The gift of Tongues

[Biblicist]

The context of this passage is the completion of Scripture -- "that which is perfect" (and the Greek word teleion = complete, translated as "perfect") NOT "He who is perfect".

As I am particulary well read on this topic, I know that it is rare to encounter even a cessationist, or a cessationist leaning theologian who will unwisely claim that 1Cor 13:10 is speaking of anything but the future Telios where we will see the return of the Lord with his Kingdom. Even the humanist commentator Johnny Mac recognises this as well. The idea that Paul is speaking about the completion of the Canon of Scripture is about as likely as him speaking about the replacement of MS Windows with Linux.

 

[Shane658]

Our services were conducted in an orderly manner...

Song service
Prayer
Preaching

The Holy Spirit speaking through that woman aided and enhanced the order of service. I left that church service with my heart warmed!

How do you get from a book talking about correcting the misuse of tongues and conclude that that verse is referring to your church service order?
Its referring to using tongues.

 

[Biblicist]

Everyone has already proved that Corinthians 13:1 is speaking hypothetically.It is clear.

Who are "everyone" other than maybe with those who are desperate to re-write Paul's teachings.
Any plain reading of 1Cor 13:1 will demonstrate that Paul is speaking factually, the only wasy that his words can be turned into some form of hypothetical speech is through desperation.

 

[rockytopva]

This is the conclusion of the matter...

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. - 1 Corinthians 14:39

Apparently the whole church was gathering together to do nothing but speak in tongues. The Apostle Paul was trying to put some order in the service. In the Pentecostal Holiness church if you interrupt a sermon speaking in tongues and there is no interpretation they will have a little 'you are out of order' chat with you.

 

[Shane658]

As I am particulary well read on this topic, I know that it is rare to encounter even a cessationist, or a cessationist leaning theologian who will unwisely claim that 1Cor 13:10 is speaking of anything but the future Telios where we will see the return of the Lord with his Kingdom. Even the humanist commentator Johnny Mac recognises this as well. The idea that Paul is speaking about the completion of the Canon of Scripture is about as likely as him speaking about the replacement of MS Windows with Linux.

The Gift of Tongues had its purpose and has ceased in the completion of scripture.I was temporary
The Gift of Prophecy was needed because there was no bible complete at the time.
The Gift of Knowledge(Knowledge from God) was needed to complete the Bible
What other prophecies would one need to say, God put it in the Bible.
If i want knowledge pertaining to God I have to read his book.
I have yet to see someone speaking in another human language without learning it.

 

[rockytopva]

The Gift of Tongues had its purpose and has ceased in the completion of scripture.I was temporary
The Gift of Prophecy was needed because there was no bible complete at the time.
The Gift of Knowledge(Knowledge from God) was needed to complete the Bible
What other prophecies would one need to say, God put it in the Bible.
If i want knowledge pertaining to God I have to read his book.
I have yet to see someone speaking in another human language without learning it.

WHERE... Where! Where! Pray tell! Do you find in the bible that tongues were only for the apostles? The gift of speaking in tongues was more dear to Paul than any other gift as he said...

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: - 1 Corinthians 14:18

 

[Biblicist]

This is the conclusion of the matter...

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. - 1 Corinthians 14:39

Apparently the whole church was gathering together to do nothing but speak in tongues. The Apostle Paul was trying to put some order in the service. In the Pentecostal Holiness church if you interrupt a sermon speaking in tongues and there is no interpretation they will have a little 'you are out of order' chat with you.

I would qualify your point where you said that all that the Corinthians were doing was to speak in tongues. Paul provides us with no hint of this, but he certainly forbids outright the practice of speaking in tongues within the congregational meeting without each tongue being subsequently articulated, and even then, we must have no more than three people praying in the Spirit (tongues) per meeting.

If Paul were to appear in our time, he would be writing much the same letter as he wrote to the Corinthians to those contemporary Pentecostal and charismatic congregations that allow their people to all sing in the Spirit during times of praise and worship - this is something that he (and the Lord) absolutely forbid!

As for the cessationist congregations of our day, I would hate to think what Paul would say to them, such a letter would make even Paul's letter to the quasi-cessationist Galatians to pale by comparison.

 

[Shane658]

Who are "everyone" other than maybe with those who are desperate to re-write Paul's teachings.
Any plain reading of 1Cor 13:1 will demonstrate that Paul is speaking factually, the only wasy that his words can be turned into some form of hypothetical speech is through desperation.

So I guess Paul did not have Charity according to you and he must have moved mountains as well, and gave his body to be burned.
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Hes trying to make a point to have Charity and that its important.

 

[Job8]

The idea that Paul is speaking about the completion of the Canon of Scripture is about as likely as him speaking about the replacement of MS Windows with Linux.

Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Jamieson, Fasset, and Brown)
“A primary fulfilment of Paul's statement took place when the Church attained its maturity; then "tongues" entirely "ceased," and "prophesyings" and "knowledge," so far as they were supernatural gifts of the Spirit, were superseded as no longer required when the ordinary preaching of the word, and the Scriptures of the New Testament collected together, had become established institutions.”

 

[Shane658]

WHERE... Where! Where! Pray tell! Do you find in the bible that tongues were only for the apostles? The gift of speaking in tongues was more dear to Paul than any other gift as he said...

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: - 1 Corinthians 14:18

Where did i say it was only for the apostles?Quote where I said that will you.

 

[rockytopva]

So I guess Paul did not have Charity according to you and he must have moved mountains as well, and gave his body to be burned.
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Hes trying to make a point to have Charity and that its important.

We understand that it is possible to have people in the service who speak in tongues and have not charity...

And let me add that is also possible to have people in the service who don't speak in tongues and not have charity...

 

[rockytopva]

Where did i say it was only for the apostles?Quote where I said that will you.

The Gift of Tongues had its purpose and has ceased in the completion of scripture.

Which is not biblical.

 

[swordsman1]

Just as you have not proven that that Paul was speaking untruthfully when he said those very words.

1CO 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

Paul was not speaking untruthfully in 1 Cor 13:1, he was speaking figuratively. It is patently obvious that Paul never spoke in the language of angels when you look at the parallel statements in the following 2 verses. He was speaking hypothetically, not literally. Yet the whole myth that charismatic/pentecostal tongues is the language of angels is based upon that one verse.

 

[Biblicist]

The Gift of Tongues had its purpose and has ceased in the completion of scripture.I was temporary
The Gift of Prophecy was needed because there was no bible complete at the time.
The Gift of Knowledge(Knowledge from God) was needed to complete the Bible
What other prophecies would one need to say, God put it in the Bible.
If i want knowledge pertaining to God I have to read his book.
I have yet to see someone speaking in another human language without learning it.

How I admire our cessationist friends who feel that they have "obtained perfection", where they "know all things" and where they have no longer have any need to "pray in the Spirit (tongues)". Sadly, we poor wretched Pentecostals have to still rely on the Holy Spirit, where we realise that without him that we are nothing and as such, unlike our enlightened cessationist friends, we are still compelled to rely on the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit. Aahh...to be like you chaps, where you have attained to the highest heights, where you now know all things to the point where you are now equal with the mighty Paul himself.

It must be wonderful to be within the cessationist fold, where all doctrine is held in common, to the degree that there must obviously be no disagreement. And here I was, apparently being foolish where I thought that these things were to only occur when the Lord returns!

 

[rockytopva]

Paul was not speaking untruthfully in 1 Cor 13:1, he was speaking figuratively. It is patently obvious that Paul never spoke in the language of angels when you look at the parallel statements in the following 2 verses. He was speaking hypothetically, not literally. Yet the whole myth that charismatic/pentecostal tongues is the language of angels is based upon that one verse.

When we hear someone speaking in tongues we do not know what language they are speaking. I have never heard anyone claim it was from angels. There is normally a 'holy hush' after someone speaks in tongues awaiting the interpretation, as it was in this service...

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

"The healing art I practice comes from a degree of man and not God. And the heathen peer of mine down the sidewalk has the same 'degree' as I." He later ran off with his secretary leaving his wife and 2 kids abandoned.

I was describing how I thought St Paul could best be interpreted. I think he would consider speaking in different languages to have been a spiritual gift given that this would make the spread of the gospel much more easy. Yet what he describes in 1 Corinthians 15 I interpret as "Yes, many of you speak many languages, that's wonderful, when you are having Mass you shouldn't let everyone speak at once, you should have one or two and then you should offer interpretations so that the Persian and Egyptian and Jew understand what's going on otherwise no one will understand anything, you'd be speaking only to God and uttering mysteries to everyone else".

 

[Biblicist]

Paul was not speaking untruthfully in 1 Cor 13:1, he was speaking figuratively. It is patently obvious that Paul never spoke in the language of angels when you look at the parallel statements in the following 2 verses. He was speaking hypothetically, not literally. Yet the whole myth that charismatic/pentecostal tongues is the language of angels is based upon that one verse.

Are you being serious - or maybe being desperate! If we were to grab groups of a dozen completely unchurched individuals and place them into a room where they were to at least read Acts and First Corinthians, I could not imagine for a second that there would be anyone who would not be able to understand that when the Holy Spirit prays to the Father through us, that he will always do so in inarticulate-unintelligible angelic tongues.

Even as a new 17 year old Christian, where I came to the Lord within a cessationist congregation, once I began to read through Corinthians it was plain even to me that when Paul was speaking about tongues, that they were some form of angelic language, not that I really understood anything more than this but if it was plain to me then in my view there is no excuse for anyone else to think that he was supposedly speaking about human languages.

 

[Shane658]

We understand that it is possible to have people in the service who speak in tongues and have not charity...

And let me add that is also possible to have people in the service who don't speak in tongues and not have charity...

Thats not the point he making.He trying to demonstrate the importance of Charity/love.

If I run a hundred miles a day and do a 1000 jumping jacks but have not motivation i am nothing.
If I climb every mountain and swim every ocean but have not motivation I am nothing.
Did i really climb every mountain and swim every ocean?NO . its to show how important motivation is .Its the same thing with charity, which is the point he is trying to make.

 

[Shane658]

Which is not biblical.

You have to be kidding?No where did I say that.How can you claim I said that from that verse?
From this which I stated"The Gift of Tongues had its purpose and has ceased in the completion of scripture" you got that I said it was limited to the Apostles.

 

[rockytopva]

You have to be kidding?No where did I say that.How can you claim I said that from that verse?

You said...

The Gift of Tongues had its purpose and has ceased in the completion of scripture.

And I said... That is not biblical!