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Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

Do You Adhear to Sola Scriptura?


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Standing Up

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What really bothers me about your perspectove however is the fact that you prioritize Josephus, who rejected Christ, over the vast majority of pious Christians of the past and present. Josephus should be regarded with the same trust we might grant to Caiaphas; frankly the opinions of a Christian heresiarch like Arius or Nestorius would be more palettable.
No one prioritizes Josephus. He follows what 1 Maccabees says of itself. There was no prophets in its time. Read some OT like Deut 18 or Jeremiah or Malachi for more context. Or take Heb. 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Josephus may have rejected Christ, but that is not to say he got it all wrong; this is much the same as saying, some accept Christ, but that is not to say they got it all right. You're again speaking ad hominem as if it should mean something to anyone besides yourself.
 
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Wgw

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If I remember correctly, Standing Up believes in Sola Scriptura. I find it therefore ironic that he's defending his views using non-scriptural sources.

The irony is not lost on us.
 
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Jordan Kurecki

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We can know that holy tradition comes from God because of apostolic succession; also because it never contradicts scripture since they originate from the same source.
Apostolic Succession is impossible to trace, How can we trust the claims of someone's apostolic succession?
 
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Wgw

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Apostolic Succession is impossible to trace, How can we trust the claims of someone's apostolic succession?

It is certainly not impossible to trace, although there is more to apostolic succession from an Orthodox perspective than a mere linear succession of hierarchs.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Jesus condemned the Pharisees for elevation their tradition above the word of God.
The Pharisees and the Catholics have a whole lot in common.
This is one tendency among Protestants that has always bothered me. And I speak here as a former Protestant. Even when I was one of you, I was aggravated by how there's no subtlety with Protestant evaluations of theology, liturgical practice or what have you. No insight. No nuance.

What Our Lord condemned is a practice of which the Catholic Church is not guilty (and the same can be said of the Orthodox Church by extension). In the passage you mention, He did not wholesale condemn Sacred Tradition. Indeed, whether you believe in Sacred Tradition or not, it cannot be argued (A) that Old Testament jews didn't have legitimate tradition of their own and that (B) that tradition was not binding upon them. Both of those are beyond question.

How can we be sure of that? Well, apart from common sense, you can find examples of Our Lord obeying tradition in His time. For instance, there's no particular scriptural basis for the observance of Hanukkah (if one uses a Bible which has been abridged by Protestants, that is). And yet it cannot be disputed that Our Lord observed Hanukkah and considered it a valid, official holy day. He did observe it. And He did consider it a valid, official holy day.

So what's the problem here with your understanding of that passage? Was Our Lord condemning tradition in which even He participated? Or... was His scorn more narrowly focused than that?

Somehow, though, Protestants overlook things like that in their unshakable zeal to condemn everything in sight because of their theological myopia.

If Our Lord condemned all recognition of tradition as a binding religious influence upon the faithful, why did He subject Himself to it by observing Hanukkah?
 
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Wgw

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This is one tendency among Protestants that has always bothered me. And I speak here as a former Protestant. Even when I was one of you, I was aggravated by how there's no subtlety with Protestant evaluations of theology, liturgical practice or what have you. No insight. No nuance.

What Our Lord condemned is a practice of which the Catholic Church is not guilty (and the same can be said of the Orthodox Church by extension). In the passage you mention, He did not wholesale condemn Sacred Tradition. Indeed, whether you believe in Sacred Tradition or not, it cannot be argued (A) that Old Testament jews didn't have legitimate tradition of their own and that (B) that tradition was not binding upon them. Both of those are beyond question.

How can we be sure of that? Well, apart from common sense, you can find examples of Our Lord obeying tradition in His time. For instance, there's no particular scriptural basis for the observance of Hanukkah (if one uses a Bible which has been abridged by Protestants, that is). And yet it cannot be disputed that Our Lord observed Hanukkah and considered it a valid, official holy day. He did observe it. And He did consider it a valid, official holy day.

So what's the problem here with your understanding of that passage? Was Our Lord condemning tradition in which even He participated? Or... was His scorn more narrowly focused than that?

Somehow, though, Protestants overlook things like that in their unshakable zeal to condemn everything in sight because of their theological myopia.

If Our Lord condemned all recognition of tradition as a binding religious influence upon the faithful, why did He subject Himself to it by observing Hanukkah?

Very valid, although in all fairness not all Protestants are so disagreeable. Alas the genteel mainline Protestant is becoming more scarce; even younger liberal Protestants like Rev. Jeremy Smith (UMC) are adopting the polemic stance of the non-denoms.
 
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Albion

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What Our Lord condemned is a practice of which the Catholic Church is not guilty (and the same can be said of the Orthodox Church by extension). In the passage you mention, He did not wholesale condemn Sacred Tradition. Indeed, whether you believe in Sacred Tradition or not, it cannot be argued (A) that Old Testament jews didn't have legitimate tradition of their own and that (B) that tradition was not binding upon them. Both of those are beyond question.
Again, that statement shows a serious misunderstanding of the meaning of the term "Sacred Tradition" and its role in the church. Simply put, Sacred Tradition is NOT traditions.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Very valid, although in all fairness not all Protestants are so disagreeable. Alas the genteel mainline Protestant is becoming more scarce; even younger liberal Protestants like Rev. Jeremy Smith (UMC) are adopting the polemic stance of the non-denoms.
I understand. But at least here on CF you get the fire-breathing types who charge into these threads using "That's not in the Bible" as their battle cry and I do think my appraisal is accurate though somewhat generalizing.

To your point, though, I typically make it a point of ignoring liberal Protestants. What specifically are they going on about?

Again, that statement shows a serious misunderstanding of the meaning of the term "Sacred Tradition" and its role in the church. Simply put, Sacred Tradition is NOT traditions.
You're making a nuance I specifically left out of my post in order to keep it focused on a bigger principle.
 
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Wgw

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I understand. But at least here on CF you get the fire-breathing types who charge into these threads using "That's not in the Bible" as their battle cry and I do think my appraisal is accurate though somewhat generalizing.

To your point, though, I typically make it a point of ignoring liberal Protestants. What specifically are they going on about?

You're making a nuance I specifically left out of my post in order to keep it focused on a bigger principle.

On the subject of "fire-breathing types," In the course of researching a post on 9Marks I came across an amusing article entitled "Regulative Jazz" which was essentially an invective against the use of incense, and liturgical fingerpainting. Whereas I am not in an immediate hury to challenge their view of the latter, I did find the use of the Regulative Principle to prohibit incense as unbiblical terribly amusing, if not exactly novel.

I am entirely convined that Orthodox worship as well as the traditional pre-1969 Roman Rite liturgy fits within the strictures on worship Calvinists would like to impose, although Imalso believe we are not in any sense bound by the regulative principle as a whole owing to Matthew 16:18 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15. However, 2:15 would seem to preclude liturgical fingerprinting to no small extent.
 
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thecolorsblend

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On the subject of "fire-breathing types," In the course of researching a post on 9Marks I came across an amusing article entitled "Regulative Jazz" which was essentially an invective against the use of incense, and liturgical fingerpainting. Whereas I am not in an immediate hury to challenge their view of the latter, I did find the use of the Regulative Principle to prohibit incense as unbiblical terribly amusing, if not exactly novel.

I am entirely convined that Orthodox worship as well as the traditional pre-1969 Roman Rite liturgy fits within the strictures on worship Calvinists would like to impose, although Imalso believe we are not in any sense bound by the regulative principle as a whole owing to Matthew 16:18 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15. However, 2:15 would seem to preclude liturgical fingerprinting to no small extent.
I'll be blunt, sir, I thought your entire post was intended to be hyperbole but I googled the article anyway to have a better understanding of what you mean. Imagine my surprise to discover you were being quite literal in what you said up there.

It does amuse me that we're getting down to brass tacks somewhat here in that Protestants (or at least that Protestant) is recommending the Regulative Principle to frame worship services. This is where the Churches of Christ claim to derive their liturgy.

I've got a broad view of the word "liturgy". Everybody has one... even if they claim they don't. This includes the Churches of Christ.

Anyway the Churches of Christ claim in all things they won't do something unless it's expressly found somewhere in Sacred Scripture. This philosophy has led them to a capella hymns (among other interesting things) during their services. To close the door on the matter, they've played "The One True Church" card to discourage dissent and/or departure from their members. A clever strategy (though unsuccessful in my case; I expatriated when I was 18).

My point in mentioning them is that this is an interesting line of logic on Leeman's part since it seems to be limited only to incense. If there's a clear mandate in Sacred Scripture to pass around an offering plate, I'm blanking on it right now. But I'm guessing Leeman remembers to do that every Sunday. I don't know but I'm also guessing his "worship team" uses instrumentation even though Scripture is similarly silent about that.

In fact, the only thing he seems interested in regulating is use of incense. Apparently everything else is fine and dandy.

Not to draw this thing out further but it's really interesting to me that what he's striving for is really a sort of standardization for churchgoing experience. His beef, clearly, is that different congregations have introduced various and sundry innovations which individual members/visitors might personally find noxious and they are without a specific biblical mandate. This, he says, is a negative thing.

However that can never be a problem for you or me because our Churches use specific Rites with specific instructions* to ensure a basic level of conformity. Leeman isn't outright saying it but he wants what we have and since there's no regulatory body that all Protestants (denominational or non) in all places are obligated to obey so his (and the Regulatory Principle's) only real appeal to authority can be made to the Bible.

* Yes, Novus Ordo is notoriously flexible in this respect. It's too long to get into here but suffice it to say I don't believe the latitude many priests believe themselves to have with Novus Ordo is actually permitted when you get to nitty-gritty.

Anyway, it's a sort of interesting line of thinking when you realize that it points to the sort of authority already inherent in our Churches. I find this fascinating.

Sorry to blabber so much but I'm getting a little punchy here.
 
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Wgw

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I'll be blunt, sir, I thought your entire post was intended to be hyperbole but I googled the article anyway to have a better understanding of what you mean. Imagine my surprise to discover you were being quite literal in what you said up there.

It does amuse me that we're getting down to brass tacks somewhat here in that Protestants (or at least that Protestant) is recommending the Regulative Principle to frame worship services. This is where the Churches of Christ claim to derive their liturgy.

I've got a broad view of the word "liturgy". Everybody has one... even if they claim they don't. This includes the Churches of Christ.

Anyway the Churches of Christ claim in all things they won't do something unless it's expressly found somewhere in Sacred Scripture. This philosophy has led them to a capella hymns (among other interesting things) during their services. To close the door on the matter, they've played "The One True Church" card to discourage dissent and/or departure from their members. A clever strategy (though unsuccessful in my case; I expatriated when I was 18).

My point in mentioning them is that this is an interesting line of logic on Leeman's part since it seems to be limited only to incense. If there's a clear mandate in Sacred Scripture to pass around an offering plate, I'm blanking on it right now. But I'm guessing Leeman remembers to do that every Sunday. I don't know but I'm also guessing his "worship team" uses instrumentation even though Scripture is similarly silent about that.

In fact, the only thing he seems interested in regulating is use of incense. Apparently everything else is fine and dandy.

Not to draw this thing out further but it's really interesting to me that what he's striving for is really a sort of standardization for churchgoing experience. His beef, clearly, is that different congregations have introduced various and sundry innovations which individual members/visitors might personally find noxious and they are without a specific biblical mandate. This, he says, is a negative thing.

However that can never be a problem for you or me because our Churches use specific Rites with specific instructions* to ensure a basic level of conformity. Leeman isn't outright saying it but he wants what we have and since there's no regulatory body that all Protestants (denominational or non) in all places are obligated to obey so his (and the Regulatory Principle's) only real appeal to authority can be made to the Bible.

* Yes, Novus Ordo is notoriously flexible in this respect. It's too long to get into here but suffice it to say I don't believe the latitude many priests believe themselves to have with Novus Ordo is actually permitted when you get to nitty-gritty.

Anyway, it's a sort of interesting line of thinking when you realize that it points to the sort of authority already inherent in our Churches. I find this fascinating.

Sorry to blabber so much but I'm getting a little punchy here.

You are of course quite right; the Novus Ordo is abused uncanonically. I am also amused that you regarded my reportage with incredulity; this seems a common response when repeating comments from that source.
 
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TheDag

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If I remember correctly, Standing Up believes in Sola Scriptura. I find it therefore ironic that he's defending his views using non-scriptural sources.
Well maybe you shouldn't comment without knowing what your talking about. Sola scripture in no way prohibits use of other sources. Anyone who has genuinely researched this would be aware of this.
 
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Wgw

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Well maybe you shouldn't comment without knowing what your talking about. Sola scripture in no way prohibits use of other sources. Anyone who has genuinely researched this would be aware of this.

According to a proper definition, yes. However this definiton is not widely adhered to by our Protestant interlocutors in this thread.
 
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Albion

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You're making a nuance I specifically left out of my post in order to keep it focused on a bigger principle.

I'm sorry, but that's no nuance.

It's the very meaning of the bigger principle that I was pointing to; and if that isn't understood, all the rest of what you wanted to say was negated.
 
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Standing Up

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If I remember correctly, Standing Up believes in Sola Scriptura. I find it therefore ironic that he's defending his views using non-scriptural sources.

I've no problem with tradition. I find it very interesting and useful.

To clarify, SS is the idea that scripture alone is the norm (rule of faith) to determine doctrines and practices salvific. We believe the prophets (OT) and apostles (NT) wrote all necessary things down for subsequent generations (this can be and has been shown numerous times in this thread). We will not stand on tradition or Tradition for Christian doctrine.

With that in mind, can we find SS operating in tradition? The answer is yes. Josephus defines the same principle of a valid prophetic line for their 22 books of the OT. Did Josephus/tradition invent this idea? No. It is found in OT, 1 Maccabees, and repeated in NT via Christ, Peter, Paul, and Heb. 1:1.

So, we start with Scripture and find doctrine/practice in tradition.
 
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Standing Up

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I don't know but I'm also guessing his "worship team" uses instrumentation even though Scripture is similarly silent about that.
Here's an example of confusion as to what SS is. In what way is using instruments or not a "thing salvific"?
 
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thecolorsblend

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