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the rapid brain growth hypothis and the evolutinarypeak etc

: D

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Glad to be of help. :)

I'll decline your challenge though thanks, as far as I'm concerned your points are already in bed and fast asleep.

If you're genuinely interested in the answers to your questions why not try to find out, instead of wasting your time trying to pick imaginary holes in the TOE.
hey brother : )

hopefully you will check back and find some information of use to you,
you may ask yourself why I sound so confident that the answers are not there,
and that the holes in the ToE are very real rather than "imaginary".

stick around and we will find out. : )
 
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florida2

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that was disappointing : (

I have a mountain of scientific empirical evidence just waiting to be used in rebuttal right after your pro ToE answer to the simple question previously stated (im guessing you are lost and want to back engineer any empirical evidence and supportive argument I have, am I right ?)

do I really need to describe and explain what "over designed" or "over engineered" means and how these things can be measured,
blimey, lets start on the bottom rung, and I am going to be generous because im nice like that.
You don't believe in "over design"
nor do you believe an organism is "over engineered"
because it would suggest a creator or designer taking decisions in advance of the current environmental stimuli.

cool ?
: )

*Sigh*

I don't what exactly you mean by 'over designed' or 'over engineered'. How are you defining those terms? How are they measured? How is anyone supposed to respond to your claims when you don't define what you're talking about?
 
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: D

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I'm looking forward to it : D.! Hopefully you can raise some arguments that are different to the usual, tired ones that we see on here.
I think so,
in many instances information worth knowing takes years of reading and research in multiple disciplines,
5 mins on google not understanding what is being read is no substitute,

lets read on....
 
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: D

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*Sigh*

I don't what exactly you mean by 'over designed' or 'over engineered'. How are you defining those terms? How are they measured? How is anyone supposed to respond to your claims when you don't define what you're talking about?

It was already explained,
short of writing your argument for you (which I could) I don't know what to suggest,
the subject is well established and long debated,
and is in actuality quite a simple concept.

go back and re read the thread if needs be,
put your case.


(hint - seek out an evolutionary psychologist and some empirical evidence to support your position )
: )
 
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florida2

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It was already explained,
short of writing your argument for you (which I could) I don't know what to suggest,
the subject is well established and long debated,
and is in actuality quite a simple concept.

go back and re read the thread if needs be,
put your case.


(hint - seek out an evolutionary psychologist and some empirical evidence to support your position )
: )

Unfortunately I did spend several minutes of my life reading it again.

You make no mention of 'over designed' or 'over engineered' so why you are now introducing those terms (which you have still not defined nor explained how you measure different organisms to conclude that A,B and C are over-designed by X,Y and Z are not).

Your argument seems to be that you don't want to accept evolution because you personally find it incredulous that some organisms have not changed much while others have changed a great deal. The name 'living fossils' is something of a misnomer. Sharks, coelacanths etc. that are alive today are not the same species from millions of years ago. Comparing the genomes shows that there has been evolutionary change over that time, even if their external appearance is similar. You focus a lot on mutation but seem to ignore natural selection. If an organism is in a niche where it is very well suited it will not change much. Yes, mutations will alter DNA and lead to some new features but without changing selection pressures there won't be much change in the organism. There's a nice introduction to the idea here. Living fossils are better called 'extreme survivors'

In terms of human evolution there is still a lot of research going on. There is an interesting article here about why the pace of human evolution is perhaps nothing exceptional. Evolutionary rates fluctuate for all species through time and the pace of human development was perhaps not as exceptional as we might like to believe. The exact reasons why human brains developed in the way they did aren't clear at the moment but I don't see any reason yet to suppose anything supernatural was going on. http://io9.com/how-did-brains-evolve-1653897356
 
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Larniavc

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Quite how all primates with the same starting point and challenges were not driven to walking tall, thinking big and migrating has never being answered.

Primates came from a basal form but that does not mean they all had the same challenges. As they radiated out they would have adapted to differing environmental pressures that would have selected for differing evolutionary pathways.
 
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Larniavc

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How could a bipedal evolutionary peak for the time be replaced by a smaller brained weaker unestablished species?

We were smarter. Women have smaller brains than men but that certainly does not make men smarter. Bigger brains does not always equal smarter and more adaptable.

A dolphin has a bigger brain than a human but they can't even work out how to ride a bike.
 
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Larniavc

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Again if we are to believe that no sentient decisions are made in the chemically driven multiple variation version of evolution then we would see many more failures in the fossil record than we do successes.

We see VASTLY more failures than successes.

99% of species extinct explained
 
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Loudmouth

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nope,
the fossil record has a chimp skull,
and it has a human skull,
you claim the brain must have tripled in size in a supernatural fashion without any supportive evidence.


I made no such claim, so why would I need to support it?

Also, you are ignoring all of these skulls:

hominids2_big.jpg


We have the intermediate fossils with intermediate cranium sizes. Here is a chart showing that there is overlap between the transitionals.

fossil_hominin_brain_percent_lg.png


On top of that, we point to the DNA mutations that separate chimps and humans as the reason that the human brain is larger. That is a natural cause, not a supernatural one.
 
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Loudmouth

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that was disappointing : (

I have a mountain of scientific empirical evidence just waiting to be used in rebuttal right after your pro ToE answer to the simple question previously stated (im guessing you are lost and want to back engineer any empirical evidence and supportive argument I have, am I right ?)

do I really need to describe and explain what "over designed" or "over engineered" means and how these things can be measured,
blimey, lets start on the bottom rung, and I am going to be generous because im nice like that.
You don't believe in "over design"
nor do you believe an organism is "over engineered"
because it would suggest a creator or designer taking decisions in advance of the current environmental stimuli.

cool ?
: )

You need to support your claims. Otherwise, there is nothing to rebut.
 
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Papias

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nope,
the fossil record has a chimp skull,
and it has a human skull,
you claim the brain must have tripled in size in a supernatural fashion without any supportive evidence.

If you are going to deny reality and make false statements about opposing views (LM did give supporting evidence, and tons more is out there), then you shouldn't be surprised when many people don't consider talking with you to be worth anyone's time - as several did so far on this thread.

After the howler statement above, which is like saying that "cars can run on gasoline, since gasoline can't burn", I was going to post the graph of brain sizes from dozens of transitional ape fossils, but I see that LM has already done so. Thanks, LM!

LM has taken the time to help walk through the evidence for you. This is extremely gracious on his part - taking time from his day to help you learn, when it would be so much easier to just leave you to look bad here. From a Christian standpoint, LM's time here to help you helps the Gospel too, by helping a Christian stop making Christianity look like reality -denial, as Augustine pointed out 1500 years ago.

In Christ Jesus-

Papias
 
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sfs

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If we are to be generous the “rapid” brain development was achieved in around a million years, is it reasonable to suggest the necessary brain development for survival was rapid enough to prevent extinction?
No, it's not reasonable to suggest that, unless you have some evidence that an intermediate brain size was likely to have led to extinction. It's an implausible idea on its face, since extinction happens much faster than evolution usually does.

Or that the intermediate physical changes (where the creature is neither adapted to standing straight nor walking on all fours and still with a stunted brain) would have lessened the chances of survival considering the many hunting animals that had already achieved an evolutionary peak?
No, that's not even remotely reasonable. You seem to have a really garbled idea of evolutionary theory. Why would you consider Homo erectus, say, with a much larger brain than any (other) ape to have a stunted brain? You seem to think that there's some specific target that evolution was aiming for.
Quite how all primates with the same starting point and challenges were not driven to walking tall, thinking big and migrating has never being answered. If evolution is a random process where all possibilities are explored (with many failing and the successful attempts carrying on to reproduce) how where all other primates left to happily carry on as before unaffected by the non-sentient evolutionary process?
Which other primates were in the same environment as hominids? And why would anyone expect all primates to take the same evolutionary trajectory?

Other hypothesis include a need for better social communication, yet the chimp (along with the vast majority of primates and mammals) appears to have enjoyed a complicated social structure along with the use of tools and a changing environment over millennia with the evolutionary processes “deciding” a bigger brain is not required.
Other hypotheses for what? The previous hypothesis you mentioned was about the timing of human brain evolution, not the selective pressure.

Interesting to note the chimpanzee is now officially classed as endangered due to environmental stresses, evolutionary logic would suggest the chimps should start rapidly evolving to counter this natural threat.
No, evolutionary logic suggests that chimps are likely to go extinct, at least in the wild. You seem to be making up lots of things about evolution, i.e. constructing strawmen.

Academic wisdom tells us it took the natural evolutionary process 500 million years to develop the anthropoid maximum of 1 million neurons inside the brain, yet it also tells us that (again being generous) over the next 2 million years man acquired an additional 11 billion neurons. At the original evolutionary rate man’s brain would have needed an additional 5 billion years to naturally evolve not 2 million years.
I assume you meant 1 billion for the "anthropoid maximum". Regardless, the number is wrong. Just in the cerebral cortex, chimpanzees are reported to have 6 billion neurons, compared to ~20 million for humans. More importantly, why on earth would you think that brain size would evolve at a constant rate?
Furthermore this rapid enlargement stopped back in ancient history yet the modern brain packed full of knowledge and experience today is no different from that of early man, would evolution really evolve a human brain millions of years in advance that would never need an upgrade regardless of the massively different environmental challenges from then to now.
Your evidence that there has been no change in human intelligence for millions of years?

It is accepted that Neanderthals had a bigger brain capacity than today’s modern man, thicker bones to handle more torque from stronger muscles and had also mastered fire, complex societal structures, utilised pitch for weapons and boats plus used a refined common language (language is commonly thought to correlate with the larger brain).
Nothing is known about Neanderthal language, and little is known about their intelligence compared to modern humans (either in degree or kind). There's no reason to think their larger brains implied greater intelligence.

How could a bipedal evolutionary peak for the time be replaced by a smaller brained weaker unestablished species? Survival of the fittest in reverse?
Modern humans employed more sophisticated tools, suggesting either greater intelligence or a more useful cultural inheritance. Physical strength is not why humans succeeded as a species.

["Living fossils" skipped. This is such an old and pointless argument it's not worth responding to.]

Physical perfection (if such a thing exists) would surely lead to improved brain function and an unending improvement program, considering the shark achieved this physical peak 38 million years before the earliest human, evolutionary logic would suggest the shark is a victim of the randomly occurring chemically inspired evolutionary cold shoulder.
In terms of evolutionary biology, that paragraph means just about nothing. Natural selection will not "surely" lead to improved brain function. On the contrary, brains are enormously expensive in terms of energy, and human brains are so large that they cause major problems, including high mortality, in childbirth. Again, you seem to be just making stuff up and attributing it to evolutionary theory.

Taking Darwinian evolution at face value we should expect to find all manner of recognisable failed organic designs, if many minute mutations over a long time leads to an improved species and the failed species dies out then it stands to reason the failed inferior animals would be found in abundance.

The amazing balance of function within species needs (no wait….demands) many failed evolutionary attempts FOR EVERY SPECIES otherwise the whole evolutionary model is debunked.
Every single fossil, every single living organism, is an "evolutionary attempt". Most of them differ very little from other members of their species. I really have no idea what you expect 'inferior animal' to look like, but for real inferior animals, look around. You're surrounded by them.

Phew…. So hopefully there is some food for thought there, I have skimmed over the subjects of interest to me and am willing to flesh them out if it is desired,
Honestly, no. You don't seem to know much about evolutionary biology; instead, you're engaging in largely fact-free speculation.
 
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: D

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Furthermore this rapid enlargement stopped back in ancient history yet the modern brain packed full of knowledge and experience today is no different from that of early man, would evolution really evolve a human brain millions of years in advance that would never need an upgrade regardless of the massively different environmental challenges from then to now.

: )

I have requoted my first post for florida2 who missed this ^
I suggested the human brain was over engineered.

: )
 
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: D

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If you are going to deny reality and make false statements about opposing views (LM did give supporting evidence, and tons more is out there), then you shouldn't be surprised when many people don't consider talking with you to be worth anyone's time - as several did so far on this thread.

After the howler statement above, which is like saying that "cars can run on gasoline, since gasoline can't burn", I was going to post the graph of brain sizes from dozens of transitional ape fossils, but I see that LM has already done so. Thanks, LM!

LM has taken the time to help walk through the evidence for you. This is extremely gracious on his part - taking time from his day to help you learn, when it would be so much easier to just leave you to look bad here. From a Christian standpoint, LM's time here to help you helps the Gospel too, by helping a Christian stop making Christianity look like reality -denial, as Augustine pointed out 1500 years ago.

In Christ Jesus-

Papias
yes, we should thank loudmouth for his tolerance and grace.
however, since when do ape skulls of differing size support the idea they turned into man ?
and where is the evidence for the tripling of the human brain size within a million years?

"ape fossils" are still ape fossils. sorry.
 
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Loudmouth

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yes, we should thank loudmouth for his tolerance and grace.
however, since when do ape skulls of differing size support the idea they turned into man ?

It disproves your baseless assertion that brain size tripled overnight. Perhaps you could address that point first?
and where is the evidence for the tripling of the human brain size within a million years?

Can you please point to the area in this graph where brain size tripled in just a million years?

fossil_hominin_brain_percent_lg.png


"ape fossils" are still ape fossils. sorry.

How do you determine if a fossil is an ape or not? What criteria are you using?
 
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: D

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No, it's not reasonable to suggest that, unless you have some evidence that an intermediate brain size was likely to have led to extinction. It's an implausible idea on its face, since extinction happens much faster than evolution usually does.
No, that's not even remotely reasonable. You seem to have a really garbled idea of evolutionary theory. Why would you consider Homo erectus, say, with a much larger brain than any (other) ape to have a stunted brain? You seem to think that there's some specific target that evolution was aiming for.
Which other primates were in the same environment as hominids? And why would anyone expect all primates to take the same evolutionary trajectory?
Other hypotheses for what? The previous hypothesis you mentioned was about the timing of human brain evolution, not the selective pressure.
No, evolutionary logic suggests that chimps are likely to go extinct, at least in the wild. You seem to be making up lots of things about evolution, i.e. constructing strawmen.


I assume you meant 1 billion for the "anthropoid maximum". Regardless, the number is wrong. Just in the cerebral cortex, chimpanzees are reported to have 6 billion neurons, compared to ~20 million for humans. More importantly, why on earth would you think that brain size would evolve at a constant rate?

Your evidence that there has been no change in human intelligence for millions of years?


Nothing is known about Neanderthal language, and little is known about their intelligence compared to modern humans (either in degree or kind). There's no reason to think their larger brains implied greater intelligence.

Modern humans employed more sophisticated tools, suggesting either greater intelligence or a more useful cultural inheritance. Physical strength is not why humans succeeded as a species.

["Living fossils" skipped. This is such an old and pointless argument it's not worth responding to.]

In terms of evolutionary biology, that paragraph means just about nothing. Natural selection will not "surely" lead to improved brain function. On the contrary, brains are enormously expensive in terms of energy, and human brains are so large that they cause major problems, including high mortality, in childbirth. Again, you seem to be just making stuff up and attributing it to evolutionary theory.

Every single fossil, every single living organism, is an "evolutionary attempt". Most of them differ very little from other members of their species. I really have no idea what you expect 'inferior animal' to look like, but for real inferior animals, look around. You're surrounded by them.

Honestly, no. You don't seem to know much about evolutionary biology; instead, you're engaging in largely fact-free speculation.
" Why would you consider Homo erectus, say, with a much larger brain than any (other) ape to have a stunted brain?"
I said stunted when compared to Neanderthal.

"And why would anyone expect all primates to take the same evolutionary trajectory?"
because their environmental stresses where exactly the same.

"Your evidence that there has been no change in human intelligence for millions of years?"
I actually said the organ has not changed,
evidence comes in the form human skulls unchanged from modern human skulls.

"Nothing is known about Neanderthal language, and little is known about their intelligence compared to modern humans (either in degree or kind). There's no reason to think their larger brains implied greater intelligence."
and yet we are told humans needed larger brains for greater intelligence.

etc
 
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Loudmouth

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"And why would anyone expect all primates to take the same evolutionary trajectory?"
because their environmental stresses where exactly the same.

That's obviously not true. Humans are primates. Humans are bipeds that evolved to hunt and gather on the savanna, not in the dense forest. They definitely did not have the same environmental stresses.

"Your evidence that there has been no change in human intelligence for millions of years?"
I actually said the organ has not changed,
evidence comes in the form human skulls unchanged from modern human skulls.

Where are these 1 million year old skulls that you are referencing, and where is the evidence that they are unchanged?

and yet we are told humans needed larger brains for greater intelligence.

etc

That is only one factor. As sfs mentioned, neuron density is also a factor. How those neurons are organized and connected also matters.
 
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sfs

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" Why would you consider Homo erectus, say, with a much larger brain than any (other) ape to have a stunted brain?"
I said stunted when compared to Neanderthal.
No, you didn't. You didn't mention Neanderthals until several paragraphs later. In any case, so what? You didn't answer the question: why would you consider Homo erectus to have a stunted brain, when it had a larger brain than any organism in the history of life? Why should it alone have trouble surviving with such a stunted brain, when billions of animals had been doing just fine for hundreds of millions of years with even smaller brains? I really have no idea what argument you're trying to make here.

"And why would anyone expect all primates to take the same evolutionary trajectory?"
because their environmental stresses where exactly the same.
Just completely wrong. Primates live in a wide range of habitats spread across three continents.

"Your evidence that there has been no change in human intelligence for millions of years?"
I actually said the organ has not changed,
evidence comes in the form human skulls unchanged from modern human skulls.
Which skulls from millions of years ago are identical to modern human skulls?
 
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