- 1 Thessalonians (4)
- 2 Thessalonians (1, 2)
- Titus (2)
- 2 Timothy (4)

Where in there, or any writings by Paul, does the scripture indicate that the gathering of us unto Jesus is prior to the great tribulation, or where does it indicate that the gathering of us unto Jesus is different than the gathering of the elect described by Christ as occurring after the tribulation?

It is in 1 Thes. 5 and in 2 Thes. 2.

In 1 Thes. 5, Paul shows us that the rapture will come just one moment before His wrath, for while the Bride is caught up, the sinner is caught in the sudden destruction of the start of God's wrath. In Revelation, we see that His wrath begins at the 6th seal and continues on through the entire 70th week. The week begins at the 7th seal and with the 1st trumpet. It ends at the 7th vial. Since we are caught up before the 6th seal, the rapture is CLEARLY pretrib.

In 2 thes. 2, the church is "taken out of the way" (apostasia) and then the man of sin is revealed. His revealing will be when he enters the temple and declares he is god. Then everyone will see that it is the BEAST. This will take place on earth when the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven.

So the church will be "taken out of the way" so the restraining force will be removed. He will not be revealed instantly after the church is removed. So Paul is certainly in agreement with Himself in 1 thes.

I don't know why so many people wish to set their OWN appointments with God's wrath. I don't know why so many will not believe Luke when he told us to pray that we be found worthy to escape all these things. Why would someone NOT want to escape beheading - especially since it is God's will to escape?

John then SAW the raptured church IN HEAVEN shortly after the 6th seal rapture. (see Rev. 7)

Finally, if we believe John, He shows the marriage and supper IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends to earth. That would make it impossible for posttribbers to make it to the marriage. That does not seem to bother them though: they just rearrange Revelation to fit! Do you think that would work? Do you think God would change what is written to fit a theory?

If someone does not see the truth of scripture, are they not blind to it? I am probably to a lot if scripture, but I am learning. The only problem is, my life will end before I get much of it understood. Thank God I understood at 7 years old that I needed a savior and I understood how to get born again!

 

[iamlamad]

And here is the proof you are correct...

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Left Behind or Led Astray?
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9iRT91_pyo

.

Sorry, Paul was the originator of the rapture, and he believed it was pretrib and wrote about it. This theory of 2000 years of ignorance about it is nonsense. There were many people ignorant of Salvation by faith alone when Martin Luther came along. Many had not heard that doctrine for hundreds of years. Yet, Paul originated that doctrine too. It was not Paul's fault the truth was lost for hundreds of years.

 

[iamlamad]

What Lamad, Short Timer and all who grip onto a pre trib rapture to heaven can't see, is not only the fact the Bible never does say that God will do such a thing, but the truth of what God WILL do and that is to gather His righteous people into all of the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal judgement of the nations. That worldwide disaster by fire, will clear the Middle east and enable the new nation of Beulah to be established. Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11-31
The deception of a rapture removal, held onto so strongly by some, makes them miss the amazing truth of how God will protect His people during His wrath and then how He will bless them in the Land. Ezekiel 39:25-29, Hosea 14:4-7

You are absolutely right: I cannot see this because it is simply fiction.

Please provide a countering scripture to the two that tells us the saints will be OVERCOME. Did God contradict Himself? I don't think so, but maybe you have found some obscure verse that opposes the verses that say the saints will be overcome.

REmember when the children of Israel finally got to the promised land and refused to go in? At that time it was CERTAINLY God's will for them to go in. They refused and God changed His mind. At that time it was NOT His will that they go in. But the people changed their mind also and attempted to go in and got whipped soundly! They were attempting to follow God's PREVIOUS will. It did not work.

God has declared that HIS WILL for the days of GT will be that the saints are OVERCOME. He has not changed His mind on this. A verse such as "resist the devil and He will flee" will not work during those days of GT. The ONLY verses that one could have the God kind of faith on then would be that you will be overcome. The best thing to do then, is just turn yourself in and say, "I am one of those Christians you hate, and I will not bow to your idol or take your mark. Just take off my head and let me get to heaven the hard way."

How much better just to believe Luke 21:36 and pray to be found worthy to escape the beheadings and being overcome.

 

[BABerean2]

Sorry, Paul was the originator of the rapture, and he believed it was pretrib and wrote about it. This theory of 2000 years of ignorance about it is nonsense. There were many people ignorant of Salvation by faith alone when Martin Luther came along. Many had not heard that doctrine for hundreds of years. Yet, Paul originated that doctrine too. It was not Paul's fault the truth was lost for hundreds of years.

And you think the "truth" of the pretrib rapture was rediscovered in 1830, after a sick 15 year old girl had a "vision", even though she was later proven to be a false prophet...

Maybe Peter just got lucky when 3,000 were added to the Church on the Day of Pentecost, while Paul was still a Pharisee. I wonder how Peter did it, since Paul was not converted yet?



Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?


Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
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