abstaining from sin not equal to good works?

[Marvin Knox]

Do you think there is a difference between what the Bible calls good works and the abstinence from sin?

It seems to me that good works are things like adopting a child, giving money to the poor, helping your neighbor (good Samaritan), doing your best at your job. In general, doing good things.

Abstaining from sin to me is not lusting, not committing fornication, not lying, not coveting. In general, not doing what the Bible calls a sin.

What do you think? Is there a difference or are they one and the same as far as what the Bible calls good works?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

We are His workmanship from start to finish.

Whether it's our sanctification from sin or our being led into social good works - neither is of our doing. It is all His doing.

If one tries to teach that either kind of "works" saves one or keeps one saved - he is preaching another gospel and not the gospel of grace.

Agree on this and it doesn't matter how you define things.

Add anything to grace for salvation and you'll part company very quickly with me and with God.

 

[Wordkeeper]

We become a new creature, one that is no longer in the image of Adam, but in the image of God...we have the Holy Spirit in us. We are a new creature of the Spirit. What we then "work" on is conforming our flesh to the obedience of Christ as well. It is because we live in this world (but are not of this world anymore) that we have to be as Christ was while He was on this world. Being saved makes us Christlike in spirit...now we also should be Christlike in flesh.

For it is through the flesh that we are to spread the Gospel. No one ever got saved without someone else doing something. Printed a tract, printed a Bible, said "God Bless you" to someone (not only as a response to a sneeze), always interact with people in a polite and Christlike manner, showing compassion, etc, etc. That is building our own testimony for Christ.

So the new creature is only our spirit. Now we must make our unholy and impure body holy and pure too.

How do we make our body pure?

What happens if we do not make our bodies pure?

 

[brotherjerry]

So the new creature is only our spirit. Now we must make our unholy and impure body holy and pure too.

How do we make our body pure?

What happens if we do not make our bodies pure?

Some believe that even our current flesh will be regenerated and made perfect, others believe we will get a new flesh body. So even the "new creature" will still have flesh.

And it is not so much as we are making our body holy and pure...but we are making our earthly walk holy and pure as Christ did. That is not to say we should not take care of our actual bodies...admittedly a failing I have cause I love me some donuts

But James as well as Paul speak of our works. When we do works that are God's will and for the glory of God, there will be a blessing because of it. Maybe not our blessing directly, but somewhere because of our actions in accordance with God's will, a blessing will be had. And ultimately we too will be blessed. This often will re-affirm our faith, which prepares us for even more or greater "jobs" that God has lined up for us.

If we do not make our earthly life a holy one, and do all that we can for God. We make God sad. Because in reality we are being disobedient. God will put people into our lives, situations before us in which we can handle and show our love for God to others. But if we refuse that...that is a work that gets burned up as mentioned before. We would still be saved but we would have no reward.

And there will be people in heaven that "just got by" and did not live a fruitful life. But salvation is never described as something you have to work for in order to obtain. It is something you are if you believe. What is talked about as far as perseverance and continuing to work, is further rewards in heaven.

That is something that conditional salvation proponents often seem to get confused about....there are works to continue to do after salvation for further rewards. Not for eternal life or salvation, but rewards that will be given to Jesus.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Some believe that even our current flesh will be regenerated and made perfect, others believe we will get a new flesh body. So even the "new creature" will still have flesh.

And it is not so much as we are making our body holy and pure...but we are making our earthly walk holy and pure as Christ did. That is not to say we should not take care of our actual bodies...admittedly a failing I have cause I love me some donuts

But James as well as Paul speak of our works. When we do works that are God's will and for the glory of God, there will be a blessing because of it. Maybe not our blessing directly, but somewhere because of our actions in accordance with God's will, a blessing will be had. And ultimately we too will be blessed. This often will re-affirm our faith, which prepares us for even more or greater "jobs" that God has lined up for us.

If we do not make our earthly life a holy one, and do all that we can for God. We make God sad. Because in reality we are being disobedient. God will put people into our lives, situations before us in which we can handle and show our love for God to others. But if we refuse that...that is a work that gets burned up as mentioned before. We would still be saved but we would have no reward.

And there will be people in heaven that "just got by" and did not live a fruitful life. But salvation is never described as something you have to work for in order to obtain. It is something you are if you believe. What is talked about as far as perseverance and continuing to work, is further rewards in heaven.

That is something that conditional salvation proponents often seem to get confused about....there are works to continue to do after salvation for further rewards. Not for eternal life or salvation, but rewards that will be given to Jesus.

So justification is by hearing with faith, and sanctification is by works of the law.

 

[brotherjerry]

For the most part yes.

We are justified before God as Christ paid the price for sin. We are sanctified before God by the blood of Christ as well. But we do go through a sanctification process with the rest of our lives on earth as we try and become more righteous in our lives.

 

[ZacharyB]

... it is being in a correct relationship with God based on faith that saves us, and it is that same faith that causes us to be a doer of God's law. ... We are to obey God's law not in order to become saved, but because we have been saved. ... It is not the case that when we are saved that we stop sinning, but it is the case that we stop practicing sin and start practicing repentance from lawlessness. Part of trusting God for our salvation from sin is trusting God to lead us away from sinning, which is part of our sanctification, as God makes us to be more like Messiah, in following his perfectly sinless example of obedience to God's law.

Yes, this is an excellent description of what's going on.
The whole point of what some of us are trying to say is ...
Today's Laodicean "grace-only" churches are sending many to hell.
Ditto for those poor souls who are trusting in the pre-trib rapture
because they are NOT ready to go through horrible persecution.
The pre-trib rapture doctrine will cause many to fall away from the faith and be lost.

 

[ZacharyB]

It is all His doing. ... Add anything to grace for salvation
and you'll part company very quickly with me and with God.

You must be blind to more than 100 warnings!
Through God's marvelous grace, which makes everything possible,
we must co-operate with Him in whatever He desires to do with us.
God didn't create no robots ...
we have been given free-will to please/satisfy Him (or not).
See ya, Marv baby!

 

[brotherjerry]

Zach...in agreeing with what Seyoung said, you just agreed to the tenants of eternal security and not the conditional security that you have been speaking of.

Eternal security says that we obey God's law because we are saved, not because we want to be or in order to keep our salvation. Conditional security preaches a message that you must obey the law to be saved.

I would also ask that you please keep your discussions civil, you cast a great deal of judgment with your claims of sending people to hell and finger pointing and playing the blame game.

 

[ZacharyB]

Zach...in agreeing with what Seyoung said, you just agreed to the tenants of eternal security and not the conditional security that you have been speaking of.

Yes, I am pointing my finger at you, and blaming you!
This is a warning for people to not take you seriously!

Seyoung included personal responsibility and co-operation in his post.
The Lord forces no one to do any kind of works, obedience, etc. etc.
It is by our free-will choices to follow God that we follow Him unto salvation.
We are not robots ... with our free-will we co-operate with the Holy Spirit.

 

[brotherjerry]

What it comes down to Zach is that you are prideful - You take great pleasure in feeling that you have the only answer there is.
Proverbs 11:2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom.
Proverbs 29:23 One's pride will bring him low, but he who is lowly in spirit will obtain honor.
Galatians 6:3 For if anyone things he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself
James 4:6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble"

Zach you are arrogant - You feel you are superior
Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.
Proverbs 94:4 They pour out their arrogant words; all the evildoers boast.

You speak condescending to others and are very rude.

You ignore what others say because you feel you are better than they are and have all the answers.
Romans 12:16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight.
1 Corinthians 4:6 I have applied all theses things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

There was a very civil discussion occurring in which many things were discussed. Things you may have learned a little from as far as the position of others. And then been able to engage in further discussion with them to find out more, or to better express your own beliefs. But you felt you needed to interject, not with anything to add to the discussion but to accuse people of being agents of Satan.

Who is doing Satan's work more here Zach...people having a polite conversation about doctrine and theology, or the person who interjects and starts casting judgement saying people are going to hell?

I have already provided several verses that show your attitude of self righteousness towards others is detestable in God's eyes. I think you better check your salvation there Zach. Maybe you are going to have to go say 10 Hail Mary's in order to get it back.

In James 3:9 we see "With it (the tongue) we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;" Those men made in the likeness of God are fellow believers. James is talking about cursing our brethren. This is what you are doing Zach by calling others the agents of Satan.

Zach heed the words of James 1:26 "If anyone things himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless."

I pray for you Zach. I pray that you do see that you do not treat people well. I pray that God will open your eyes to an understanding of what it means to love your neighbor and your enemy. I am not your enemy Zach. You are my brother and I will never consider you anything less.

 

[ZacharyB]

Believe me, this is the typical response by those who hate the Scriptures
that I am quoting to prove what is required to make it through to heaven.
Think I should dig up those verses again, which teach that ...
one must endure in his/her faith until death to receive salvation/eternal life.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Yes, this is an excellent description of what's going on.
The whole point of what some of us are trying to say is ...
Today's Laodicean "grace-only" churches are sending many to hell.

A church cannot send anyone to hell. But if any could it would be "churches" like yours which add human works to the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

Ditto for those poor souls who are trusting in the pre-trib rapture
because they are NOT ready to go through horrible persecution.
The pre-trib rapture doctrine will cause many to fall away from the faith and be lost.

Where does it say that belief in the pre-trib rapture doctrine will cause many to fall away from the faith and be lost?

See ya, Marv baby!

Aren't you concerned that that kind of disrespect for others will disqualify you for Heaven according to your doctrine?

I am not a baby. I am many years your senior both physically and in Christ.

If anyone is a baby, it is you - in that you are apparently in need of milk and not ready for meat in your doctrine.

As to whether you will see me in the rapture or in Heaven - that remains to be seen. I've seen evidence in many of your posts that make me doubt that I will.

 

[brotherjerry]

Zach...don't waste people's time with ad nauseum posting of scriptures that you "think" means you can lose your salvation. You never explain how they relate to salvation, and when questioned in regards to them you never provide answers. Nor do you expand upon things when people show that you may be incorrect in your views.

It gets pretty simple Zach. You will post a bunch of verses that not one of them clearly state you will lose salvation. You will rely upon things that are not written in the Bible as an if there is some hidden message. You rely upon works in order to keep your salvation but you cannot explain how many or what kind of works are needed to be saved, or to keep your salvation. Or what happens if you lose your salvation, how do you get it back, how many works or what kind of works are needed? one reason conditional salvation proponents can't and refuse to answer that is because there is no Biblical answer for it...they rely on "God knows" but completely ignore the teaching of John that say what is written is there so that we may KNOW we have eternal life.

Where as if you would bother to take the time to get to understand other people's position, you would understand that we are saved and saved only once. You cannot be "reborn" again and again. You cannot be made ANOTHER new creature in Christ. What we continue to endure is our life in this world, and we endure for rewards as mentioned in 1 Corinthians. Our works after salvation are judged and that which is not of Christ is burnt up, and what remains is for reward. We endure because upon salvation we will be persecuted even more than before.

You have failed to explain what Christ means when he says that if people drink of the water He offers they will NEVER thirst. Or NEVER hunger? How do you reconcile the many verses that speak of an immediate salvation and granting of eternal life with the idea that salvation and etneral life are only received at the end of life for those that endured?

 

[Wordkeeper]

For the most part yes.

We are justified before God as Christ paid the price for sin. We are sanctified before God by the blood of Christ as well. But we do go through a sanctification process with the rest of our lives on earth as we try and become more righteous in our lives.

So this is wrong?

Galatians 3:
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed ascrucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

 

[brotherjerry]

Of course it is not wrong...it is in the Bible

But what is Paul saying in these verses?
Paul asks them how they received the Spirit...by faith or by works (vs 2)
Move to vs 5 "So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?" Did Jesus, who provided the Spirit, work miracles by the Law, or by faith.
vs 6 "Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"
There is so much we have to continue
vs 7-9 "Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'All the nations will be blessed in you.' So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
now in any of that did we see that anyone had to work in order to be saved or blessed? Actually quite the opposite in that it is because Abraham was a believer that all the nations are blessed.

 

[Soyeong]

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

We are His workmanship from start to finish.

Whether it's our sanctification from sin or our being led into social good works - neither is of our doing. It is all His doing.

If one tries to teach that either kind of "works" saves one or keeps one saved - he is preaching another gospel and not the gospel of grace.

Agree on this and it doesn't matter how you define things.

Add anything to grace for salvation and you'll part company very quickly with me and with God.

Indeed, we are renewed creations in Messiah for the purpose of doing good works. The Bible speaks of salvation in the past, present, and future tense:

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

1 Peter 1:8-9 Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, 9 obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Romans 5:9-10 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Romans 13:11 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Corinthians 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

So there is a past salvation from the penalty of our sins in regard to our justification and right standing before God, there is a present salvation from sinning in regard to our sanctification, and a future salvation from the wrath of God on the day of the Lord.

1 John 3:4-10 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

When we are declared righteous by grace through faith that means that we are being declared to be someone who practices righteousness in accordance with God's law and refrains from practicing sin in transgression of God's law. We are to be bondservants of obedience, leading to righteousness, and bondservants of righteousness, leading to sanctification:

Romans 6:15-19 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

Salvation from sin or sanctification involves being made more like Christ in his perfect obedience to the law, so there is no sanctification without repentance from sin and obedience. If we do refrain from practicing righteousness and make a practice of sinning or lawlessness, then we are not abiding in him, and we are not trusting God for our sanctification or to lead us into doing what is right. So it is not that we obey God in order to become justified or in order to keep our justification, but rather because we trust God. If we don't trust God, then we won't make a practice of obeying Him or of doing His will, we are not His children, and we won't be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[Soyeong]

So justification is by hearing with faith, and sanctification is by works of the law.

Galatians 3:1-3 O thoughtless Galatians, who did bewitch you, not to obey the truth -- before whose eyes Jesus Christ was described before among you crucified? 2 this only do I wish to learn from you -- by works of law the Spirit did ye receive, or by the hearing of faith? 3 so thoughtless are ye! having begun in the Spirit, now in the flesh do ye end? (YLT)

No, there is a significant difference that the YLT shows in that there is no definitive article in the Greek. The phrase "works of law" specifically refers to law that are not God's law, though it is man-made law that is based on God's law. There were certain groups saying that people had to keep their traditions for how to obey God's law in order to be justified, and Paul rejected both that we have to keep their traditions or obey God's law in order to become justified, but there is a world of difference between saying that we don't need to obey God in order to become justified and saying that we don't need to obey God. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, so if Moses was justified, then he was already justified by faith before the law was given to him, so that was never its purpose. Trying to become justified through keeping it through our own efforts is in fact a perversion of its purpose.

Sanctification involves sinning less as we a made to be more like Messiah in his observance of the law, so it necessarily also involves becoming more obedient to God.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Here you support salvation by faith only:

Of course it is not wrong...it is in the Bible

But what is Paul saying in these verses?
Paul asks them how they received the Spirit...by faith or by works (vs 2)
Move to vs 5 "So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?" Did Jesus, who provided the Spirit, work miracles by the Law, or by faith.
vs 6 "Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"
There is so much we have to continue
vs 7-9 "Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'All the nations will be blessed in you.' So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
now in any of that did we see that anyone had to work in order to be saved or blessed? Actually quite the opposite in that it is because Abraham was a believer that all the nations are blessed.

Here you support salvation by faith AND works:

For the most part yes.

We are justified before God as Christ paid the price for sin. We are sanctified before God by the blood of Christ as well. But we do go through a sanctification process with the rest of our lives on earth as we try and become more righteous in our lives.

Which is it?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Galatians 3:1-3 O thoughtless Galatians, who did bewitch you, not to obey the truth -- before whose eyes Jesus Christ was described before among you crucified? 2 this only do I wish to learn from you -- by works of law the Spirit did ye receive, or by the hearing of faith? 3 so thoughtless are ye! having begun in the Spirit, now in the flesh do ye end? (YLT)

No, there is a significant difference that the YLT shows in that there is no definitive article in the Greek. The phrase "works of law" specifically refers to law that are not God's law, though it is man-made law that is based on God's law. There were certain groups saying that people had to keep their traditions for how to obey God's law in order to be justified, and Paul rejected both that we have to keep their traditions or obey God's law in order to become justified, but there is a world of difference between saying that we don't need to obey God in order to become justified and saying that we don't need to obey God. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, so if Moses was justified, then he was already justified by faith before the law was given to him, so that was never its purpose. Trying to become justified through keeping it through our own efforts is in fact a perversion of its purpose.

Sanctification involves sinning less as we a made to be more like Messiah in his observance of the law, so it necessarily also involves becoming more obedient to God.

But the Gospel is that what was promised to Abraham, empowerment to be blessings to the world, would finally be given unconditionally to the people of God and those people are defined as those who have faith , not by descent or by possession or doing of the law.

 

[beekaye]

Do you think there is a difference between what the Bible calls good works and the abstinence from sin?

I think equating abstaining from sin with actually doing good works for the needy is the ultimate in facebook-style "slacktivism". Not actually doing anything, but still giving yourself that "I'm such a great person" ego stroke.