abstaining from sin not equal to good works?

[Soyeong]

But the Gospel is that what was promised to Abraham, empowerment to be blessings to the world, would finally be given unconditionally to the people of God and those people are defined as those who have faith , not by descent or by possession or doing of the law.

Indeed, the law was never given for the purpose of receiving the promises God gave to Abraham. However, that doesn't mean that the law has no purpose. God wants His people to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct and to avoid a sinful conduct, and His law is His instructions for how to do that.

 

[Soyeong]

I think equating abstaining from sin with actually doing good works for the needy is the ultimate in facebook-style "slacktivism". Not actually doing anything, but still giving yourself that "I'm such a great person" ego stroke.

The law is what tells us what sin is (Romans 7:7), but it has positive and negative commands, such as to keep the Sabbath holy or thou shalt not murder. Someone who is comatose can keep the negative commands, so I consider the positive commands to be the good works. Abstaining from sin includes obeying both the positive and negative commands, so it it equates with good works only in regard to the positive commands.

 

[Soyeong]

Here you support salvation by faith only:



Here you support salvation by faith AND works:



Which is it?

Hebrews 11 is full of examples where it says that by faith someone took a certain action, so if we trust God, then we will obey Him. This is why James says that faith without works is dead. It is not the good works that save us, but rather it is trusting God that saves us, but trusting God leads us to do good works in obedience to Him.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Indeed, the law was never given for the purpose of receiving the promises God gave to Abraham. However, that doesn't mean that the law has no purpose. God wants His people to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct and to avoid a sinful conduct, and His law is His instructions for how to do that.

What will happen if His people do not have a holy, righteous and good conduct, and fall into sinful conduct instead?

Interestingly, none of the actions of the followers of God in Hebrews 11 are moral works, but acts of loyalty. In fact, Rahab acted treacherously with her own countrymen. Abraham was about to practice human sacrifice...

It required only two witnesses to condemn a person to death for acts of disloyalty against God in the Old Covenant (indeed against any king in the old times). Remember that when you quote from James...

 

[Soyeong]

What will happen if His people do not have a holy, righteous and good conduct, and fall into sinful conduct instead?

Interestingly, none of the actions of the followers of God in Hebrews 11 are moral works, but acts of loyalty. In fact, Rahab acted treacherously with her own countrymen. Abraham was about to practice human sacrifice...

It required only two witnesses to condemn a person to death for acts of disloyalty against God in the Old Covenant (indeed against any king in the old times). Remember that when you quote from James...

There is a difference between sinning and making a practice of sinning. Those who are God's people may stumble and sin, but our practice to repent and turn back to God. However, those who make a practice of sinning have neither seen him or known him (1 John 3:6). "Faith" is synonymous with "loyalty" and faith in God or loyalty to Him are both inherently moral works, so there is no distinction. Our loyalty to God should cause us to obey His commands. I'm not sure that I understand the significance or what you want me to remember about quoting from James.

 

[ZacharyB]

There is a difference between sinning and making a practice of sinning.
Those who are God's people may stumble and sin,
but our practice to repent and turn back to God.

So, is this the reason for the many dozens of warnings?

 

[Marvin Knox]

......co-operating with God by obeying His commandments is not doing good works.

Everyone agrees that keeping a good conscience and being sanctified by cooperating with the Holy Spirit is a good thing to do. It is even essential to a certain degree if one is to see the good works that must follow true faith.

But when one is a gentile, such as most everyone here, that keeping of a good conscience is the equivalent of a Jew keeping the law.

No matter how important keeping that law may be - it can never add to the salvation that is in Christ's accomplishments for us as Calvary. Nothing could be more clear than that in the N.T.

By the works of the law (whether it is written on tablets of stone for the Jews or in the hearts of the gentiles) shall no flesh be justified.

Not sinning, by keeping ones conscience clear and thus obeying the law and the Holy Spirit within you, is constantly preached in the N.T. There are numerous warnings concerning the results of not obeying the Lord once you have been born again. But no where is that keeping of the law added to simple faith in order to be saved or kept save.

In fact, those who add the works of the law to simple faith in Christ's work for us are under a curse in that they are preaching another gospel - which is not really another gospel at all. It is a false gospel.

Sadly - many here in the forum preach such a gospel.

 

[ZacharyB]

The false gospel is grace-only-sinning-is-okay.
Jude 4
... ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness
and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

So, is this the reason for the many dozens of warnings?

Yes, we are not to practice sinning, but if any claims that they are without sin, then they deceive themselves and truth is not in them. When God complete the good work that He began in us on the day of Christ Jesus, we will be in complete accordance with His law and free from sin, but until that we are going through the process of sanctification towards that goal through practicing obedience and repentance. However, if we make a practice of disobedience without repentance, then we are rejecting what Jesus did for us and is doing for us.

 

[ZacharyB]

... we are going through the process of sanctification towards that goal through practicing obedience and repentance.

And so everyone will be successful in attaining the result
that the NT insists upon (in many verses)???, which is none other than:
holiness, purity, perfection, without spot, blameless, etc.
For these are the ones whom Jesus is coming back for (so says many verses).

 

[Marvin Knox]

The false gospel is grace-only-sinning-is-okay.
Jude 4
... ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness
and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Everyone here who is opposing you has stressed, over and over again, that sinning is not "okay"?

Can you provide for us one example of someone here who is preaching this "grace-only-sinning-is-okay" false gospel?

 

[nobdysfool]

The false gospel is grace-only-sinning-is-okay.
Jude 4
... ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness
and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I challenge you to provide even ONE post made by those who preach salvation by Grace through Faith that says what you accuse. You made the charge, it's up to you to either back it up with proof, or withdraw the charge and issue a public apology.

If you cannot provide the proof, or, even if you refuse to provide the proof (if there is any), then your charge will be rightly called what it is: a LIE.

We all know what happens to liars....

 

[Soyeong]

Everyone agrees that keeping a good conscience and being sanctified by cooperating with the Holy Spirit is a good thing to do. It is even essential to a certain degree if one is to see the good works that must follow true faith.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

The role of the Spirit is to cause us to obey God's law, so if you agree that we should cooperate with the Holy Spirit, then you should agree that we should obey God's law.

But when one is a gentile, such as most everyone here, that keeping of a good conscience is the equivalent of a Jew keeping the law.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

While violating your conscious does qualify as a sin, the Bible does not define "sin" as violating your conscious, but rather it defines "sin" as lawlessness. Similarly, Paul said that it is the law that gives us knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20) and without the law he wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), so while our conscious is in line with God's law, sin is a broader category than that, and all of God's people are told not to sin.

No matter how important keeping that law may be - it can never add to the salvation that is in Christ's accomplishments for us as Calvary. Nothing could be more clear than that in the N.T.

Paul stated that Abraham and David were justified by faith (Romans 4:1-8) and because everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, every last person who has ever been justified has been justified by faith, including Moses before the law was given to him, so that was never the purpose of the law.

By the works of the law (whether it is written on tablets of stone for the Jews or in the hearts of the gentiles) shall no flesh be justified.

There is no definitive article in the Greek, so phrase "works of law" can refer to any law and it is used specifically for something that is not God's law, though it involves Jewish traditions that are based on God's law. Some groups were saying that people had to obey their traditions in order to be justified, and Paul correctly argued against that. Again, God's law was given for that purpose either, so trying to obey God's law in order to become justified as actually a perversion of it.

Not sinning, by keeping ones conscience clear and thus obeying the law and the Holy Spirit within you, is constantly preached in the N.T. There are numerous warnings concerning the results of not obeying the Lord once you have been born again. But no where is that keeping of the law added to simple faith in order to be saved or kept save.

Faith involves trusting God to lead us away from sin and into doing what is right, which means living in accordance with His instructions for that in His law.

In fact, those who add the works of the law to simple faith in Christ's work for us are under a curse in that they are preaching another gospel - which is not really another gospel at all. It is a false gospel.

Sadly - many here in the forum preach such a gospel.

Indeed, there is no peace for those who think that they need to earn their justification because they are never sure if they have done enough rather than trusting that God already did it. However, God did not give to law to His people in order to be a heavy legalistic burden and to rob them of their peace, but rather it was intended to be received by faith as divine privilege and a delight (Psalms 1:1-2, Psalms 119, Romans 7:22) and to give rest for our souls (Jeremiah 6:16-19, Matthew 11:28-30).

 

[cuja1]

What ive noticed is that in the course of sinning and living life your own way God teaches us our errors and We learn to actually WANT to do Gods will and not just be terrified of His wrath. Maybe thats why God says He would rather We be cold than lukewarm.

Lets not forget the verse that says that it is God at work in us to give us the will to please Him.

Im never going back to the place of trying to abstain from sin to avoid hell. That seems to me the surest path to get there.

 

[Meowzltov]

But no where is that keeping of the law added to simple faith in order to be saved or kept save.

What do you think Jesus meant when he said "but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved"??? Matthew 24:13 What, if not remaining obedient?

If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love Matthew 15:10. IOW if you DON'T keep the commandments, you do NOT abide in His love.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Double post.

 

[Wordkeeper]

There is a difference between sinning and making a practice of sinning. Those who are God's people may stumble and sin, but our practice to repent and turn back to God. However, those who make a practice of sinning have neither seen him or known him (1 John 3:6). "Faith" is synonymous with "loyalty" and faith in God or loyalty to Him are both inherently moral works, so there is no distinction. Our loyalty to God should cause us to obey His commands. I'm not sure that I understand the significance or what you want me to remember about quoting from James.

The matter is not as simple as stated.


What is required of a loyal person? Loyalty. Loyalty is different for different people.


A king on a campaign to stamp out evil demands support from every group he encounters on his task. From one group rich in men and materials he demands volunteers and supplies. From another group consisting of old and poor men he requires only that they stop supporting evil practices. As long as any group does what it is capable of doing , it is safe from the wrath of the King.

Now what group do you and I fall into?

Are you in the group that can contribute, can fight?

No! A resounding no!

Romans 7:21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?


Saddled with this body of death, we are a handicap in the fight against evil. If we try to join this campaign, we will be of no help. We will in fact be putting ourselves in harm's way:


Galatians 3:10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.” 11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” 12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”


That's a negative statement. What Paul says is that those who put themselves under the law shall die, because no one can meet the requirements of the law, and those who do not meet the requirements of the law will die. So why should a believer put himself in a harmful situation when there is a better option?

Which is to avoid being under God's wrath by being faithful, loyal. How can a person who is loyal but is saddled with a body of death show loyalty? By confessing!

Luke 18:14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

1 John 1:5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.


Does this mean that if we confess our sins and keep sinning we will be saved?


The point is that you will keep sinning whether you confess your sin or not. However, if we confess our sin, God tackles the root of the problem, our desires, rather than stop the results of that problem, our actions, the latter is which is what we try to do when we put ourselves under the law. And by the works that consist the following of the law no one can ever be justified because of our body of death.


Why would anyone want to put themselves under a useless scheme, that leads to no blessing, the blessing that comes automatically to those who have stopped from their own labour, because they are not slaves but sons, who do not work but inherit? What should those who are sons do? They should shed the last shreds of slavery that cling to them:


Galatians 3:But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

 

[Marvin Knox]

What do you think Jesus meant when he said "but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved"??? Matthew 24:13 What, if not remaining obedient?

If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love Matthew 15:10. IOW if you DON'T keep the commandments, you do NOT abide in His love.

Nothing is said about the one NOT standing firm until the end losing his salvation.

Nor is anything said about not abiding in His love disqualifying one from salvation.

It simply says that those who do will be saved.

Not standing firm until the end will undoubtedly result in great loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

But - you should not go beyond what is written.

 

[nobdysfool]

"The role of the Spirit is to cause us to obey God's law, so if you agree that we should cooperate with the Holy Spirit, then you should agree that we should obey God's law."

Who here has advocated NOT obeying God's law? No one that i know of! That's a false charge! The issue is one of emphasis, not an either/or situation. The ones stridently demanding Obedience! Obedience! are advocating activity to add to Christ's work, as though it were not enough to save utterly. The works that we do (that are acceptable to God and that please Him) flow from faith, and are the evidence of faith, not the other way around. Usually those who stress works are doing so to see works that they approve of, to categorize and pigeonhole others, ranking them in their own minds. Such an attitude is unscriptural. Who are any of us to judge another's servant?

 

[Meowzltov]

Nothing is said about the one NOT standing firm until the end losing his salvation.

Nor is anything said about not abiding in His love disqualifying one from salvation.

It simply says that those who do will be saved.

These verses are giving REQUIREMENTS. Basically, standing firm is a requirement for salvation. And keeping the commandments is a requirement for abiding in his love.