Would someone please enlighten me on the official beliefs of the Methodist church?

[OrthodoxForever]

I was raised Methodist but I never really felt close to God in that church as a child and I never learned what the specifics of Methodism were, not even in confirmation when what I was wrestling with was whether or not there was a reason to be Methodist as opposed to Baptist, or Catholic, or Lutheran... I still don't know how Methodism differs from anything else other than what I observed in practice and may or may not have misunderstood...

 

[circuitrider]

Hmm, where to begin.

Do you have specific questions you'd like to ask? It is a big topic.

As a start, one of Methodism's most enduring characteristic is our understanding of God's grace and our understanding of grace as described by our most well known founder John Wesley.

Wesley described God's grace as "prevenient", "justifying" and "sanctifying."

Prevenient Grace is God's love for us that comes before we even know God loves us, before we can respond to God. That grace is there for everyone.

Justifying Grace is that grace we experience when we come profess Christ.

Sanctifying Grace is God working in us for the rest of our lives to make is grow into the image of Christ. It is also called "perfecting grace." The idea is that God is working by God's grace to lead us to love and see others as God see them. That is called "Christian perfection." But might be also described in modern English as Christian maturity.

United Methodist believe we are given the free will by God to choose to respond to God's grace or resist God's grace.

We believe that baptism and Holy Communion are means of grace by which we experience the love of God. Baptism is a one time only gift of God's grace that is not repeated. Communion is a "ordinary means of grace" meaning a regular means of grace by which we experience God as we share in the bread and cup together. We consider communion a "Holy Mystery."

That's a start. I'd be happy to answer specific questions.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

Well to start off with, the main reason that I left was that after having 3 different pastors over a ten year period I determined that what "the church" had to say on certain moral issues, such as abortion, tolerance of different faiths, cultures, and lifestyles, and even the way to understand scripture itself depended upon the pastor, that there was no real authoritative stance on these things outside of a given pastor's own interpretation, could you comment on whether that is actually true and if so why that is?

 

[circuitrider]

Well to start off with, the main reason that I left was that after having 3 different pastors over a ten year period I determined that what "the church" had to say on certain moral issues, such as abortion, tolerance of different faiths, cultures, and lifestyles, and even the way to understand scripture itself depended upon the pastor, that there was no real authoritative stance on these things outside of a given pastor's own interpretation, could you comment on whether that is actually true and if so why that is?

OK, so what you are asking is if the UMC has a required doctrinal position on abortion, views on different faiths. I'm guessing by "lifestyles" you are trying to dance around homosexuality and same sex marriage? Or am I reading that wrong?

The short answer is no. The UMC doesn't tell its members that they have to have a certain position on abortion. No the UMC does not tell its members that they have to have a certain view about the salvation of members of other faiths.

And while the Discipline of the Church states that homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching it does so in a section about who pastors can and cannot perform weddings for. It isn't included in the restricted doctrinal section which contains the official doctrines of the church. So while pastors cannot marry same sex couples the UMC does not require that anyone has to agree with that rule.

However, the UMC does have doctrines that pastors are expected to teach and that are the official doctrines of the Church. But they generally are not on social issues but on issues like how people come to know Christ, what Grace is, what the sacraments are, etc.

You might notice that the ancient faith and creeds of the Church say nothing about abortion or really any other social issue you have mentioned about.

You might also want to be aware that John Wesley himself believed that God might redeem persons of other faiths and that such was up to God and not us.

Does that help?

 

[OrthodoxForever]

it does, I will say that we understand Grace the same way. Here's another question for you. Both Methodist churches that I have been part of in the past celebrated all saints day but we would count among them pretty much everybody the rest year we'd pretend as though there is no such thing... and I was always quite confused by this..

Also what's the deal with the "prayer of confession"? they're so catch all that I found them meaningless and at worst even harmful as the assurance of pardon seemed to give the impression that we didn't need to re-examine our actions...

 

[circuitrider]

it does, I will say that we understand Grace the same way. Here's another question for you. Both Methodist churches that I have been part of in the past celebrated all saints day but we would count among them pretty much everybody the rest year we'd pretend as though there is no such thing... and I was always quite confused by this..

Also what's the deal with the "prayer of confession"? they're so catch all that I found them meaningless and at worst even harmful as the assurance of pardon seemed to give the impression that we didn't need to re-examine our actions...

Yes, my congregation celebrates All Saints as well. In the Protestant understanding of Saints all Christians are Saints. We don't names specific people as "saints" or holy ones because holiness comes entirely from God's grace and not our works.

The prayer of confession is intentionally generic as I don't know what your sins are. We don't happen to use a prayer of confession that often in my congregation. But the purpose is to offer forgiveness to those who repent not to innumerate specific sins. It is between you and God as to what sin is in your life.

I think you would find in Methodism a focus on God's forgiveness much more than a focus on beating people down for their sinfulness. Fire and brimstone doesn't have much of a place in Methodism. As baptized people of God we are already forgiven.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

What I found in the congregations I grew up in sadly, was more interest in "modernizing" and becoming more acceptable to the secular world than helping guide committed believers in the Christian life. In Orthodoxy it is not about "beating people down for their sinfulness" but rather lifting them out of their sins, working with the Holy Ghost to shatter sinful habits... that starts with defined theological and moral stances and an emphasis on private, continual, and specific confession, sometimes to the priest but not always. Fire and Brimstone has no place in Orthodoxy either, although that is a common misconception protestants tend to have about us.

 

[lucaspa]

I was raised Methodist but I never really felt close to God in that church as a child and I never learned what the specifics of Methodism were, not even in confirmation when what I was wrestling with was whether or not there was a reason to be Methodist as opposed to Baptist, or Catholic, or Lutheran... I still don't know how Methodism differs from anything else other than what I observed in practice and may or may not have misunderstood...

A suggestion: go to http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe. Read those pages and, if you don't understand something or have further questions, then come back.

 

[circuitrider]

That is nice that you found a church that meets your needs. It is apparent that it isn't Methodism.

But as this is the Wesleyan/Methodist forum I'm not really interested in us getting into a Orthodox versus Methodist understanding of Christianity.

It sounds like you are here to justify your move to Orthodox Christianity from Methodism. Don't feel you have to do that. If our faith outlook isn't for you one of the values of Methodism is that we are happy you found a faith group that meets your needs. Note the quote from Wesley in my signature. United Methodists believe in a catholic spirit. We are far less interested in having orthodox belief than we are you having a relationship with God. If you've found that be blessed.

 

[lucaspa]

Also what's the deal with the "prayer of confession"? they're so catch all that I found them meaningless and at worst even harmful as the assurance of pardon seemed to give the impression that we didn't need to re-examine our actions...

The Prayer of Confession you have encountered is much different from the ones I have heard. The ones I have heard prick my egotistical bubble that I am doing well, because they delve into all those thoughts I have that I never act upon. But the thoughts themselves are harmful.

For Methodists, salvation is a process. Unlike the Reformed Tradition with its "once saved, always saved", Methodists believe we can lose salvation. Our actions are the outward sign of our salvation. The idea is that, if you don't have the actions, you don't have salvation; you are only putting on a verbal mask.

Also, we are pardoned if and only if we ask for it. If you don't examine your actions and realize what you have done that is sinful, truly feel sorry that you have done so, and then ask God for pardon and forgiveness, you ain't gonna get it. After all, from God's pov, what's the use of offering pardon if the person isn't truly asking for it? Unless the person understands what sins he/she has committed, is repentant, and truly asks for forgiveness, giving a blanket forgiveness just means the person is going to go out and do it all over again. There is no change in behavior. I would think that Orthodoxy would believe much the same.

Think of this as a parent. One of your kids has hit her sister. She isn't sorry. She doesn't even examine her behavior to realize she has done anything wrong. What happens if you forgive your daughter and pardon her (avoiding any punishment, like your displeasure)? Doesn't that guarantee that she is going to hit her sister tomorrow, and the next day, and the next? Why wouldn't she?

 

[lucaspa]

What I found in the congregations I grew up in sadly, was more interest in "modernizing" and becoming more acceptable to the secular world than helping guide committed believers in the Christian life. In Orthodoxy it is not about "beating people down for their sinfulness" but rather lifting them out of their sins, working with the Holy Ghost to shatter sinful habits... that starts with defined theological and moral stances and an emphasis on private, continual, and specific confession, sometimes to the priest but not always. Fire and Brimstone has no place in Orthodoxy either, although that is a common misconception protestants tend to have about us.

I agree with Circuitrider. If you are more comfortable in the Orthodox Church, good for you. If Orthodoxy resonates with you and provides a better path to God for you that Methodism, that's fine.

"In my father's house are many rooms." Sounds like you found the room that is best for you.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

That is nice that you found a church that meets your needs. It is apparent that it isn't Methodism.

But as this is the Wesleyan/Methodist forum I'm not really interested in us getting into a Orthodox versus Methodist understanding of Christianity.

It sounds like you are here to justify your move to Orthodox Christianity from Methodism. Don't feel you have to do that. If our faith outlook isn't for you one of the values of Methodism is that we are happy you found a faith group that meets your needs. Note the quote from Wesley in my signature. United Methodists believe in a catholic spirit. We are far less interested in having orthodox belief than we are you having a relationship with God. If you've found that be blessed.

I was merely correcting a misunderstanding from the post above, I see misunderstanding about things like this all the time. When I see them I attempt to educate. If you take that as an attempt at justification that is you, because that was not my intent. It simply gets old being imagined as people blindly following senseless rituals or scrambling to obey overly strict doctrines out of fear. Neither is the truth. I could tell you on my high horse what I think the Methodist church believes/does but I am fully aware that I still don't have a clear enough understanding to do that, not that I would anyway as I find that profits nothing. When I see an error regarding what my own church is about, anywhere, I will speak up. That is all I was attempting to do.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

And after reading the website you directed me to, I know what I already knew, that the Methodist church has the same basic foundations as most other Christian churches

 

[circuitrider]

I was merely correcting a misunderstanding from the post above, I see misunderstanding about things like this all the time. When I see them I attempt to educate. If you take that as an attempt at justification that is you, because that was not my intent. It simply gets old being imagined as people blindly following senseless rituals or scrambling to obey overly strict doctrines out of fear. Neither is the truth. I could tell you on my high horse what I think the Methodist church believes/does but I am fully aware that I still don't have a clear enough understanding to do that, not that I would anyway as I find that profits nothing. When I see an error regarding what my own church is about, anywhere, I will speak up. That is all I was attempting to do.

For some reason we get a fair number of folks jumping into the Wesleyan and Methodist forum whose purpose is to tell us why we are wrong or to get us into arguments between their theology and UMC theology. I was simply hoping to avoid such an argument.

You might also want to be aware that there are several levels of expectation as to belief in the UMC based on where the viewpoint or doctrine is published.

We are expected to believe and teach the doctrines found in the doctrinal section of the Book of Discipline.

We are expected to obey the Church Law found in the Discipline but we don't necessarily have to agree with those rules and if we don't we can try to get them changed at General Conference.

The Book of Resolutions is a book of opinions and recommendations from the General Conference but no one is required to agree with or follow them. They are suggestions and guidance.

The General Conference is the only body of the Church that can officially speak for the entire United Methodist Church.

 

[circuitrider]

And after reading the website you directed me to, I know what I already knew, that the Methodist church has the same basic foundations as most other Christian churches

Correct.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

Correct.

But that tells me nothing about what makes the Methodist church distinct from others, which is what I have been trying to discern since my Methodist confirmation.

 

[circuitrider]

But that tells me nothing about what makes the Methodist church distinct from others, which is what I have been trying to discern since my Methodist confirmation.

My previous post about Wesley's understanding of grace is one of the major distinctive difference between Methodism and many denominations.

Yes, Methodism is very close to Anglican or Episcopal theology. And yes, Wesley read a lot and even borrowed some concepts from the eastern church.

Maybe it would help to list some things we don't believe?

Methodists don't believe in the teachings of John Calvin or Predestination.

Methodists don't believe that you need a certain amount of water in baptism like Baptists.

Methodists don't believe that the sacraments are just symbols.

Methodists don't believe in being theologically dogmatic.

Methodists believe that you can't have personal holiness without social holiness.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

The Prayer of Confession you have encountered is much different from the ones I have heard. The ones I have heard prick my egotistical bubble that I am doing well, because they delve into all those thoughts I have that I never act upon. But the thoughts themselves are harmful.

For Methodists, salvation is a process. Unlike the Reformed Tradition with its "once saved, always saved", Methodists believe we can lose salvation. Our actions are the outward sign of our salvation. The idea is that, if you don't have the actions, you don't have salvation; you are only putting on a verbal mask.

Also, we are pardoned if and only if we ask for it. If you don't examine your actions and realize what you have done that is sinful, truly feel sorry that you have done so, and then ask God for pardon and forgiveness, you ain't gonna get it. After all, from God's pov, what's the use of offering pardon if the person isn't truly asking for it? Unless the person understands what sins he/she has committed, is repentant, and truly asks for forgiveness, giving a blanket forgiveness just means the person is going to go out and do it all over again. There is no change in behavior. I would think that Orthodoxy would believe much the same.

Think of this as a parent. One of your kids has hit her sister. She isn't sorry. She doesn't even examine her behavior to realize she has done anything wrong. What happens if you forgive your daughter and pardon her (avoiding any punishment, like your displeasure)? Doesn't that guarantee that she is going to hit her sister tomorrow, and the next day, and the next? Why wouldn't she?

Well that's good to know as that sounds much more like I've always believed it should be, I don't know what was up with my former church but it certainly didn't handle it that way...

 

[OrthodoxForever]

My previous post about Wesley's understanding of grace is one of the major distinctive difference between Methodism and many denominations.

Yes, Methodism is very close to Anglican or Episcopal theology. And yes, Wesley read a lot and even borrowed some concepts from the eastern church.

Maybe it would help to list some things we don't believe?

Methodists don't believe in the teachings of John Calvin or Predestination.

Methodists don't believe that you need a certain amount of water in baptism like Baptists.

Methodists don't believe that the sacraments are just symbols.

Methodists don't believe in being theologically dogmatic.

Methodists believe that you can't have personal holiness without social holiness.

Very interesting! As a child I was taught that the sacraments were symbols, it was only after reading the bible when I was 12-15 years old that I realized that, that wasn't scriptural. I have visited my old church on occasion and now there's a new Pastor who is very clear about that with baptism (but strangely communion is somehow still being seen as symbolic) but the one when I was there and who taught and confirmed my confirmation class clearly saw Both sacraments as pure symbolism and nothing more.

 

[Qyöt27]

I wonder if the Prayer of Confession is how it is because of the governmental view of atonement being pretty strongly associated with Methodism (although it's not the only view you'll find). Just thinking out loud, but it occurred to me last night that that could be part of it.

The thing I've found is that, at least in my personal experience, even a lot of the laypeople in a Methodist parish may not know what the UMC actually teaches (or don't care). It may be very clear in the style of the sermons and the hymns and the overall atmosphere, but the particulars may not have a spotlight shown on them and declared with a 'Methodists believe...' or 'the UMC teaches...', unless you're in a theology-centric setting (I don't really remember that we touched on actual theological issues during Confirmation, but that it was more a general Christian Living course). But I later found, as I was sorting out my beliefs and taking an interest in comparative religion, that the Methodist influences from my childhood were what had grounded me amidst all the hodgepodge of Fundamentalist and Religious Right stuff we were inundated with elsewhere. It was only when I was older that I could finally put names to the positions because of the interest in theology (and it also explained why some things we were exposed to at home never sat right with me - like Dispensationalism).