Do you agree with this statement?

[patricius79]

No, disagree.

Jesus has eternally existed. His existence has no dependence on any human being, including Mary. However, God used Mary as a vessel to bring Jesus, the Son, to us here on earth. But God chose Mary according to the counsel of His own will and according to His grace. It had nothing to do with how special Mary was or anything she had done.

And there is no concept of "Mother Church" in the Bible. And Mary is most certainly not the head of the church, nor is (was) the church dependent on the existence of Mary.

I hear you stating things like this:

"it had nothing to do with how special Mary was"?

"nor is (was) the church dependent on the existence of Mary"

Where does the Bible of the historical Church say these things?

 

[JoeP222w]

"Where does the Bible say that "it had nothing to do with how special Mary was"?"

The post I was responding to, implied, if not directly written, that Mary played a key role in the existence of Jesus, because she was special, in and of herself. I perhaps overstated myself by saying "nothing". Mary had a role, but it was because of God's choice and His grace. I did not to say that Mary is unimportant. But Mary is not be elevated to some superhuman or level equal to God. She herself acknowledged her own sinful, by acknowledging she herself needed the Savior in the Magnificat.

My point was that Jesus existence was not solely dependent on Mary, because Jesus is God and He pre-existed Mary.

Nowhere does Jesus say that the church is dependent on the existence of Mary or that Mary is to be elevated/venerated.

If the church's existence is dependent on Mary, why is that thought completely foreign to scripture (i.e. it is not found in scripture)?

Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Christ said "I will build my church". He did not say, "Mary will build my church", "Mary and I will build my church", nor does it say "Peter will build my church". Christ said, "I will build my church".

 

[patricius79]

\

"Where does the Bible say that "it had nothing to do with how special Mary was"?"

The post I was responding to, implied, if not directly written, that Mary played a key role in the existence of Jesus, because she was special, in and of herself. I perhaps overstated myself by saying "nothing". Mary had a role, but it was because of God's choice and His grace. I did not to say that Mary is unimportant. But Mary is not be elevated to some superhuman or level equal to God. She herself acknowledged her own sinful, by acknowledging she herself needed the Savior in the Magnificat.

My point was that Jesus existence was not solely dependent on Mary, because Jesus is God and He pre-existed Mary.

Nowhere does Jesus say that the church is dependent on the existence of Mary or that Mary is to be elevated/venerated.

If the church's existence is dependent on Mary, why is that thought completely foreign to scripture (i.e. it is not found in scripture)?

Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Christ said "I will build my church". He did not say, "Mary will build my church", "Mary and I will build my church", nor does it say "Peter will build my church". Christ said, "I will build my church".

I'm hearing some things which are true and some things which are not Biblical nor taught by the historic Church.

For example, you seem to be saying that the Church is not dependent on Mary. But Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our God, who came to us through her.

Where does the Bible say that the Church is not dependent on Mary? Or where does the Bible say that Mary sinned?

Of course I agree that Jesus, as God, is not dependent on Mary. But Jesus as man is obviously dependent on Mary, just as he was Incarnate through her, His Mother.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm hearing some things which are true and some things which are not Biblical nor taught by the historic Church.

For example, you seem to be saying that the Church is not dependent on Mary. But Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our God, who came to us through her.

Where does the Bible say that the Church is not dependent on Mary? Or where does the Bible say that Mary sinned?

Of course I agree that Jesus, as God, is not dependent on Mary. But Jesus as man is obviously dependent on Mary, just as he was Incarnate through her, His Mother.

Where does the Bible say that the Church is dependent on Mary? Or where does the Bible say that Mary was born without the stain of original sin and never sinned?

Given the fact that your church has dogmatized these ideas I would think that the writers of the Bible would at least mention them. Does it not seem odd to you that Mary is mentioned so infrequently in the Bible?

 

[farout]

"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Yes or No?

The only real authority is the Bible. Yahweh (LORD) chose Mary of all the women that would ever born then, or in the future, to be the Mother of Jesus Christ. Mary was a virgin, and conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Mary and Joseph raised Jesus. Mary being human, thus made Jesus fully human, and fully GOD. As wonderful as Mary was she was fully human, and is not to be prayed to or worshiped. That is what the Holy WORD of God says. We can say nothing more or less about Mary.

 

[JoeP222w]

\


Where does the Bible say that the Church is not dependent on Mary? Or where does the Bible say that Mary sinned?

Of course I agree that Jesus, as God, is not dependent on Mary. But Jesus as man is obviously dependent on Mary, just as he was Incarnate through her, His Mother.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Mary is part of that "all".

Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, (47) and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

Mary would not need the Savior is she was perfect and free from sin.

 

[patricius79]

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Mary is part of that "all".

Where does the Bible say that "Mary is part of that 'all'"?

Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, (47) and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

Mary would not need the Savior is she was perfect and free from sin.

Does the Bible say "Mary would not need the Savior if she was perfect"?

Can a person be saved from falling into sin?

 

[farout]

Where does the Bible say that "Mary is part of that 'all'"?



Does the Bible say "Mary would not need the Savior if she was perfect"?

Can a person be saved from falling into sin?

Why would the Bible have to say anything like that? If Mary were not fully human (a sinner) than Jesus would not have been a fully human, fully God. Mary knew she has the Holy SON of God in her womb did she not?

 

[JoeP222w]

Where does the Bible say that "Mary is part of that 'all'"?



Does the Bible say "Mary would not need the Savior if she was perfect"?

Can a person be saved from falling into sin?

Are you implying that Mary was not a human being? Paul begins Romans referring to Gentiles (i.e. non-Jews), then he refers to Jews. By the time he gets to Romans 3, Paul is referencing all human beings that ever lived (Jews and Gentiles). In the context, Paul is clearly referring to all human beings that ever lived in the absolute sense. Mary is a human being, is she not?

"Does the Bible say "Mary would not need the Savior if she was perfect"?"

Sounds like you are rationalizing it away to suppress the truth. If Mary called God (the Lord) her Savior, she clearly was saying she needed to be saved, because a Savior "saves" people. As Jesus said, Jesus came to heal the sick, the healthy do not need a doctor. Mary was clearly saying she needed a "doctor", clearly showing she was sick.


"Can a person be saved from falling into sin?"

You imply that Mary was saved from ever sinning. Are you implying that Mary was born without original sin? If you are, then again you are denying scripture and calling God a liar.

Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


It is ok that Mary was a sinner and that God saved her from her sins by His grace. Why? Because that magnifies God all the more, that He can use a sinful creature, to come into this world, as the incarnate Son of God.

It is not about Mary, and Mary does not get the glory. God does not share His glory with anyone, including Mary. And Mary herself, if she was aware of what was happening here, would be appalled by all the attention sinful people attempt give her. If she could, she would tell all those who worship and venerate her, to worship Christ, and to stop worshiping her.

Christ is the glorious one and no one else.

 

[patricius79]

Are you implying that Mary was not a human being? Paul begins Romans referring to Gentiles (i.e. non-Jews), then he refers to Jews. By the time he gets to Romans 3, Paul is referencing all human beings that ever lived (Jews and Gentiles). In the context, Paul is clearly referring to all human beings that ever lived in the absolute sense.

You state: "In the context, Paul is clearly referring to all human beings that ever lived in the absolute sense".

I think that the Bible and the historic Church don't say this.

If you are going to take Scripture absolutely literally, then I take it you accept literally John 6:53, John 6:54, John 6:55, John 6:56? If not, then I think your position is inconsistent.

Moreover, Christ, the New Adam, is fully human, yet sinless. So clearly the New Adam is not included in the "all" who have sinned.

Since Mary is the New Eve, as the historic Church--the source of the N.T. Canon-- teaches, it makes sense that she also would be an exception to the rule, by God's grace.

Moreover, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says that "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ all will be brought to life".

The word "all" is used twice, yet is not promising that absolutely every person will be saved.

Or do you claim that Scripture promises universal salvation?

You also state: "God does not share His glory with anyone".

Where does the Bible state that?

I also don't know where the Bible says--as you do-- that the Church is not dependent on Mary.

 

[JoeP222w]

You state: "In the context, Paul is clearly referring to all human beings that ever lived in the absolute sense".

I think that the Bible and the historic Church don't say this.

If you are going to take Scripture absolutely literally, then I take it you accept literally John 6:53, John 6:54, John 6:55, John 6:56? If not, then I think your position is inconsistent.

Moreover, Christ, the New Adam, is fully human, yet sinless. So clearly the New Adam is not included in the "all" who have sinned.

Since Mary is the New Eve, as the historic Church--the source of the N.T. Canon-- teaches, it makes sense that she also would be an exception to the rule, by God's grace.

Moreover, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says that "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ all will be brought to life".

The word "all" is used twice, yet is not promising that absolutely every person will be saved.

Or do you claim that Scripture promises universal salvation?

You also state: "God does not share His glory with anyone".

Where does the Bible state that?

I also don't know where the Bible says--as you do-- that the Church is not dependent on Mary.

"I think that the Bible and the historic Church don't say this."

And there is the fundamental problem. You appear to not accept the Bible as the final authority.

"If you are going to take Scripture absolutely literally, then I take it you accept literally John 6:53, John 6:54, John 6:55, John 6:56? If not, then I think your position is inconsistent."

The Bible uses more than 40 different types of literary genres. I believe that the Bible is the absolute word of God. But I also believe that the Bible speaks in literal terms, metaphors, hyperbole, irony, prose, poetic, parables, law, psalms, alliteration, similies, apocalyptic, prophesy, symbolic and other genres of writing. Contextually the passages you refer to in John 6 is metaphorical and/or symbolic. And that is not inconsistent.

"Moreover, Christ, the New Adam, is fully human, yet sinless. So clearly the New Adam is not included in the "all" who have sinned."

Jesus is not included in the "all" who have sinned because He is not just human. Jesus is also fully God, and so, He was perfectly obedient to the Father.

"Since Mary is the New Eve, as the historic Church--the source of the N.T. Canon-- teaches, it makes sense that she also would be an exception to the rule, by God's grace."

Again, back to the first point, there is nothing in the Bible that supports Mary as the "New Eve". And she is not an exception to the rule.

"Moreover, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says that "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ all will be brought to life".

The word "all" is used twice, yet is not promising that absolutely every person will be saved."

The scriptures uses "all" in many locations, but "all" does not always mean every human being that has ever existed. An analogy: A mother is driving her 3 children to school. As they get in the car,every buckles up and the mom gets in the drivers seat. She says to the children, "Are we all here?". In the context, she is referring to the 3 children. Clearly she does not mean the entirety of humanity, as every human being would not fit in the car. So, the world "all" has different meanings, most often based on the context. In the passage in 1 Corinthians 15:22, the first "all" refers to every human being, while the second "all" mean those whom God has elected/chosen to salvation, so no, not every human being that has ever lived will be saved.

"Or do you claim that Scripture promises universal salvation?"

In no way do I claim such a thing, because if universal salvation was true, then Christ died a horrible, gruesome death for absolutely no reason whatsoever.


"You also state: "God does not share His glory with anyone".

Where does the Bible state that?"

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.
Exodus 34:14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),

"I also don't know where the Bible says--as you do-- that the Church is not dependent on Mary."

I did not say that the Bible specifically says that "the Church is not dependent on Mary". But the nature and character of God is such that He is not dependent on any human effort to do His will. And Jesus said He will build the church. He did not say He will build the church, while depending on Mary or with Mary's help, or any other person help or dependence.

 

[patricius79]

"I think that the Bible and the historic Church don't say this."

And there is the fundamental problem. You appear to not accept the Bible as the final authority.

I don't accept the doctrine of Sola Scriptura because it is not Biblical.

I find that people who espouse it go by many human oral traditions rather than Scripture Alone, which says: 2 Thessalonians 2:15

I find that Protestantism didn't begin until the 1500s, more than 1400 hundred years after the death of Christ.

"If you are going to take Scripture absolutely literally, then I take it you accept literally John 6:53, John 6:54, John 6:55, John 6:56? If not, then I think your position is inconsistent."

The Bible uses more than 40 different types of literary genres. I believe that the Bible is the absolute word of God. But I also believe that the Bible speaks in literal terms, metaphors, hyperbole, irony, prose, poetic, parables, law, psalms, alliteration, similies, apocalyptic, prophesy, symbolic and other genres of writing. Contextually the passages you refer to in John 6 is metaphorical and/or symbolic. And that is not inconsistent.

The Bible doesn't say that John 6:53, etc, is not literal

"Moreover, Christ, the New Adam, is fully human, yet sinless. So clearly the New Adam is not included in the "all" who have sinned."

Jesus is not included in the "all" who have sinned because He is not just human. Jesus is also fully God, and so, He was perfectly obedient to the Father.[

It sounds like we agree that the "all" in Romans 3:23 does not include absolutely every human, since there is an exception for Christ, who is fully human and also God.

"Since Mary is the New Eve, as the historic Church--the source of the N.T. Canon-- teaches, it makes sense that she also would be an exception to the rule, by God's grace."

Again, back to the first point,Again, back to the first point, there is nothing in the Bible that supports Mary as the "New Eve".And she is not an exception to the rule.

The Bible doesn't state what you say here:

"Again, back to the first point, there is nothing in the Bible that supports Mary as the 'New Eve'. And she is not an exception to the rule."

I won't follow such oral traditions.

"Moreover, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says that "As in Adam all die, so too in Christ all will be brought to life".

The word "all" is used twice, yet is not promising that absolutely every person will be saved."

The scriptures uses "all" in many locations, but "all" does not always mean every human being that has ever existed. .

I'm glad we agree that 'all' does not always mean every human being that has ever existed.

"You also state: "God does not share His glory with anyone".

Where does the Bible state that?"

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.
Exodus 34:14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),

John 17:22

The Bible also states that we should seek for glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works.


Romans 2:6, Romans 2:7.

"I also don't know where the Bible says--as you do-- that the Church is not dependent on Mary."

I did not say that the Bible specifically says that "the Church is not dependent on Mary". But the nature and character of God is such that He is not dependent on any human effort to do His will.

I hear you state: "But the nature and character of God is such that He is not dependent on any human effort to do His will."


I think the Bible doesn't say that. God can and did choose to depend on Mary to bring His Son into the world.

God is Sovereign, and can choose to work through free people just as He Wills.

Jesus is fully God. He is also fully human, and as such depended on His Mother, Mary.

The historic Church teaches that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces, the Mother of God, the New Eve.

I believe her.

 

[justinangel]

"Do you believe that God has existed incarnate eternally?"
I am not sure. But I do believe that Jesus has eternally existed. Is my understanding a pre-requisite of God's truth? No. Do I have a whole lot to learn about God? Absolutely, yes.

The Son of Man hasn't existed eternally. He was born in Bethlehem. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth" (Jn 1:1, 14). Jesus was "made of a woman" (Gal 4:4). The divine Word was to be called Jesus after he had been conceived in Mary's womb and she gave birth to him. "You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus" (Lk 1:31). So, no, I don't believe Jesus (God incarnate) has existed eternally. Our Lord chose to rely on Mary to be made man, though he could have been formed out of the earth as Adam had been and still be a genuine human being. Mary was not chosen merely to serve as some type of surrogate mother. Her faith working through love had a far more important role to play in the Incarnation than her giving birth to Jesus. (Luke 1:45; 11:27-28).

Protestants reject Marian dogmas and doctrines because there is no biblical support of them.

Protestants reject Catholic Marian dogmas because they can't see any biblical support for them. They conflict with essential Protestant doctrines that have absolutely no biblical support and were unheard of in Christendom for 1500 years. These novel doctrines all stem from the mortal idea of justification by faith alone, which Scripture unequivocally rejects. "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" (James 2:24).

Jesus is fully God and fully Man. He was not merely a vessel. He is God.

Monophysitism is the heretical Christological position that, after the union of the divine and the human in the Incarnation, Jesus, as the incarnation of the eternal Son or Word (Logos) of God, had only a single "nature" which was either divine or a synthesis of divine and human. But Jesus had a distinct human nature that co-existed with his divine nature in an undivided union of natures. Jesus was made perfect in his humanity by learning obedience. He aligned his human will with his heavenly Father's will. It is in his humanity that Jesus acts as both priest and victim. "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou will" (Mt. 26:39). "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

Esther collaborated with God to save the Israelites from certain genocide at the hands of the Persians. God answered her prayer because she had always observed His will in "steadfast love for Him", which the ancient Hebrew word for faith (emunah) means. "I, your servant, have never eaten at the table of Haman, nor have I graced the banquet of the king or drunk the wine of libations. From the day I was brought here till now, your servant has had no joy except in you, Lord, God of Abraham. O God, whose power is over all, hear the voice of those in despair. Save us from the power of the wicked, and deliver me from my fear" (Est. C, 28-29). Esther foreshadows Mary, who collaborated with the Holy Spirit through faith to help save the human race from impending spiritual death. The angel Gabriel appeared to Mary because she had found favour with God (Lk. 1:30). Because of Mary's faith working through love, God honoured her consent to be the mother of the Son. There can be no true faith without human free will being moved by grace. Mary's being covered by the Holy Spirit upon her salutary and meritorious consent bears divine testimony that God was pleased with her obedient act of faith.

God was no less pleased with Jesus' act of human obedience to the Father when he came out of the water after he was baptized. "After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased" (Mt. 3:16-17). The Spirit bore testimony to the divine messiahship and sonship of Jesus only after he had humbly submitted himself to being baptized in his humanity in obedience to the will of the Father. God acknowledged His Divine Son and confirmed his identity because of his human act of obedience. In his divine Person, Jesus had no need to be baptized. But in order to redeem the world in strict justice, Jesus was required to align his human will with his heavenly Father's will. He acted as the Son of Man - the new Adam and head of the human race. In his humanity, Jesus was no less a servant of God than Mary and Esther were. "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations" (Isa. 42:1).

We believe the Bible is the inerrant and all sufficient word of God. And when man teaches a doctrine that is not found to be in the Bible, that doctrine is suspect as being the truth, because it comes from fallible man.

Isn't the man who judges that the other man's doctrine is not to be found in the Bible and is suspect of being true fallible himself? The written word of God is indeed inerrant, but the private scriptural interpretations of men aren't. The sad truth is that in Protestantism the 'Bible alone' theory does not work. History has demonstrated that through the centuries and decades denominations splinter and new denominations are added to the index, all because fallible men have ruled that the doctrines of other fallible men are unbiblical and false. Yet how can fallible men know which of them have grasped the divine truth? Human reasoning is unqualified for the task, and not one of these fallible men can rightly claim that they have been singled out and personally enlightened by the Holy Spirit. This would be neo-Gnostic of them, and unbiblical to say the least. Meanwhile, the Bible itself does not teach us that the written word of God is all sufficient, and that the Bible alone is all we need. "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit" (2 Pet 1:20-21). “So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures” (3:15-16).

The so-called Protestant reformers certainly distorted Paul's letters, while they couldn't agree with each other on a number of fine points. Jesus founded his Church on Peter and the Apostles so that the transmission of divine revelation wouldn't have to depend on the outcome of a perpetual course of hermeneutics driven by the human reasoning of fallible men.

We must bear in mind that the Catholic Church preceded the NT. That can't be said for Protestant denominations. So logically the idea that Scripture is the sole and final rule of faith applies only in Protestantism; though this rule has served no real practical purpose, but rather has torn non-Catholic Christendom apart. Divinely inspired members of the Church wrote the books of the NT, just as divinely inspired authors wrote the OT. It is this Church which infallibly produced the NT and the entire canon of Scripture that is guided by the Holy Spirit to guard and interpret the entire Bible. Such a divinely guided interpreter under the auspice of the Magisterium is absolutely necessary, if Christians are to understand the Bible properly in a visible unity of faith.

The proper central teaching office of the Church is infallible, insofar it is guided by the Holy Spirit and is divinely protected from teaching error. Jesus promised he would send the Paraclete to guide his apostles and their valid successors in all truth. “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come" (Jn 16:12-13). Sacred Tradition is the inerrant unwritten word of God - that which the Holy Spirit "declares" to the Church. Both sacred Scripture and sacred Tradition are infallible mediums of divine revelation that form a single deposit of faith. How either medium is to be interpreted rests with the College of Bishops in union with the Pope. This is how it was in the first millennium with the convocation of the great ecumenical councils of the Church, beginning with the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. Christ called Peter to be the chief shepherd of his Church (John 21:15–17). He gave Peter the task of strengthening the other apostles in their faith, so that the faith of the Church would never go astray (Luke 22:31–32). Peter led the Church in proclaiming the gospel and making decisions (Acts 2:1–41, 15:7–12). The important decisions reached by the fathers at the ecumenical councils pertaining to universal doctrines had to be ratified by the Bishop of Rome.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/

Additionally, the early church followed nothing of the modern day Roman Catholic Marian dogmas and doctrines.

Are you sure about that? Or are you repeating what you've been told by your pastor?
Prior to the Canon of Scripture:

Mary, the Mother of God

Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (c. A.D. 110).

Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and anti-Christ, 4 (A.D. 200)

Alexander of Alexandria, Epistle to Alexander, 12 (A.D. 324)

Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, X:19 (c. A.D. 350)

Gregory of Nyssa, On Virginity, 14 (A.D. 370)

Epiphanius, The man well-anchored, 75 (A.D. 374)

Ambrose, Virginity, II:6 (c. A.D. 378)

Gregory of Nazianzus, To Cledonius, 101 (A.D. 382)

Mary, Ever-Virgin

Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 19 (c. A.D. 110)

Irenaeus, Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, 54 (A.D. 189)

Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, Bk. Vll, Ch. XVl (c. A.D. 202)

Hippolytus, Against Beron and Helix, Fragment Vlll (c, A.D. 210)

Origen, Commentary on John, I:6 (A.D. 232)

Athanasius, Orations against the Arians, II:70 (A.D. 362)

John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370)

Gregory of Nyssa, On Virginity, 13 (A.D. 371)

Epiphanius, Well Anchored Man, 120 (A.D. 374)

Basil, Homily In Sanctum Christi generationem, 5 (ante A.D. 379)

Jerome, The Perpetual Virginity of Mary Against Helvedius, 21 (A.D 383)

Mary’s Immaculate Conception & sinlessness

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33.12 (inter A.D. 180/189)

Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and anti-Christ, 4 (A.D. 200)

Ibid., Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235)

Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370)

Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373)

Gregory Thaumaturgus, Homily On the Annunciation, 2 (c. A.D. 386)

Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388)

The Assumption of Mary into Heaven

Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:22.4 (inter A.D. 180/189)

Ibid., Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, 33 (A.D. 190)

Hippolytus, Commentary on Psalm 22 (A.D. 235)

Pseudo-Melito, The Passing of the Virgin 16:2-17 (A.D. 300)

Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 379)

Gregory Thaumaturgus, Homily On the Annunciation, 2 (c. A.D. 386)

Timothy of Jerusalem, Homily on Simeon and Anna (ante. A.D. 400)

Mary, the new Eve & Mother of the Church

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155)

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180)

Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and anti-Christ, 4 (A.D. 200)

Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, I:6 (A.D.202)

Origen, Commentary on Matthew, 10:17 (A.D. 244)

Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, 2:24-25 (A.D. 355)

Gregory of Nyssa, On Virginity, 2 (A.D. 371)

Ephraem, Nisbene Hymns, 27:8 (ante A.D. 373)

Epiphanius, Against Eighty Heresies, 78, 9 (c. A.D. 374)

Basil, To the Sozopolitans, Epistle 261 (A.D. 377)

Ambrose, On Virginity, 2:15 (A.D. 377)

Gregory of Nazianzen, To Cledonius, Epistle 101 (A.D. 382)

Jerome, To Eustochium, Epistle 22:19,38 (A.D. 384)

Mary, new Ark of the Covenant

Hippolytus, On Daniel, 6 (inter A.D. 202/212)

Dionysius of Alexandria, Respons. ad Quoest. v. Pauli Samos (ante. A.D. 264)

Ephrem, Rhythm lll (ante. A.D. 373)

Gregory Thaumaturgus, Homily On the Annunciation, 1 (c. A.D. 386)

Mary: Mediatrix, Advocatrix, co-Redemptrix

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155).

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180)

Sub Tuum Praesidium, From Rylands Papyrus, Egypt (c. A.D. 250)

Ephrem, Syri opera graeca et latine, 3 (A.D. 373)

Gregory of Nyssa, On Gregory the WonderWorker (A.D. 380)

Ambrose, Epistle 49, 2 (ante. A.D. 390)

The Catholic Church is the early Church.

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[justinangel]

Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. Mary is not a co-mediatrix. This is a false doctrine of the Roman church, with no biblical support.

Again, you reject the Catholic doctrine of Mary being Mediatrix of all grace because the biblical support you dismiss fails to square with your novel presuppositions. This Marian doctrine, in other words, doesn’t fit well with your exaggerated idea of sola-Christo.

The Catholic Church professes that Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and humankind (1 Tim 2:5), by which St. Paul means that Christ alone has redeemed the world and has reconciled the human race with the Father in strict justice (meritum de condigno) by serving as a ransom for the sins of the world with the shedding of his most precious blood (2:6). However, our Lord’s mediation in his humanity does not preclude the intercession of the faithful by right of friendship with God (meritum de congruo) in and through the merits of Christ by prayer and sacrifice for the salvation of all souls (1 Tim 2:1-4). In other words, the apostle has no intention of emphasizing that Jesus is the only mediator in an unqualified sense in the economy of salvation. The Christian faithful are indeed called to participate in our Lord’s mediation as active and living members of our Lord’s Mystical Body who partake of the divine life. This prerogative is conferred by right of adoption as the sons and daughters of God, since it is in his humanity – not divinity – that Christ as head of his Body intercedes for us all before the Father as both eternal High Priest and sacrificial victim. The many graces our Lord has merited for us bestow merit on our spiritual works of mercy. "For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" (Eph. 2:10).

You also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2, 5

Exegete Manuel Miguens has accurately pointed out that v.5 translated from the Greek should read: “There is one and the same God for all, and there is one and the same mediator for all.” Christ alone serves as a ransom for us all with his sacred blood (v.6) as the paschal lamb of God. The Father’s merciful love and the Son’s obedient act of atonement are for both Jew and Gentile alike. In v.5, the Greek word for “one” is heis which denotes “a sameness of function”. If St. Paul had meant that there is numerically only one mediator in the divine plan of salvation, he would have chosen the word monos instead, for it “signifies ‘only’ in the sense of exclusive uniqueness.”

Hence, Catholics affirm that Christ is the only mediator between God and man. By this we mean what Paul intended to say: there is only one mediator who is such by very nature, being both true God and true man, whose work is necessary, and without whom, in God's plan, there could be no salvation. Christ is the only mediator who depends on no one else for the efficacy of his intercession.

Mary differs in three ways. First, she is only a creature, but it was appropriate that God freely choose her to serve as Mediatrix because he had made her Mother of the God-man, the Saviour of the whole world; it was Mary, who on behalf of the whole human race, consented to God's plan of salvation by proclaiming herself the handmaid of the Lord. Second, even though her role was not necessary, since Christ is the perfect Redeemer and the perfect Mediator, whose sacrifice is more than sufficient, God freely chose Mary to associate her with the Son. We cannot ignore His will. Third, Mary’s ability to do anything comes entirely from her Son and depends on the fruit of his mediation.

We the faithful are not passive spectators in the divine work of salvation, concerned only with our own souls in our personal relationship with Jesus, who alone acts as mediator between God and humankind, but rather active participants in association with him as fellow workers with God ( 1 Cor. 3:15). Christ is the mediator par excellence as head of his Mystical Body, while we members who serve the head mediate before him in a subordinate capacity. The Father honours our merits in collaboration with those of the Son, but not in coordination with his merits. St. James writes in his Epistle (5:16): “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.” The evangelist concurs with St. Peter that our being built up into a spiritual house makes our prayers (petitions) and sacrifices efficacious. The Gospel of John implicitly reveals this truth in the narrative of the wedding feast at Cana where we have Mary, the mother of our Lord, presented allegorically as a factual mediator and physical channel of grace by her solicitation.

There is no biblical support for this thought (Mary is the advocate of Eve. )

Mary vindicated Eve.

"He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word.' And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him."
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155)

"For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180)

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[justinangel]

I disagree that Mary gave her consent as if God needed Mary's permission. That would mean Mary has a higher authority than God. That would be idolatry.

If that’s the case, then Eve couldn’t have freely consented to what the serpent desired of her, since it would mean that God would have needed her permission to expel her from paradise along with Adam. What you propose makes absolutely no sense. Further, you make it sound like God has to save the world – that justice demands it. But the truth is that God desires to save everyone in His mercy. Salvation is a gift from God which we have the option to accept or refuse. Mary chose to receive back for us that which Eve had chosen to reject: life with God. Blessed was she who believed that what was spoken to her by God’s angel would be fulfilled (cf. Lk 1:45).

See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Deuteronomy 30, 15-20

For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we wake or sleep we might live with him.
1 Thessalonians 5, 9-10

Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith.
1 Peter 5, 8-9

Proof from the Apostolic Tradition

“The wicked man is justly punished, having become depraved of himself; and the just man is worthy of praise for his honest deeds, since it was in his free choice that he did not transgress the will of God.”
Tatian the Syrian, Address to the Greeks 7 [A.D. 170]

Mary submitted to God's will. She did not necessarily "align" her will with God, she obeyed God's will. It was not synergism.

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
2 Corinthians 7, 1

Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God... Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming... But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator... Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience... And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful... And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Colossians 3:3, 5-6, 8-9, 12, 14-15, 17

The injunctions which I've highlighted in bold refer to our cooperation with God's grace. The fact that Paul is enjoining his listeners to act in a prescribed way presupposes cooperation on their part. Monergism is the belief that in our regeneration, the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ independent of any cooperation from our un-regenerated human nature. This Protestant belief system arose with Calvin and Luther in the 16th century. In Synergism, on the other hand, the grace of God that regenerates us requires our cooperation, through our freedom of will. Because we have this freedom, we can either choose to cooperate or not. This Catholic, and I believe Eastern Orthodox, belief system has been with the Church since apostolic time. I can see why you object to the thought of Mary aligning her will with God's will, and so there was nothing meritorious about her fiat at the Annunciation. You mistakenly believe that our human ability to believe and accept the word of God comes solely from divine grace (sola gratia) after the elect have been regenerated without any cooperation on their part because of their totally corrupt nature. The human will, in other words, is held in complete bondage by a totally depraved human nature which requires that it be determined to act by Divine intervention. Thus all we can do is submit to the will of God without any control. We are God's robots, so to speak, which function by a push of the button. Human obedience amounts to nothing more than an automated response. However, if this is so, faith can no longer be a theological virtue. Nor can our love for God hold any significance in our salvation, since by nature we can't freely love.

Yet we read in Scripture that the faith we must have in order to be saved is a genuinely repentant faith. We cannot be mindful of our sins and thereby truly sorry for them if God alone is responsible for how we think and feel. Repentance is much more than a thought process. It is also an act by which we ask God for his mercy and forgiveness because of our love for Him. This is all worthless and vain if we have no active part in collaborating with the Holy Spirit and all our acts of faith are determined by God. Yet Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). Regeneration occurs when we are baptized, not before we receive the sacrament of initiation. Catholics have always believed that the grace which regenerates us requires our cooperation by the exercise of our free will. Grace first prompts the will and moves us as we cooperate by exercising our freedom. Such cooperation is possible since our nature, although wounded, is not totally corrupt. God is responsible only insofar He takes the initiative. Our love for God cannot be genuine unless we possess a freedom of will. There can be no obedience unless we are free to choose. And without love obedience holds no salvific value. Jesus says, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (Jn. 14:15). He adds, "He who hears my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me" (Jn. 14:21). "If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, as I have kept the Father's commandments" (Jn. 15:10). We must obey God and keep His commandments just as Jesus did, that is by collaborating with the Holy Spirit and freely exercising our human will.

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Romans 12, 2

Proof from the Apostolic Tradition

"All indeed depends on God, but not so that our free-will is hindered. 'If then it depend on God,' (one says), 'why does He blame us?' On this account I said, 'so that our free-will is no hindered.' It depends then on us, and on Him For we must first choose the good; and then He leads us to His own. He does not anticipate our choice, lest our free-will should be outraged. But when we have chosen, then great is the assistance he brings to us...For it is ours to choose and to wish; but God's to complete and to bring to an end."
John Chrysostom, Homily on Hebrews, 12:3 (A.D. 403)

But you cannot read a passage in isolation. The rest of the chapter, Paul refers to an inward change ("circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter" (Romans 2:29). Salvation is not of works, so that none may boast (Ephesians 2). Works are the fruit of salvation, not the root. The root of salvation is solely in God's grace and the fruit does not exist without the root. Yes, everyone will be judged according to their works and by their works (if they are not in Christ), they will be condemned.

Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refers to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in charity and grace through faith in Christ. Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which refers to the Mosaic law or Torah (legal and moral teachings and ceremonial observances) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. In this sense the law is a curse. This is confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James uses "ergois agathois." He is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) done in charity and grace which are not intended to oblige God to us. Hence, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. In Romans 2, 6, 10, 13, Paul is saying that God shall judge every person - Jew and Gentile - according to how well they have observed the spirit of the moral law which is written in their hearts within the system of grace.

In 2 Corinthians 9:6, Paul says, in connection with God's judgment, that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Hence, our good works done in sanctifying grace are necessary for both our justification and salvation. They lead towards salvation, and are not the result of being saved. Our deeds correspond with our final destiny . "God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them"(Heb. 6:10). All depends on how well we cooperate with God's actual helping graces.

Ephesians 2:8-9 refers to the unmerited initial grace of justification and forgiveness gained for us by Christ. Faith is the root of justification, and faith excludes “works of law.” Faith does not exclude the other kinds of works which James has in mind. Faith comes first, but good works done in charity and grace complete it (Eph. 2:10). Fruits (good works) increase our justification. Paul tells us these works increase our “credit,” which is also called “merit.” These merits bring forth more graces from God, which increase our sanctification and justification. But the fruits, works, and merits are all borne from God’s unmerited and undeserved mercy gained for us by Jesus Christ. " Not that I desire your gifts; what I desire is that more be credited to your account" (Phil. 4:17).

Proof from the Apostolic Tradition

Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. 'For God,' saith [the Scripture], 'resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.' Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words."
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30 (A.D.98)

"Now I beseech thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to add [speed] to thy course, and that thou ever pray for all men that they may be saved, and that thou demand things which are befitting, with all assiduity both of the flesh and spirit. Be studious of unity, than which nothing is more precious. Bear with all men, even as our Lord beareth with thee. Show patience with all men in love, as [indeed] thou doest. Be steadfast in prayer. Ask for more understanding than that which thou [already] hast. Be watchful, as possessing a spirit which sleepeth not. Speak with every man according to the will of God. Bear the infirmities of all men as a perfect athlete; for where the labour is great, the gain is also great."
Ignatius of Antioch, To Polycarp, 1 (A.D. 110 )

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[justinangel]

"Hence, Mary acted on our behalf, as well as for her own salvation"
I see no support of Mary acting on our behalf, in the scriptures. She was obedient to God, but she was not our representative.

Mary was not associated with Jesus in his redemptive work merely by serving as a physiological instrument. She was not a physical means to an end at the expense of her human dignity and being created in the image of God. Mary's association with her divine Son was moral, by way of her free, salutary, and meritorious consent. What the angel Gabriel presented Mary with was not an order or directive, but rather a proposition which she was free to either accept or refuse. Eve, too, was presented with an offer, but from the fallen angel, which she was free to either accept or refuse. Both women were in the position to choose between life and death. Eve chose life, but only after the serpent had deceived her into accepting his false meaning of life. For her life meant replacing God with herself. What she desired was more important to her than what God willed and the measure by which she would find true happiness. As a result, Eve helped bring physical and spiritual death into the world by being unfaithful to God through self-idolization and the selfish pursuit of vain happiness. But Mary's soul "magnified the Lord". She, on the other hand, understood that true happiness could only be found in life with God. She was confident that God's will for her was the only measure by which to be happy and blessed. There was no place for selfishness or room for personal idols in her soul. God was the object of her life. Mary understood the true meaning of life in all its fullness. Thus she received the word of the angel with faith and joy. She conceived Jesus physically because she had already conceived him in her heart. The divine Word became incarnate because the word of God ruled in her life. And so she brought the Redeemer into the world to help undo what Eve had wrought. She rejoiced in God her Saviour who would reconcile the world with God and regenerate mankind.

Hence, Eve contributed morally to the fall of mankind (Adam) by succumbing to the temptation of the Devil, by disobedience to the will of God, and enticing Adam to partake of the forbidden fruit. Mary co-operated morally in our redemption by her faith in the angel Gabriel's words and by her free consent to the mystery of redemption and the Incarnation. Mary is not the principal and perfective cause of our redemption no more than Eve is of the fall of mankind. In the words of theologian Father Garrigou-Lagrange: "she could not redeem us in justice (de condigno), since for that a theandric act of infinite value which could belong only to an incarnate Divine Person was required. But she is really a secondary cause of salvation, dispositive, and subordinate to Jesus." He adds that Mary is not subordinate to Jesus merely in the sense that she is by nature inferior to him, but also in the sense that she concurred in saving the world in grace which proceeded from the merits of her divine Son, and so acted in him, with him, and through him. Mary's association with Jesus in the redemption is immeasurably greater than the association between Jesus and the Apostles, because it belongs to the hypostatic order. Mary collaborated in the common activity of the Trinity. For this reason, above all, the Catholic Church has designated Mary Queen of Apostles.

Proof from the Apostolic Tradition

"He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word.' And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him."
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155)

"In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.' But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise 'they were both naked, and were not ashamed,' inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180)

And if the God-bearing flesh was not ordained to be assumed of the lump of Adam, what need was there of the Holy Virgin?"
Basil, To the Sozopolitans, Epistle 261 (A.D. 377)

"In the grace of God, she temporally merited for us the coming of the Saviour into the world."

This language ("merited for us"), again, is not supported in scripture.

In general, merit means the right to a reward. The meritorious act confers a right to a reward, though it does not itself produce it. Supernatural merit - which presupposes habitual grace and charity (Lk. 1:28) - is a right to a supernatural reward. The highest kind of supernatural merit was that of the Incarnate Word, which was perfectly and fully worthy of a reward: eternal life with God. This is the perfect and more than sufficient act of charity of the God-Man, the new Adam and head of the human race. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive" (1 Cor 15:22). Christ's merit (perfecte de condigno) is perfect and most worthy of a reward, since his act of charity is the act of a divine Person. It is at least equal in value to the reward. As head, the reward Jesus merited was not for himself, but for the entire human race. Mary, on the other hand, merited grace for mankind by a merit of becomingness. This merit is founded on charity and friendship with God rather than on justice. Since Mary was in a state of grace when the angel appeared to her, and being in a state of habitual grace means that a person does God's will and seeks only what He desires, it was in keeping with the proprieties or rights of friendship that God should do His will in saving mankind for her sake more than for ours (the principle of predilection).

We have an example of this lower kind of merit (de congruo proprie) in James 5: 16: "Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much." Again, "First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men ... This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who desires all men (everyone) to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2: 1-4). God wills to cooperate with us. Because of His fatherly love for us, He invites us to participate with Him in saving souls. He desires everyone to be saved by coming to the knowledge of the truth. 'Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord 'worked with them' (sunergountos) and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it' (Mk 16:20). Thus, as our spiritual mother, Eve's anti-type, Mary could merit for us de congruo what Jesus had merited de condigno by cooperating with her Son in his work of salvation. She merited what any mother could merit for her children by her act of charity in the state of grace.

Proof from the Apostolic Tradition

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth."
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9 (A.D. 350)

"God does not have to save us, but in His love and mercy He desires to save the whole world (1 Tim. 2:4)"

Meaning His elect, according to His will, His nature, His desires. This does not mean every single human being that has ever lived.

Really? Aren't the elect already guaranteed salvation as you understand it? So why bother having to pray for them and entreating God on their behalf if they are already passively saved? By "all men", Paul means everyone for whom Christ died, and we are to pray especially for those who haven't yet come to the knowledge of the divine truth. Christ's atonement isn't only for the elect, but for the whole world. It is unlimited. 'For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him' (Jn 3:16-17). 'He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world' (1 Jn 2:2). Whoever chooses to believe in Christ shall not perish, provided they persevere in faith. Salvation is also conditional. Our cooperation with God's grace is necessary. In his address to those who have come to the knowledge of the divine truth, having certainly been predestined to grace (not glory), John writes in his First Epistle: "But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1:7). Notice that John says "we" meaning also himself. Not even the apostle believed in eternal security. He owned he couldn't be absolutely sure that he was counted among those predestined to glory. Only God can infallibly know that.

God intended to create a world in which each person would be free to respond to his grace as a sign of their love for Him. There can be no true love without human free will and liberty. The fall of Adam and Eve was a consequence of their moral freedom which God intended that they should possess in order to truly love Him and make their abode with Him. Because of the fall,which God foresaw when he created the world, it was His predestined (not predetermined) plan and His grace that went before Him to enable us to be saved. By His antecedent will, God desires that everyone be saved. Therefore, a person must wilfully reject God’s ‘predestined’ plan for his salvation in order to be damned. God had intended that a soul be saved this way: by not rejecting His word and resisting His grace. In consequence of the reprobate’s act God has predestined him to eternal damnation by His consequent will. With this will we can perceive God as not being self-contradictory – willing two different things at once – but as completely faithful to Himself. God does desire that everyone come to repentance and be saved, but He is also a just God who doesn’t tolerate sin and will punish those who refuse to repent. ‘The soul who sins is the one who will die’ (Ezek. 18:4). Thus what God has not intended is to predetermine the eternal destiny of souls, which is why He appeals to us to cooperate with His saving grace: “Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!” (Ezek. 18:32). All you propose can be found in Calvin's gospel. But you won't find any confirmation of it in the Apostolic Tradition of the Catholic Church. What doesn't belong to sacred Tradition isn't contained in sacred Scripture (Lk 1:1-4).

Proof from the Apostolic Tradition

"Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time."
Didache, 16 (A.D. 90)

"And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For 'cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.'"
Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 10 ( A.D. 110)

"Thou art made partaker of the Holy Vine. Well then, if thou abide in the Vine, thou growest as a fruitful branch; but if thou abide not, thou wilt be consumed by the fire. Let us therefore bear fruit worthily. God forbid that in us should be done what befell that barren fig-tree, that Jesus come not even now and curse us for our barrenness."
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, I:4 (A.D. 350)


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[justinangel]

"Protestants who believe Mary had nothing to do with the salvation..."

This is a bit of a false characterization. Mary had a very important role. But salvation comes from Jesus Christ and Him alone. If God had chosen another means to save mankind, He could have easily done so. There was no absolute dependence on Mary. She was merely a sinful fallen human like all of us. But God chose her according to His will and His grace, not because of anything special in Mary, in and of herself.

You believe Mary’s important role was just providing flesh and blood for the divine Word. And even if this were so, God still would have had to depend on her, wouldn’t He? God could have fashioned the Son of Man out of the clay of the earth as He had Adam, but instead God willed that His Son be “made of a woman” (Gal. 4:4). It’s interesting that Paul doesn’t write “born of Mary”. I believe he uses the generic word in allusion to Eve and with the first Messianic prophecy in mind. “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed” (Gen 3:15). Mary’s role in the economy of salvation is connected with Eve’s role in the fall of man. It was through a woman that Satan managed to persuade Adam to disobey God and fall from His grace. Thus God decreed that it should be through a woman that mankind be restored to friendship with God. God blamed the serpent for having instigated the fall by tempting Eve and using her to entice Adam. So in His wisdom, God willed that what Satan had wrought should be undone initially through a woman by her obedient act of faith. The woman He predestined to act as Eve’s advocate and vindicator was Mary. The mother of our Lord could not be Eve’s anti-type or have had a redemptive role to play in the Divine plan if she had been sinful and in a fallen state herself. I believe God is absolutely perfect.

God willed that Mary be at enmity with Satan, that is she be in a complete state of hostile opposition with him. To have no affinity with the serpent, Mary had to be as sinless as Eve was before she sinned against God and offended Him. Jesus called his mother “Woman” at the beginning (Cana) and end (Golgotha) of his ministry on Earth because this is what Adam called his wife before she fell from grace. He called her Eve after the fall, at which time she became “the mother of all the living”. Eve is the mother of all who have contracted the stain of original sin. There was no such stain in either Jesus or Mary, the new Adam and the new Eve. Both the Son and the Mother had to be in the original state of justice and holiness themselves to serve as advocates of fallen Adam and Eve. As a human creature, Mary vindicated fallen humanity, whereas Jesus justified the human race in his divine Person. He took his holy flesh from his holy mother when being made of her, so that in his assumed spotless humanity he could redeem the world in his divine Person. Bodily Jesus was formed of incorruptible wood, since his mother was exempt from putridity and corruption. The Divine Maternity is the sole reason for the singular privilege of Mary’s Immaculate Conception.

Proof from the Apostolic Tradition

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption."
Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235)

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother."
Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370)

And she cried out with a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!”
Luke 1, 42 [NAB]

And coming to her the angel said, “Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you.”
Luke 1, 28

The female vocative kecharitomene ( literally “most highly favoured by grace”) can be paraphrased as “enduringly endowed with grace” (cf. Blass and De Brunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament). It is because Mary was to be the mother of our Lord, that the perfect past participle does “show a completeness with a permanent result” (Blass & De Brunner) and denotes “continuance of a completed action” (cf. H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar). Moreover, since the expression kecharitomene is in the vocative case, the angel is addressing Mary as the embodiment of all that this expression denotes. When he greets her, he doesn’t call Mary by her name, but by her spiritual state. Our names are something that we have had since the beginning, and normally they are something that we keep until the end of our lives.

Blass and De Brunner have the morphological aspectual (not tense marked) stem of kecharitomene in mind: ke. This is the perfect stem of the root verb charitoo which may denote a perpetuation of a completed past action. The perfect stem is distinguished from the aorist stem which we have in Ephesians 1:6, for example: escharitosen: “He graced” or “has freely given grace”. In this active indicative form the aorist stem describes a completed action which has come to pass and is finished. It is temporal in aspect and a momentary result. The aorist stem does not signify a permanent state of grace. The perfect aspect, on the other hand, exclusively denotes a state which prevails after an event has taken place and which is caused by this event. Catholics believe this is the Immaculate Conception – the first instant when God fashioned and sanctified Mary’s soul in view of the foreseen merits of Christ on account of her election to the Divine Maternity.

The perfect may denote an action as already finished at the present time, but it may also express the continuance of the result down to the present time without necessarily ending there. Our Lord’s expression “It is written” is literally ‘It has been written’. And what has been written remains in force beyond the present time. Thus the perfect may implicitly include the future and be connected to it conceptually in its aspectual form. Ephesians 1:6 refers to our predestination to grace as opposed to glory. The active indicative aorist which modifies the root verb refutes the false idea of once-saved-always-saved. Not everyone perseveres in grace. Hence, escharitosen does not imply a permanent state of sanctifying grace for all believers.

The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on in full effect. The progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

The Greek perfect tense has to do with the person’s present condition or state. Thus Luke is telling us that the grace Mary was endowed with in the past is the state of grace she continues to exist in at the time of the Annunciation. Theologically we may assume that Mary remained in this state of grace after the angel departed, since he left as soon as Mary consented to be the mother of the Lord – the Divine Maternity being the reason for this singular endowment of grace. In Luke 1:30 the angel says, “Fear not Mary, for you have found favour with God.” In other words, the angel is reiterating what he said when he first greeted Mary, that God has bestowed grace on her as a favour for a special vocation. This vocation is the Divine Maternity which actualized in real time at the precise moment when Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word” (Luke 1:38). The completed action of having been bestowed with grace may continue on the condition that Mary actually is the mother of the Lord.

In his Apostolic Constitution, Ineffabilis Deus, 8 December 1854, Pope Pius lX cites the Divine Maternity as the “Supreme reason for the privilege” of the Immaculate Conception. We should keep in mind that when God predestined Mary to be the mother of Christ, He knew that she would pronounce her fiat that first instant He fashioned and sanctified her soul. The perfect tense itself does not function to indicate that this state of grace will necessarily continue to exist after the present time. Paul continues to be in the state of being crucified with Christ on the condition that Christ lives in him, and as long as he lives his life “by faith in the Son of God” (Gal. 2:20), just as Mary continues to be in the state of sanctifying grace provided she is the mother of the Lord.

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[justinangel]

"Mary is the neck in his Mystical Body"

Again, there is no Biblical support for this.

“But why am I so favoured, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.”
Luke 1, 43-44

Mary is the neck by which the body is joined to the head. Jesus exerts his power and strength on the body by channelling his grace through his Mother. The infant John the Baptist was sanctified by the infant in Mary’s womb through the sound of Mary’s greeting. All the graces we receive from Jesus are channelled through the mediation of our Blessed Mother.

In the above passage, Luke draws a parallel between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant. ‘David was afraid of the LORD that day and said, "How can the ark of the LORD ever come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9); ‘As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart’ (2 Sam. 6:19). The Ark of the Covenant was the primary channel of communication between God and the Israelites. Their restoration as a people required this physical means of communication. The purpose of the Ark was to symbolize YHWH’s visible throne on earth on which He would exercise His power and might. It was through the Ark that YHWH ruled and dictated his terms to the Israelites, and through it they received temporal blessings from God. YHWH dwelled in the Shekinah glory cloud between the wings of the cherubim above the Mercy Seat on the Ark. Here he communed with Moses and the High Priest.

Sing, Daughter Zion; shout aloud, Israel! Be glad and rejoice with all your heart, Daughter Jerusalem!
The LORD has taken away your punishment, he has turned back your enemy.
The LORD, the King of Israel, is with you; never again will you fear any harm. On that day they will say to Jerusalem, "Do not fear, Zion; do not let your hands hang limp.
The LORD your God is with you, the Mighty Warrior who saves. He will take great delight in you; in his love he will no longer rebuke you, but will rejoice over you with singing."
Zephaniah 3, 14-17 (cf. Lk 1: 46-49)

And coming to her the angel said, “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you… Fear not, Mary, for you have found favour with God.”
Luke 1, 28, 30

The Greek word used for “sing aloud” in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT) is the same word Luke uses for “Hail”: Chairo! (χαίρω). It can mean “to be full of cheer” and “rejoice”. Daughter Zion has cause to rejoice and be full of cheer, since the Lord is in her midst. Moreover, the Hebrew word for “midst” is gereb, ( קֶ֫רֶב ) which literally means “in the womb”. The same word is used in the OT to describe how God dwells in the midst of his people, and that is through the Ark of the Covenant. “And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst” (Ex. 25:8). Mary has no cause to fear, since the Lord is with her. God has chosen her to conceive in the womb and bear His Son. And it is through her womb that mankind shall be restored to grace and regenerated unto God by the birth of her divine Son. God chose to communicate Himself in the Person of Jesus and dwell in our midst through Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, and through her restore mankind to grace.

Proof from the Apostolic Tradition

The Word will become flesh, and the Son of God the son of man—the Pure One opening purely that pure womb, which generates men unto God.
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4, 33, 12 (A.D.180-190)

“At that time, the Savior coming from the Virgin, the Ark, brought forth His own Body into the world from that Ark, which was gilded with pure gold within by the Word, and without by the Holy Ghost; so that the truth was shown forth, and the Ark was manifested....And the Savior came into the world bearing the incorruptible Ark, that is to say His own body”
Hippolytus, On Daniel, 6 (ante. A.D. 235)

“As Christ our priest was not chosen by hand of man, so neither was His tabernacle framed by men, but was established by the Holy Ghost; and by the power of God is that tabernacle protected, to be had in everlasting remembrance, Mary, God’s Virgin Mother”
Dionysius of Alexandria, Respons. ad Quoest. v. Pauli Samos (ante. A,D. 264)

“The ark is verily the holy Virgin, gilded within and without, who received the treasure of universal sanctification. Arise, O Lord, from the Father’s bosom, to raise up again the ruined race of our first parent.”
Gregory Thaumaturgus, Orat. in Deip. Annunciat. (ante. A.D. 270)

Since Mary has been associated with Jesus in his whole work of redemption, she has merited by right of friendship with God all the graces that Jesus has merited for our salvation in strict justice. Mary’s ability to merit grace for others presupposes the state of grace in her who is meriting for us. She hasn’t laid her saving office aside in Heaven, since she herself merited bringing the living Source of all grace into the world. Mary has served as a channel of grace ever since she consented to be the mother of our Lord by her faith working through love. As our spiritual mother, Mary continues to prayerfully intercede for us before her Son. By the sound of her voice, we receive all the signal graces that we need to get to Heaven.

"Let us entrust ourselves with all our soul's affection to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin: let us all, with all our strength, beg her patronage, that, at the moment when on earth we surround her with our suppliant homage, she herself may deign in heaven to commend us with fervent prayer. For without any doubt she who merited to bring ransom for those who needed deliverance, can more than all the saints benefit by her favor those who have received deliverance."
Ambrose Autpert, Assumption of the Virgin, (ante A.D. 778)

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[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Without Eve there could be no Mary, Jesus or no people either. But Eve is not given any special title. Just my thoughts.

Well, Eve is incredibly important. She typifies the beatific ideal, the pure and the mother of all. This is why Mary is understood of as the New Eve, given this Marian title it is easy enough to anticipate the importance of Eve in the Christian religion. The Genesis narrative continually looks for places to re-insert the ideal mother culminating ultimately in Sarah.

 

[Hoghead1]

An interesting story here, Aelred, one that you might want to study is the fact Eve once had a strong rival. Mediaeval Christianity, striving to fuse the two contradictory creation accounts into one, came up with he idea that Adam actually had a first wife. Why? If these two accounts are to be fused into one, there is a problem in accounting for some to the personnel here. There are two women that have to be accounted for. The woman in Gen. 1 and then Eve in Gen. 2. Hence, the myth of Lilith. She was Adam's first wife and the woman referred to in Gen. 1. She was aggressive, liked to ride on top of Adam during sex. Adam didn't like this and God didn't either, since woman should be submissive and stay underneath. Hence, God gave Adam a second, better wife, Eve. Now, Lilith ran off and became a witch that goes after children, so that many a crib had "God deliver us from Lilith" on it.