Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey

[joshua 1 9]

NDE's represent the perfect storm of opportunities for delusion.
1. You are dying, and thus afraid.
2. Your brain is desperately trying to figure out what is going on.
3. Your body is dealing with the toxins let loose by your kidneys as they shut down.

Let me see if I can sum this whole thread up. First you have a Neurologist that has been performing brain surgery for over 25 years. He has removed a lot of tumors in a lot of different areas of the brain and he knows the impact this has on people. He has the brain all mapped out and knows all about what the different areas of the brain does. Then one day he comes under attack. A women claims that he did not tell her what the consequences were going to be from the operation that he performed on her. There is a big stink about it and even people here on this board are attacking him in a very unloving way. Perhaps as a result of the stress he gets sick when on a trip having to do with his work. To give a lecture or something. He ends up with bacterial spinal meningitis. He is in a coma. His chance of living is less then 3%. The doctors are beginning to tell the family that it is time to pull the plug and let him go. Then miracle of miracles he gets better and recovers. They take him off the massive dose of drugs they had him on and he gets better. They let nature take its course and nature kicks in and he get better.

At first he talks a lot of nonsense but this is normal for a recovering coma patient. Over time he starts to make sense and his brain starts to function normal and all his knowledge, education and experience comes back to him. Still he has a story to tell. He talks about a girl on a butterfly wing. Something he talks about a lot. It turns out the girl on the butterfly wing was his sister that died when he was younger. She tells him he has done nothing wrong. Now in his book he does not talk about anyone accusing him. Still the girl on the butterfly wing comforts him and tells him he has done nothing wrong. Then while he is in the coma he learns about love. We know that people are either loving or not loving. There is no middle ground you are in or out with God. Then he comes out of his coma with a multiverse theory. He believes there are many universes in addition to the universe we live in. He claims that he gained a lot of wisdom and knowledge that relates to science but he is having trouble translating it for us to understand. That he will be spending the rest of his life processing the information that he gained in a moment of time when he was in the Coma. So I think that is what we have gone over so far on this subject.

 

[The Cadet]

But the whole point is that he claims his brain was externally damaged and not functional at all.

Okay. And we only have his claims to go off of that he had any sort of conscious experience during that particular time. And there's no reason to consider him particular trustworthy, or his testimony particularly useful even if he were trustworthy.

His chance of living is less then 3%. The doctors are beginning to tell the family that it is time to pull the plug and let him go. Then miracle of miracles he gets better and recovers.

I love how "survives something with only a 3% chance of survival" is somehow a miracle. Because, you know, something that happens about once every 33 times is an impossible miracle.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Okay. And we only have his claims to go off of that he had any sort of conscious experience during that particular time. And there's no reason to consider him particular trustworthy, or his testimony particularly useful even if he were trustworthy.

It does not matter if he was having a dream, a vision or whatever. He had the experience that he had. Otherwise he would not have a story to tell.

I love how "survives something with only a 3% chance of survival" is somehow a miracle. Because, you know, something that happens about once every 33 times is an impossible miracle.

Lots of people are looking for miracles. Lots of people need medical miracles and they are glad for whatever help they can get to receive what they need. Not to discount the medical miracles that the doctors perform every day. But this miracle goes beyond the physical and what man can do and enters into the realm of the spiritual.

He came out of his coma with a multi universe theory. This is a substantial contribution to science. I do not want to have to deal with a multi universe theory because it is enough just to have to deal with the universe we live in. Supporters of one of the multiverse hypotheses include Stephen Hawking,[6]Brian Greene,[7][8]Max Tegmark,[9]Alan Guth,[10]Andrei Linde,[11]Michio Kaku,[12]David Deutsch,[13]Leonard Susskind,[14]Raj Pathria,[15]Alexander Vilenkin,[16]Laura Mersini-Houghton,[17][18]Neil deGrasse Tyson[19] and Sean Carroll.[20]

 

[The Cadet]

It does not matter if he was having a dream, a vision or whatever. He had the experience that he had. Otherwise he would not have a story to tell.

Or, or, or, oooor he lied. Or he had the experience during a period between "brain dead" and "unconscious". Again, we have the problem in two spots - he's not trustworthy as a source, and his testimony would not be trustworthy even coming from a trustworthy source.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Or, or, or, oooor he lied.

It does not matter if he lied, no one else has the story he has. This is fresh new material that no one has ever come up with before. The multi universe theory has been around for a while but he adds new information that no one has ever come up with. There is a reason this book is number one on the new york times best seller list. A lot of books are not any better then left overs. Just a repeat of the same old stuff. This is fresh new material. Like it or not. Oprah does not like it. Most likely because it is not new age enough for her. Which new age is a fancy name for the same old stuff that has been around for thousands of years.

Or he had the experience during a period between "brain dead" and "unconscious".

You can question if consciousness is independent of the Brain but that is not going to resolve the issue. Perhaps there is not enough evidence or perhaps your ignoring the evidence. I know that there is a universal consciousness and I think a lot of people believe that. But we just do not understand how it works and we want to know more about it.

he's not trustworthy as a source

If you want to put this in your fantasy and fairy tale book go right ahead and do that. Universal archetypes are what made Jung famous and Walt Disney rich. Assign it all to the collective subconscious if you want. All the more people are going to be interested in learning more about it.

 

[Haasrecht]

Personally, I have never understood the fascination with NDEs. Why do people find them so appealing?

 

[bhsmte]

It does not matter if he lied, no one else has the story he has. This is fresh new material that no one has ever come up with before. The multi universe theory has been around for a while but he adds new information that no one has ever come up with. There is a reason this book is number one on the new york times best seller list. A lot of books are not any better then left overs. Just a repeat of the same old stuff. This is fresh new material. Like it or not. Oprah does not like it. Most likely because it is not new age enough for her. Which new age is a fancy name for the same old stuff that has been around for thousands of years.

You can question if consciousness is independent of the Brain but that is not going to resolve the issue. Perhaps there is not enough evidence or perhaps your ignoring the evidence. I know that there is a universal consciousness and I think a lot of people believe that. But we just do not understand how it works and we want to know more about it.

Doesn't matter if he lied??????????

Well folks, there you have it.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Personally, I have never understood the fascination with NDEs. Why do people find them so appealing?

People want to know about Heaven. In this case the girl on the butterfly wing turns out to be his sister that died young in life. David in the Bible said when his son died: "I will go to him, but he will not return to me." We want to believe that we will go to see our departed loved ones when the time is right for us to depart. As a Christian I do not understand how people live without that hope. Can they really accept that their loved ones are gone and they will never ever see them again? Now we know that there are multi universes. We can depart from this one and enter into another one. The next one maybe very much like this one and we can learn and grow there as we have here.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Doesn't matter if he lied??????????

Well folks, there you have it.

I put up with lies from infidels all the time, it does not seem to matter to them at all. Satan is the father of liars. If you want to know the truth then you will become a true christian and seek after the truth. If you want to abide in lies then take your part is the apostasy. Or join the apostate church. If I thought he was a liar I would not be here having a discussion about it.

 

[Haasrecht]

People want to know about Heaven. In this case the girl on the butterfly wing turns out to be his sister that died young in life. David in the Bible said when his son died: "I will go to him, but he will not return to me." We want to believe that we will go to see our departed loved ones when the time is right for us to depart. As a Christian I do not understand how people live without that hope. Can they really accept that their loved ones are gone and they will never ever see them again? Now we know that there are multi universes. We can depart from this one and enter into another one. The next one maybe very much like this one and we can learn and grow there as we have here.

First of all, we do not know that the multiverse is a thing.

Second, I suppose I should have been more clear. Why do people feel they need NDE's to believe in an afterlife or new earth? I am perfectly fine with what the Bible teaches on the issue.

 

[joshua 1 9]

First of all, we do not know that the multiverse is a thing.

Second, I suppose I should have been more clear. Why do people feel they need NDE's to believe in an afterlife or new earth? I am perfectly fine with what the Bible teaches on the issue.

How do you know what the Bible teaches? Moses had the whole story, but lots of people came along after him to better explain, so people could better understand. Jesus came to set an example for us to follow. We learn and we grow in the knowledge of the truth and our understanding of the Bible. We are not adding to anything that is not already there in the Bible for us to read and study.

 

[bhsmte]

I put up with lies from infidels all the time, it does not seem to matter to them at all. Satan is the father of liars. If you want to know the truth then you will become a true christian and seek after the truth. If you want to abide in lies then take your part is the apostasy. Or join the apostate church. If I thought he was a liar I would not be here having a discussion about it.

Excuse me, if I don't put much credibility in your opinion.

 

[Haasrecht]

How do you know what the Bible teaches?

I am going to assume you are trying to lead this down the path where you bring up the many details about life after death that the Bible is not clear on or does not mention so I will just skip ahead to that part. For those things, I am fine not knowing. There is a great deal we do not know and I am perfectly fine not knowing.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I am going to assume you are trying to lead this down the path where you bring up the many details about life after death that the Bible is not clear on or does not mention so I will just skip ahead to that part. For those things, I am fine not knowing. There is a great deal we do not know and I am perfectly fine not knowing.

I want to know as much as I can. For example the book talks about love. I want to know all I can about God's love and how it fills the universe.

 

[Haasrecht]

I want to know as much as I can. For example the book talks about love. I want to know all I can about God's love and how it fills the universe.

Do you really 'know' much after reading these NDE books? I have read accounts that people have shown me and I have never seen anything to make me think it is anymore than a personal anecdote.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Excuse me, if I don't put much credibility in your opinion.

Don't matter to me. Why are you here reading my opinion? I am just having a conversation about a book I am reading. Otherwise I tend to underline as I read and there are lots of people around here that love for me to read the underlined parts for them.

 

[bhsmte]

Don't matter to me. Why are you here reading my opinion? I am just having a conversation about a book I am reading. Otherwise I tend to underline as I read and there are lots of people around here that love for me to read the underlined parts for them.

At this point, it is partly for entertainment and to provide clarification to issues, for the lurkers.

 

[Haasrecht]

Don't matter to me. Why are you here reading my opinion? I am just having a conversation about a book I am reading. Otherwise I tend to underline as I read and there are lots of people around here that love for me to read the underlined parts for them.

To be fair, you titled this thread 'Proof of Heaven.' That goes beyond just discussing a book you are reading. It is claiming that this book constitutes proof of something.

 

[joshua 1 9]

To be fair, you titled this thread 'Proof of Heaven.' That goes beyond just discussing a book you are reading. It is claiming that this book constitutes proof of something.

I did read the book, in a day which surprised me. The author seems to think that his experience was proof of a consciousness that is independent of the Brain. So he is using terminal lucidity as evidence or proof for Heaven. Otherwise science says that when the brain stops consciousness comes to an end.

 

[joshua 1 9]

At this point, it is partly for entertainment and to provide clarification to issues, for the lurkers.

I don't think there are that many lurkers on this forum anymore.