This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[sdowney717]

I agree, but would add that there is also the question "What are these elect people chosen for?"


I agree. And since this purpose is clearly not to be elected to heaven, this shows that the concept of election can be used in senses that have no connection to eternal life. I know you are not saying otherwise, but another poster (sdowney) is.

Romans 9. I already talked of this about who it the true 'Israel of God'
Paul equates their being elect those who obtain salvation.
And Paul says not all are 'of Israel'
To be counted as 'the seed', then you must be a 'child of the promise' and only the elect are such persons.

Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Who are the 'seed'?
Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Paul writes to the gentile Galatians that they are 'children of the promise'
So both jews and gentile are may be included- counted as the 'seed' so that the promise according to election of God will stand true. That is the elect jews, and the elect gentiles must be children of the promise according to the power of God and not the power of the flesh and that means to be chosen of God to be saved.

 

[brotherjerry]

Define 'propitiation', you tell us what it means.
Then let us see if the world has propitiation.

You claimed it..
1 John 2:2 says "And he Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Why don't you tell us what John was talking about here? Explain to us what you think John meant when he said "but also for those of the whole world".

I mean I can read it and understand what it says. Are you going to claim it does not say that or means something different....if so then please explain it. You are the one making the claim, onus is on you.

 

[expos4ever]

Romans 9. I already talked of this about who it the true 'Israel of God'
Paul equates their being elect those who obtain salvation.

Agree, but it simply does not follow logically that the elect who get salvation get that salvation by being elected.

Let's say God elected the 2015 Kansas City Royals to win the World Series.

Does this mean that the specific players on the team were elected to win the series?

No!

It is entirely plausible that they wound up on that team for any of a number of reasons.

God chose the KC Royals to win the Series - the specific players get a world series ring even though they may not necessarily have been chosen by God to be on the team.

Stepping out of the analogy: Jesus is "elected" to die on the cross and rise again. That is where the Biblical narrative takes us (I have yet to make this argument, but that is simply a matter of time). We on faith alone enter "into Christ" and inherit the benefits of being elect.

 

[sdowney717]

You claimed it..
1 John 2:2 says "And he Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Why don't you tell us what John was talking about here? Explain to us what you think John meant when he said "but also for those of the whole world".

I mean I can read it and understand what it says. Are you going to claim it does not say that or means something different....if so then please explain it. You are the one making the claim, onus is on you.

Ok, here you go.
http://biblehub.com/greek/2434.htm
HELPS Word-studies
2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry,offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By thesacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós("propitiation").

Can you understand now?
Propitiation is the atonement for all CONFESSED sin, and it is by faith. Shoot Romans 3 says the same thing.
Do those of the world confess sin and believe in Christ? No they do not.
Does the world have wrath of God turned away? No they do not.

So then that propitiation John speaks of is only for those who believe and CONFESS their sins to God.
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Who was John writing to? Who are his listeners? They are saved elect believers, not the world, but the BRETHREN, which have what?
The Holy Spirit indwelling them.
1 John 2
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.

Context frequently is ignored in favor of personal opinions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No he did not contradict himself. Read it again, carefully.

"You say that, if regeneration is the same as being saved, then regeneration is through faith as well. I totally agree with that statement. It is absolutely logical to say that.

You then say that, therefore, regeneration is through faith."

His agreement with the bolded statement is based on you saying that regeneration and being saved are the same thing.

He is not agreeing that the statement itself is true, only that it is logically consistent with itself, IF the first part is true, i.e. 'regeneration is the same as being saved'.

But all along he has said that they are NOT equivalent terms.

His point is that you engaged in the logical fallacy of circular reasoning, also known as begging the question.

His point is that they are not interchangeable terms. They are related, but different.

It is being seen as you trying to justify and "prove" you contention that 'regeneration is by faith' by means of a logical fallacy, and refusing to be corrected about it. THAT is where the charge of dishonesty comes from.

And I agree with his assessment. He did not contradict himself, the only fault one could find is that he didn't express himself as clearly as he perhaps should have.

OK, let's boil this down to the real issue: can regeneration and salvation occur separately, or are they ALWAYS found together?

By that, can one be regenerated and not saved, or can one be saved and not regenerated?

If they can occur separately, then please prove it from Scripture.

If they cannot occur separately, but always occur together, then for all practical purposes they go together.

For me, to be regenerated means to be saved.

To be saved means to be regenerated.

And I know the difference between the 2. But since they go together, and we know that salvation is through faith, then FOR ALL PRACLTICAL PURPOSES, regeneration cannot occur until one believes.

I'm NOT trying to say that faith causes regeneration any more than saying that faith causes salvation.

But since they occur at the same time, faith precedes both of them, because it precedes salvation.

So, to prove me wrong, one must show from Scripture that regeneration can exist apart from salvation.

 

[sdowney717]

Agree, but it simply does not follow logically that the elect who get salvation get that salvation by being elected.

Let's say God elected the 2015 Kansas City Royals to win the World Series.

Does this mean that the specific players on the team were elected to win the series?

No!

It is entirely plausible that they wound up on that team for any of a number of reasons.

God chose the KC Royals to win the Series - the specific players get a world series ring even though they may not necessarily have been chosen by God to be on the team.

Stepping out of the analogy: Jesus is "elected" to die on the cross and rise again. That is where the Biblical narrative takes us (I have yet to make this argument, but that is simply a matter of time). We on faith alone enter "into Christ" and inherit the benefits of being elect.

It can be equally said, the elect obtain salvation, and those who obtain salvation are elect.
But for one in the timeline supersedes the other. That would be the word 'elect'
I already posted but will again show that here.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The elect have to hear and respond to the gospel, but the assurance of God is they will.
For proof, Christ says of His elect this.

Luke 18:7
And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

 

[FreeGrace2]

My saying, "if regeneration is the same as being saved" makes all the difference in the world as has been pointed out to you.

This is a perfect example of how you attempt to twist statements and obscure truth by switching one subject to another along the line.

You hope (and probably rightly assume) that it is usually only the person involved in a particular conversation who will know all that has been said. You hope that others who are just following along will swallow your tricks and let you slide off the hook.

Rather than concede a point and move on with other arguments - you often attempt to make the other person out to be wrong by misrepresenting what has been argued.

Again I say, "I hope this won't get me banned from the forum for saying it". But you are a dishonest person. It is not just that you and I disagree on many things. I disagree with many people here and have somewhat meaningful conversations. But dishonesty I simply will not attempt to deal with.

It's not so much that, as you charge me with, that I have "gall" as it is that I call them like I see them. In your case I have seen your tricks once too often to abide them.

Our Lord "equated" what you did in previous posts and what you have attempted to do here as lying and "of the evil one"

I will no longer discuss theology with one who has shown again and again that they are dishonest. This is a Christian forum.

Unless anyone can show from Scripture that salvation and regeneration can occur separately, meaning: one can be regenerated and not saved, or saved but not regenerated, you have no point to make.

 

[expos4ever]

Yes, opponents Of the Word will try to catch you out in your speech. They have an ungodly agenda, which If people truly studied the word and accepted what the scripture actually say, you think would be convicted in their hearts of the Truth, yet they don't and are more interested is twisting the scripture.
If they did so with Christ and they did, they also will attack His servant's of the grace of God and righteousness, and also they deny the power of God to intervene according to HIS will, overcoming the will of man to save people whom He has chosen to save, which are the elect.

Oh please - we are not idiots.

We simply do not share your idea about what Scripture actually says.

I cannot speak for others but I never descend to this kind of self-righteous pontification. I suggest you invest your energies in actually defending your position, and leave the sermons and speculation about the motives of others out of it.

 

[sdowney717]

1 John 2:2New King James Version (NKJV)
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

The sins of the whole world. BUT keep in mind what is truly propitiation.
Simply here John is saying the gospel will be preached throughout the nations, and blood sacrifice of Christ applied by faith to any and on all who believe in the whole world.
'Not for our sins only', remember Propitiation is the atoning sacrifice for confessed sins by faith, so then those who are not Christians, who are not of the faith, will have no atoning sacrifice for their sins.

Indeed Christ says truly

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

 

[ToBeLoved]

Ok, here you go.
http://biblehub.com/greek/2434.htm
HELPS Word-studies
2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry,offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By thesacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós("propitiation").

Can you understand now?
Propitiation is the atonement for all CONFESSED sin, and it is by faith. Shoot Romans 3 says the same thing.
Do those of the world confess sin and believe in Christ? No they do not.
Does the world have wrath of God turned away? No they do not.

So then that propitiation John speaks of is only for those who believe and CONFESS their sins to God.
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Who was John writing to? Who are his listeners? They are saved elect believers, not the world, but the BRETHREN, which have what?
The Holy Spirit indwelling them.
1 John 2
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.

Context frequently is ignored in favor of personal opinions.

My understanding is that propitiation was Jesus Christ overcoming sin, which satisfied the Father that the sin debt was paid-in-full for the world. This is the step BEFORE Christ dealing with humanity. This is what the Father sent Him to do.

 

[ToBeLoved]

1 John 2:2New King James Version (NKJV)
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

The sins of the whole world. BUT keep in mind what is truly propitiation.
Simply here John is saying the gospel will be preached throughout the nations, and blood sacrifice of Christ applied by faith to any and on all who believe in the whole world.
'Not for our sins only', remember Propitiation is the atoning sacrifice for confessed sins by faith, so then those who are not Christians, who are not of the faith, will have no atoning sacrifice for their sins.

Indeed Christ says truly

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

I think you are confusing propitiation. Jesus had to conquer sin and the price of sin, which is spiritual death. Propitiation is Jesus conquering sin.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, opponents Of the Word will try to catch you out in your speech. They have an ungodly agenda, which If people truly studied the word and accepted what the scripture actually say, you think would be convicted in their hearts of the Truth, yet they don't and are more interested is twisting the scripture.
If they did so with Christ and they did, they also will attack His servant's of the grace of God and righteousness, and also they deny the power of God to intervene according to HIS will, overcoming the will of man to save people whom He has chosen to save, which are the elect.

Why not leave the insults out of it. Go read Paul's epistles. He said that he was long suffering for the cause of Christ. A servant serving His master well.

No one wants to listen to your high opinion of yourself and putting the rest of us down. Take a humility pill. Remember it is ONLY because of Christ's mercy and love that you are going to heaven as well as us. You're not all that and a bag of chips.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I agree, but would add that there is also the question "What are these elect people chosen for?"


I agree. And since this purpose is clearly not to be elected to heaven, this shows that the concept of election can be used in senses that have no connection to eternal life. I know you are not saying otherwise, but another poster (sdowney) is.


Well, there are clearly cases where people are "elected" (in the sense of being chosen by God for some purpose) to something other than membership in the Kingdom of Heaven.

According to Paul in Romans 9, Pharaoh was "elected" to resist the exodus.

I agree that the term "the elect" does often denote the people of God who are destined for heaven. But, as I have argued (admittedly very superficially) in a recent post, the Biblical narrative drives us to conclude that Jesus and Jesus alone is the real "target" of election (after Israel effectively abdicated her covenantal role) and we only benefit by virtue of being "in Christ".

So it is Jesus that has been elected in the sense of "chosen in advance". Admittedly, believers are also described as the elect, but Biblically this is simply a way of saying that we are united with Christ, who alone is the true target of election.

I suspect you and others will object that this sounds awfully contrived. Well, I am confident it can be defended robustly.

This isn't a new argument. But, you are right, it is IMO a very contrived argument.

There are so many ways one could go on this that it would take an entire thread to unravel.

But just for instance - the angels who did not rebel are also referred to as God's elect angels and they can hardly be said to part of the church or the "called out ones". Christ sends forth His angels to gather His "elect" from the 4 winds. He is hardly gathering Himself but individual who have fulfilled their destiny by believing on the savior.

But - enough of that for here. What you and others propose here is very contrived IMO. It is an obvious attempt to put a spin on election that will keep us from agreeing with what is obviously true.

What is true is that everything that happens in God's creation was and is predestined to happen. That includes people believing in Christ as their personal savior.

Given the revealed nature of God and His relationship to everything in His creation by His omnipresent and indwelling Word - it cannot be otherwise.

And ---- personal election unto salvation is part and parcel of the predestination of all things.

And --- just to say it one more time before someone makes an absurd statement about robots and puppets ---- predestination by God and the free will of His creatures are perfectly compatible.

We all make our choices every day and they are our choices to make even if they were predestined to take place.

The difference of course is that we are not God and we cannot act independent of what He has predestined - even if that bothers us a bit just as it bothered the devil in the beginning.

 

[expos4ever]

This isn't a new argument. But, you are right, it is IMO a very contrived argument.

There are so many ways one could go on this that it would take an entire thread to unravel....

Well, obviously we disagree about this. As time allows, I will present the case for seeing our "election" not something determined at the beginning of time, but rather as something we inherit in virtue of our being in Christ, the real "target" of God's election. As part of this package, I submit that there is no Biblical reason to believe that we are "elected" to be in Christ.

 

[sdowney717]

Well, obviously we disagree about this. As time allows, I will present the case for seeing our "election" not something determined at the beginning of time, but rather as something we inherit in virtue of our being in Christ, the real "target" of God's election. As part of this package, I submit that there is no Biblical reason to believe that we are "elected" to be in Christ.

Why not?
What about this here saying He 'chose us in HIM' from before the foundation of the world

Ephesians 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

And then from the amplified bible
4 Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love.

5 For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]—

6 [So that we might be] to the praise and the commendation of His glorious grace (favor and mercy), which He so freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

This is very very personal and individual.

 

[sdowney717]

Please also notice, Paul specifically writes this letter 'to the saints', so then it is addressed to and applies to the saints, not just Paul.
Some have argued that the first part of Ephesians 1 applies to Paul's' ministry team and or the other apostles and not the saints.
Paul includes all the children of God into the message by saying in v13

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Simply that those who heard and believe God also are included, they are alike, both those already believing, and those who believed from the preaching of the word. They share alike the same destiny, they also trusted in Christ just like Paul and the other apostles trusted in Christ.
Jesus tells us the body shall be ONE and with ONE Shepherd.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Jesus tells us the sheep hear His voice and follow Christ, Paul is saying the same thing just with slightly different wording.
John 10
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

 

[sdowney717]

I think you are confusing propitiation. Jesus had to conquer sin and the price of sin, which is spiritual death. Propitiation is Jesus conquering sin.

You like many others need to study what the words actually mean and not put in your personal view-opinions.
There is no more confusing way to communicate than between people who do not share the same language - dialect.

 

[sdowney717]

Why not leave the insults out of it. Go read Paul's epistles. He said that he was long suffering for the cause of Christ. A servant serving His master well.

No one wants to listen to your high opinion of yourself and putting the rest of us down. Take a humility pill. Remember it is ONLY because of Christ's mercy and love that you are going to heaven as well as us. You're not all that and a bag of chips.

If you do not like what I say and that response was not even directed to you, then you can put me on ignore you know.
I will not respond anymore to you, I know from your posts your quite hardened into your philosophy. My posts certainly have no benefit to you as I see by your responses, dont you think so?

 

[brotherjerry]

SDowney

Don't read the "word study" part to get your definition...because that is NOT the definition. The definition is just a little above that:
Short Definition: a propitiation, atoning sacrifice
Definition: a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.
Websters says: to make (someone) pleased or less angry by giving or saying something desired

Context frequently is ignored in favor of personal opinions

Yes...yes it is...and you ignored it. 1 John 2 is talking to fellow believers, that is true. And in verse 2 when he says "not for ours" he is talking about believers..he is including himself in that mix. But then he goes on "but also for those of the whole world"

Christ paid the final blood sacrifice that was required by God for the atonement of sin. There is no sacrifice that can compare to the perfect Lamb of God. This sacrifice was made for all man kind, no one else can make a sacrifice to atone for sin, it will do nothing to sacrifice a calf, a goat, a lamb, for the final sacrifice has been made.

John 3:16 For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten son.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all

Sdowney, who were you before God washed away your sins? You were like me, a filthy sinner bound for Hell in a hand basket. But because Jesus died for us as sinners, He too died for the sinner that lives next door to you, or down the street. Jesus did not die for just a few people who will accept Him, no where in the Bible does it say that. Jesus died so that the sinner may live, any sinner, all sinners. When you got saved and your sins were washed away, you did not sacrifice a lamb did you? (I hope not or we need to start another thread.. ). No because Jesus' sacrifice was the propitiation to God for all sin.

 

[brotherjerry]

This isn't a new argument. But, you are right, it is IMO a very contrived argument.

There are so many ways one could go on this that it would take an entire thread to unravel.

But just for instance - the angels who did not rebel are also referred to as God's elect angels and they can hardly be said to part of the church or the "called out ones". Christ sends forth His angels to gather His "elect" from the 4 winds. He is hardly gathering Himself but individual who have fulfilled their destiny by believing on the savior.

But - enough of that for here. What you and others propose here is very contrived IMO. It is an obvious attempt to put a spin on election that will keep us from agreeing with what is obviously true.

What is true is that everything that happens in God's creation was and is predestined to happen. That includes people believing in Christ as their personal savior.

Given the revealed nature of God and His relationship to everything in His creation by His omnipresent and indwelling Word - it cannot be otherwise.

And ---- personal election unto salvation is part and parcel of the predestination of all things.

And --- just to say it one more time before someone makes an absurd statement about robots and puppets ---- predestination by God and the free will of His creatures are perfectly compatible.

We all make our choices every day and they are our choices to make even if they were predestined to take place.

The difference of course is that we are not God and we cannot act independent of what He has predestined - even if that bothers us a bit just as it bother the devil in the beginning.

Perhaps in another thread you would like to explain how predestination and free will are compatible. I would like to hear that.