This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[klutedavid]

Hello Marvin.

Thanks for your reply, you wrote the following in your post.

1. The whole section (9-11) is about the security of individuals.
Election of nations would not make any contextual sense. Paul has just
told the Roman Christians that nothing could separate them from God’s
love (Rom. 8:31-39).

Marvin, surely you can see what you are doing. Your highlighting three
verses in chapter nine and ignoring all the other verses in chapter nine.

You also may need to read these verses (Romans 9:9-11) again and
much more carefully. These three verses do not say what you think
they are saying, Marvin.

11... so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not
because of works but because of Him who calls.

Two phrases stand out here, 'God's purpose' and 'not because of works'.

There is nothing about individual election in this line Marvin.

Paul has been talking about the failure of Israel (law, works), to arrive
at election since chapter two of Romans. So why did Israel (law, works),
fail to acheive election? Israel failed to gain election because Israel
pursued election by works (the law) and not by faith!

11...not because of works but because of Him who calls.

Israel cannot become elect through works (the law), Israel represents
these works. Context, context, Marvin, election results from the call
of God Himself in Christ Jesus, that is the real purpose.

Further, the twins had committed no sin because they had not yet been
born. Esau cannot be condemned Marvin, because Esau has not committed
any sin. Your theology condemns the innocent Marvin, your theology is
unsound and disobeys the context.

Paul is wholly talking about God's purpose and not individual election
in chapter nine. As for the attempted connection of these three verses
to Romans chapter eight. Chapter eight of Romans is for another day.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You like many others need to study what the words actually mean and not put in your personal view-opinions.
There is no more confusing way to communicate than between people who do not share the same language - dialect.

Everyone has been correcting you this entire thread.

You need to study more, much more. And not express your opinions about others and stick to the post itself. Can you handle that?

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Marvin.

You stated the following in your reply.

4. Rom. 9:15 emphasizes God’s sovereignty about choosing individuals.
“I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.” The pronoun hon (whom) is a
masculine singular. If we were talking about nations, a plural pronoun would
have been used.

How about we print the text and see what the text is stating.

Romans 9
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then
it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on
God who has mercy.

You probably missed line sixteen Marvin because you are selective
in the verses you are choosing.

16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs

Salvation is not gained through works, election is gained through faith.

No one can enter heaven by their own self effort, we rely on God's
mercy in Jesus Christ. God's compassion is only on those who
accept Christ Jesus, that's what Paul is arguing all the way through
Romans.

Corporate election Marvin, not a national election, Isreal and the
Gentiles, circumcised and uncircumcised, think corporate.

Israel represents a legal works orientated salvation, but the Gentiles
are chosen through faith. The Gentiles are chosen by GRACE, God's
mercy that is. The nation of Israel is hardened and cut off.

Paul is not really talking about individual election in Romans
chapter nine, verse fifteen. The context must include verse sixteen
as well. When both verses are together the meaning is much clearer.

Context, context, and more context.

 

[sdowney717]

Hello Marvin.

Thanks for your reply, you wrote the following in your post.


Marvin, surely you can see what you are doing. Your highlighting three
verses in chapter nine and ignoring all the other verses in chapter nine.

You also may need to read these verses (Romans 9:9-11) again and
much more carefully. These three verses do not say what you think
they are saying, Marvin.

11... so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not
because of works but because of Him who calls.

Two phrases stand out here, 'God's purpose' and 'not because of works'.

There is nothing about individual election in this line Marvin.

Paul has been talking about the failure of Israel (law, works), to arrive
at election since chapter two of Romans. So why did Israel (law, works),
fail to acheive election? Israel failed to gain election because Israel
pursued election by works (the law) and not by faith!

11...not because of works but because of Him who calls.

Israel cannot become elect through works (the law), Israel represents
these works. Context, context, Marvin, election results from the call
of God Himself in Christ Jesus, that is the real purpose.

Further, the twins had committed no sin because they had not yet been
born. Esau cannot be condemned Marvin, because Esau has not committed
any sin. Your theology condemns the innocent Marvin, your theology is
unsound and disobeys the context.

Paul is wholly talking about God's purpose and not individual election
in chapter nine. As for the attempted connection of these three verses
to Romans chapter eight. Chapter eight of Romans is for another day.

Hi you said this
11... so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not
because of works but because of Him who calls.

Two phrases stand out here, 'God's purpose' and 'not because of works'.

But your not going to forget about the other two are you?
'according to His choice'
and
'but because of Him who calls'

That makes it personal election, dont you think so?
Especially don't forget that calling is mentioned in scripture personally with words like
'consider your calling brethren, not many wise, etc... are called.' in 1 Corinthians 1

26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]: 27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong; 28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, [yea] and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are: 29 that no flesh should glory before God.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption: 31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[sdowney717]

Perhaps in another thread you would like to explain how predestination and free will are compatible. I would like to hear that.

This is called compatibilism

https://www.google.com/search?q=com...i57j69i60l2&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

 

[Marvin Knox]

Perhaps in another thread you would like to explain how predestination and free will are compatible. I would like to hear that.

I have done so many times.

The fulfillment of what God has predestined to happen in the life of any particular person is not a lot different than the fulfillment of what God has predestined to happen in an act of nature or anything else that may happen in God's creation in fact.

God is not, according to the clear teaching of scripture, just observing what happens in His creation from some prominent vantage point afar off. God is not only transcendent to His creation - He is intimately immanent as well.

He is not only our creator, Father, friend, brother, comforter, savior and whatever else He is. He is also our indweller and sustainer in every aspect of our being. In Him we live and move and have our being. All things (including every synapse and chemical flow in the brain with which you think) was created by Him and for Him and in Him it all holds together.

The concurrent actions of God and His creation is illustrated for us very clearly throughout scripture. They include acts of nature. They include the actions and words and thoughts of evil men. They include the actions and words and thoughts of good men and saved men as well. Examples of these concurrent actions and words range from the actions and words of Pharaoh and Caiaphas the high priest and the actions of those who crucified our Lord, to prophetic utterances by the prophets and the writing by both God and men at the same time of the very Bible we are discussing.

All the while the fact that God is also acting does not in any way interfere with the concept that those actions are being undertaken by the free choices of His creation.

Everything God does is done by His Word which He has sent forth to accomplish exactly what He intends to be accomplished by Him in history. That includes creating you, indwelling and sustaining you and moving you through life as He intends so that all things that you do will work together for good in the end.

You work out your salvation as a real person with whom God communes on a personal level. But at the same time it is God who is at work in you to do His good pleasure. It is your faith that lays hold of the provisions of the gospel message and yet it is God Himself who is the author of that faith.

These things are almost too wonderful to even begin to describe. They cause the person who accepts them to fall at the feet of the One with whom we have to do in utter worship.

One hardly knows where to start with a review of these most basic principles concerning who we are and what He is. It seems to me that people who do not believe in the absolute sovereignty of God in everything that happens have invented a God other than the one shown to us in the scriptures.

Just because the God of the vast majority of Christians is small and distant does not make those ideas right. A student of scripture should learn to take every bit of knowledge that has been given to us in scripture and build on it and include it in their next step in attaining knowledge concerning what the Word of God teaches. That includes concerning salvation and related doctrines as well.

You should not give lip service to certain doctrines about the nature of God and His magnificent providential control of His creation and then put those truths on the shelf while you investigate other doctrines such as salvation itself. One doctrine builds upon another. To the one who takes the truth that they have been given by God into His storehouse - even more will be given.

I believe this principle goes a long way to explain why some cannot go beyond arguing against what God has told us about the basics. They will always be searching but they will never be able to come to the truth. This section of the Christian Forums stands as written proof of that principle IMO.

You know ----- I think I'll just leave it with that very superficial start of a very,very big subject.

The bottom line that I really should have left it at was what I said before as I have said many times.

Everything that happens in God's creation has been predestined to happen. He is the sovereign Lord.

And - -- the predestination by God of all that is being done by His Word is not in conflict in the slightest way with the choices made by men.

You --- and I --- are simply not God. We are the creation. How He can hover over us and sing to us songs of love - and die for us - while He is God and we are merely what He creates and sustains I do not know. It is all a mystery.

I just bask in the wonder of it.

Many others apparently will just miss out on this aspect of praise in this life.

No doubt we will all understand more fully in the future. I just wish that we all could now.

Some just can't seem to get past the the stumbling block that is the absolute sovereignty of the creator of all things.

I think it's a shame.

 

[sdowney717]

God works all things according to the council of His own will, but still we are not robots. What we are before Christ sets us free ---slaves to sin.

Being a slave to sin is we are held captive to devish wisdom from below, of the earth and follow after the flesh and Satan. None can free themselves from that bondage, it takes one greater than yourself to open the eyes of your understanding to be enabled to know spiritual truths of God and Christ.
God holds people accountable for the sin of not believing in Christ, commanding all to repent and believe but sovereignly regenerates to eternal life those He has elected and known beforehand. God does choose to shine His light into the heart of some and not others. This is His right to do with fallen man what He wills.

2 Corinthians 4 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Light of Christ’s Gospel
1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart.
2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

To some the gospel is veiled, hidden, to those who are perishing God has NOT shined His light into their hearts. But to others God has shown HIS LIGHT into their hearts, become as clear as the day, the morning star rises in your heart and you know by revelation knowledge the truth.

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;

 

[Isaiah55:6]

Just because the God of the vast majority of Christians is small and distant does not make those ideas right.

Though I agree with everything that you said in your post and enjoy all your others as well, I just wanted to make one quick little comment brother. I would be carful in implying that their God and our God are different Gods. I understand what your saying here but implying we serve a different God can lead to opening up a whole other can of worms.
God bless

 

[sdowney717]

Though I agree with everything that you said in your post and enjoy all your others as well, I just wanted to make one quick little comment brother. I would be carful in implying that their God and our God are different Gods. I understand what your saying here but implying we serve a different God can lead to opening up a whole other can of worms.
God bless

There exists such a thing as a false Christ. Jesus warned us that they would be coming into the world.
His promise to His elect is that they will not be deceived. For the remainder of humanity, they will follow the false Christ, a false saviour, who someday will be shown as the Antichrist, beast and false prophet, the false trinity of Revelations. We get a warning in Thessalonians about a coming falling away.
Such a deception has been ongoing in various christian cult groups from the beginning. But at the end, the deception will be fully empowered to the maximum possible extent that Satan can bring.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

There exists such a thing as a false Christ. Jesus warned us that they would be coming into the world.
His promise to His elect is that they will not be deceived. For the remainder of humanity, they will follow the false Christ, a false saviour, who someday will be shown as the Antichrist, beast and false prophet, the false trinity of Revelations. We get a warning in Thessalonians about a coming falling away.
Such a deception has been ongoing in various christian cult groups from the beginning. But at the end, the deception will be fully empowered to the maximum possible extent that Satan can bring.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

What does this have to do with anything? The God of the Arminians and the God of the Calvinists is the same God. We're not talking about fundamentally different Gods like say in Mormonism.

 

[brotherjerry]

SDowney, thank you for the link.
Marvin. Thank you for the insight.

Marvin let me say this, just because one does not believe that God is predestining every step in a persons life does not in any way lay a claim that God is hands off and is just sitting back watching.

And there is a subtle difference in determinism and predestination. When it comes to predestination the decisions of what will or will not happen is God. This by definition removes mans will to do anything. Determinism is not so much God making the decisions as to what will happen, but instead using third party forces to influence an outcome as determined by God.

The story of Job is a great example of this. God set the boundaries of what Satan could do, He did not tell Satan what he could do. God knew that Job would not fail Him and lose faith, but God did not dictate that he will not lose faith. We see this with the Jews through out the Bible....the entire concept of "Don't eat of the fruit or you will die" leaves the determination of what can happen up to the man. God did not decide that it was best for man to eat of the fruit, because that is entirely not what God wanted. God knew man would however. Foreknowledge...which is altogether different from predestination and determinism.

Predestination on the individual level (you and me) negates what the Bible teaches in that God desires all to be saved. If it is entirely up to God, via the definition of predestination, on an individual level, then all would be saved.

See man's free will does not "trump" God's will. But HE wants us to come to Him freely. Predestination on an individual level negates us coming to him freely. So does election. And God will 'nudge' us by using other people, events, and anything else in order to move us towards what He desires, and what His plans are. But we cannot blindly accept that God has predestined everything in our lives. For predestination is Him deciding and if He is predestining everything in our lives, then it is Him that is deciding to send people to Hell, not the people themselves. And that is why predestination is not compatible with free will.

And that is also why so many people get it wrong, they simply do not understand what predestination actually means. There are things that God did predestine though. Christ for example. God knew that man would need a Savior. The people who followed Christ He also predestined (not individually but as a people) to be conformed to the image of Christ, the bride of Christ. And God predestined the bride, it would be made up of the people that believed in Christ, that followed the call that was made to the world through Christ sacrifice. When we see predestined mentioned in the Bible it is speaking of the body of Christ, the church that is to be the bride, that is conformed to the image of Christ. It is not speaking of you and me as individuals. Because if it is, then God has decided to send people to Hell, and that goes agains what the Bible says when it says that He wishes all to be saved (1 timothy 2:4).

But again, I truly believe that God works in our lives, is active, is moving, and shaking and using us for His glory. Which is part of being a member of the body of Christ...I have turned over my will to God and let Him do with me as He wills. I have given up my free will, freely and with joy.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, opponents Of the Word will try to catch you out in your speech. They have an ungodly agenda, which If people truly studied the word and accepted what the scripture actually say, you think would be convicted in their hearts of the Truth, yet they don't and are more interested is twisting the scripture.
If they did so with Christ and they did, they also will attack His servant's of the grace of God and righteousness, and also they deny the power of God to intervene according to HIS will, overcoming the will of man to save people whom He has chosen to save, which are the elect.

Your true colors are now showing.

Using phrases like

* opponents of the Word
* they have an ungodly agenda
* are more interested in twisting scripture
* attacking Christ's servants
* deny the power of God

Maybe you need a long nap. Step away from the keyboard and reconnect with God, then come back and apologize.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Though I agree with everything that you said in your post and enjoy all your others as well, I just wanted to make one quick little comment brother. I would be carful in implying that their God and our God are different Gods. I understand what your saying here but implying we serve a different God can lead to opening up a whole other can of worms.
God bless

Point well taken brother (or sister?).

I am absolutely not meaning to insinuate that those who do not have the understanding of God that I have are literally worshiping a different God. That is to say that I do not mean to insinuate that they are not true Christians because they do not have this same understanding of things that I have. (I am far from being a Gnostic in that respect.)

I am convinced that those here who do not see God as absolutely the sovereign Lord of the universe can, and in most case are, saved for eternity and are brothers and sisters of mine.

I just find it to be a shame that they have to wait until they see through the glass absolutely clearly before they can and will be able to worship God in His majesty sovereignty.

I also lament that they will likely suffer at least some loss at the Judgement Seat of Christ for having steped out into the realm of teaching in the body of Christ, here in this forum, without having worked through these things fully beforehand.

God warns us to be sure that we do not do that as James teaches us through God's Holy Spirit.


"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment." James 3:1

It would behoove all those who venture to post their opinions here in the Forum to have considered these weighty things fully before putting finger to key.

 

[Marvin Knox]

SDowney, thank you for the link.
Marvin. Thank you for the insight.

Marvin let me say this, just because one does not believe that God is predestining every step in a persons life does not in any way lay a claim that God is hands off and is just sitting back watching.

And there is a subtle difference in determinism and predestination. When it comes to predestination the decisions of what will or will not happen is God. This by definition removes mans will to do anything. Determinism is not so much God making the decisions as to what will happen, but instead using third party forces to influence an outcome as determined by God.

The story of Job is a great example of this. God set the boundaries of what Satan could do, He did not tell Satan what he could do. God knew that Job would not fail Him and lose faith, but God did not dictate that he will not lose faith. We see this with the Jews through out the Bible....the entire concept of "Don't eat of the fruit or you will die" leaves the determination of what can happen up to the man. God did not decide that it was best for man to eat of the fruit, because that is entirely not what God wanted. God knew man would however. Foreknowledge...which is altogether different from predestination and determinism.

Predestination on the individual level (you and me) negates what the Bible teaches in that God desires all to be saved. If it is entirely up to God, via the definition of predestination, on an individual level, then all would be saved.

See man's free will does not "trump" God's will. But HE wants us to come to Him freely. Predestination on an individual level negates us coming to him freely. So does election. And God will 'nudge' us by using other people, events, and anything else in order to move us towards what He desires, and what His plans are. But we cannot blindly accept that God has predestined everything in our lives. For predestination is Him deciding and if He is predestining everything in our lives, then it is Him that is deciding to send people to Hell, not the people themselves. And that is why predestination is not compatible with free will.

And that is also why so many people get it wrong, they simply do not understand what predestination actually means. There are things that God did predestine though. Christ for example. God knew that man would need a Savior. The people who followed Christ He also predestined (not individually but as a people) to be conformed to the image of Christ, the bride of Christ. And God predestined the bride, it would be made up of the people that believed in Christ, that followed the call that was made to the world through Christ sacrifice. When we see predestined mentioned in the Bible it is speaking of the body of Christ, the church that is to be the bride, that is conformed to the image of Christ. It is not speaking of you and me as individuals. Because if it is, then God has decided to send people to Hell, and that goes agains what the Bible says when it says that He wishes all to be saved (1 timothy 2:4).

But again, I truly believe that God works in our lives, is active, is moving, and shaking and using us for His glory. Which is part of being a member of the body of Christ...I have turned over my will to God and let Him do with me as He wills. I have given up my free will, freely and with joy.

Brotherjerry - like Jesus before me - I can only do what the Father is doing.

I absolutely love being in that position before God as did our Lord.

Others seem to chafe at that prospect.

I do not.

I used to have trouble with it - as have most of my persuasion.

But now I am not only comfortable with it - I absolutely revel in it and I worship my sovereign Lord because of it.

IMO - in order for one to come to such a position before God requires a total brokenness concerning who He is and who they are.

I pray that all here listening will come to that fork in the road and take the correct turn.

 

[brotherjerry]

Brotherjerry - like Jesus before me - I can only do what the Father is doing.

I absolutely love being in that position before God as did our Lord.

Others seem to chafe at that prospect.

I do not.

I used to have trouble with it - as have most of my persuasion.

But now I am not only comfortable with it - I absolutely revel in it and I worship my sovereign Lord because of it.

IMO - in order for one to come to such a position before God requires a total brokenness concerning who He is and who they are.

I pray that all here listening will come to that fork in the road and take the correct turn.

And brother there is no shame in that. Been there and done that, still living that. God is sovereign and ruler of my world.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Downey.

An interesting thread.

Hi you said this
11... so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not
because of works but because of Him who calls.

Correction Downey, Paul actually uttered the statement above not
me.

You stated the following.

Two phrases stand out here, 'God's purpose' and
'not because of works'.

Yes Downey, it is very clear what Paul was saying in chapter nine.

But your not going to forget about the other two are you?
'according to His choice' and 'but because of Him who calls'

Downey, how could I ever forget to include those powerful phrases?
What I will do is provide the context in order to understand them.

Romans 9
11...so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not
because of works but because of Him who calls.

Obviously you spotted the change in the meaning of these phrases
due to the context? Not because of works, but solely due to the call
of God in Christ Jesus.

That makes it personal election, dont you think so?

I must disagree with the idea of a 'personal election' in this letter.
You may be able to establish the idea of a 'personal election' using
other letters, but certainly not using Paul's letter to the Romans.

As I have said before, I do not disagree with the idea of a predestined,
and personal election. As long as this idea can be strongly supported
from the scripture. Context must be followed at all times and inference
should be avoided.

 

[sdowney717]

What does this have to do with anything? The God of the Arminians and the God of the Calvinists is the same God. We're not talking about fundamentally different Gods like say in Mormonism.

The people in 2 Thessalonians 2 of the falling away apostasy are the same like these here who claimed in bold arrogance to be followers of the true Christ, but Jesus says He never knew them. The fact that Jesus says they did cast out demons, prophesy, do many wonders in His name show that they were intimate inside of the church. They were though false workers of evil and iniquity. No doubt some who post here are them.
They will exist side by side, the false and the true. Recall the parable of the tares and the wheat. Peter also says among you will be false teachers. The fact that there actually are false teachers mixed in with the true teachers ought to be obvious but not everyone can discern them.AND not everybody WANTS to see that or EXPOSE them.
They would rather not make waves. But Jude tells us to contend for the faith against them.

The Narrow Way
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[Rik Brooks]

If one is habitually sinning...more than likely they never had a saving relationship with Jesus.

Secondly, you're not a "true" disciple until you are saved.

and,

A disciple should be obedient to Jesus.

What is habitually? I am almost 60 years old and have been sinning since I was born. Sometimes more, sometimes less. So what is habitually? If I sin every day is that 'habitually' and I don't have a saving relationship?



What if I only sin once a week? One time a week I sin. The rest of the time I’m as pure as the driven snow. Isn’t that habitually unsinful? Or maybe not.

I was saved almost half a century ago but spent decades apart from the Lord. Had I died back during those decades would I now be asking for Lazarus to bring me a drop of water for my searing thirst? Now that I’ve turned back to the Lord, am I saved? I feel the Holy Spirit and he guides me but all these wise men here seem intent that if I don’t do enough, often enough, then I’m fooling myself.

…but they won’t tell me how much is enough and how often is often enough.

So I keep coming back to John 3:16 and thinking that it was NOT said “…that whosoever believeth in me, and tithe, and sell his belongings and give to the poor, and, and, and” He said believeth.

I think of Galatians where Paul says to beware the teachers that you need more than grace, that works are required for salvation.

So if this thread is the end of the discussion of grace and OSAS then I’m missing something.

Somebody kindly explain this?

 

[brotherjerry]

Amen Mr. Brooks.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The people in 2 Thessalonians 2 of the falling away apostasy are the same like these here who claimed in bold arrogance to be followers of the true Christ, but Jesus says He never knew them. The fact that Jesus says they did cast out demons, prophesy, do many wonders in His name show that they were intimate inside of the church. They were though false workers of evil and iniquity. No doubt some who post here are them.
They will exist side by side, the false and the true. Recall the parable of the tares and the wheat. Peter also says among you will be false teachers. The fact that there actually are false teachers mixed in with the true teachers ought to be obvious but not everyone can discern them.AND not everybody WANTS to see that or EXPOSE them.
They would rather not make waves. But Jude tells us to contend for the faith against them.

The Narrow Way
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Who do you think the people are who will be 'falling away'? Christians or non-Christians?

Who do you think the people are who will fall into the "I never knew you" people? Christians or non-Christians?

Who would qualify as a "wolf in sheep's clothing"? Christians or non-Christians?