2 more school (college) shootings right now. Texas and Arizona.

[Mountain_Girl406]

Do you see people calling for the ban for swimming pools?

I see people calling for mandating fences around pools, and I see the existence of laws holding pool owners liable for injuries suffered because their pool was an attractive nuisance.

 

[MikeK]

Every time I've considered suicide (and I've never been serious about it) I figured shotgun to the side of the head would be my choice. I could do that. I couldn't throw myself in front of a bus or hang myself, and I'd be afraid of being permanently harmed if I tried to OD. I don't believe that I am the only person who has had such thoughts.

All of this talk of "banning roads" and other such nonsense is exactly that, nonsense. MountainGirl is not calling for an all out ban on firearms but rather reasonable restrictions that would result in some, but not all, lives being saved. There isn't anyone in this conversation that is calling for a general gun ban.

 

[SolomonVII]

Whiskey is hard to come by for a fifth grader. Harder than a gun. My focus in all my comments are on youth suicides, and not that guns cause them, but that access to guns means kids have an easy method and may be successful on the first impulsive try before they can receive help for the cause.

You don't need the whisky to put your neck on the train track either.

When ten year olds are committing suicide, I think that people really, really should be looking a lot deeper than a knee jerk reaction of blaming guns. There is something seriously wrong with that kind of social situation, and people in that community need to find out why.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

You don't need the whisky to put your neck on the train track either.

When ten year olds are committing suicide, I think that people really, really should be looking a lot deeper than a knee jerk reaction of blaming guns. There is something seriously wrong with that kind of social situation, and people in that community need to find out why.

There's a big difference between blaming guns for making kids consider suicide and noting that having a gun handy increases the odds that they will successfully go through with it.

Of course the community is looking for reasons why kids are suicidal, but it shouldn't be unreasonable to also suggest taking the loaded gun out of the nightstand and lock it up or get rid of it. Add accidental shootings to the mix, and there's more reasons to keep loaded guns far away from kids...but the gun culture is so entrenched in this country that such suggestions are seen as unreasonable.

 

[Erose]

Every time I've considered suicide (and I've never been serious about it) I figured shotgun to the side of the head would be my choice. I could do that. I couldn't throw myself in from of a bus or hang myself, and I'd be afraid of being permanently harmed if I tried to OD. I don't believe that I am the only person who has had such thoughts.

All of this talk of "banning roads" and other such nonsense is exactly that, nonsense. MountainGirl is not calling for an all out ban on firearms but rather reasonable restrictions that would result in some, but not all, lives being saved. There isn't anyone in this conversation that is calling for a general gun ban.

We are talking about individual rights restrictions; that is what we are talking about. As usual instead of attacking the issue at the core, the knee jerk reaction is to punish everyone else. You can spin it anyway you want Mike, but you, Tad and MountainGirl are calling for restrictions to individual rights. That is what you are calling for. What I am calling for is intervention. Fix the issue by improving our mental healthcare in this country.

You want to minimize suicides? Identify those who are at risk, and help them. Restricting or banning guns are not going to fix the issue.

You want to minimize mass murders? Identify those who may be susceptible to such actions, and help them. Restricting or banning guns is not going to stop mass murders.

 

[Erose]

There's a big difference between blaming guns for making kids consider suicide and noting that having a gun handy increases the odds that they will successfully go through with it.

South Korea has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the developed world, and yet they lead the world in suicide rate. You really have to understand that if there is a will there will be a way. There is zero evidence that reducing or even eliminating guns in a community will even reduce suicides.

Of course the community is looking for reasons why kids are suicidal, but it shouldn't be unreasonable to also suggest taking the loaded gun out of the nightstand and lock it up or get rid of it. Add accidental shootings to the mix, and there's more reasons to keep loaded guns far away from kids...but the gun culture is so entrenched in this country that such suggestions are seen as unreasonable.

Its viewed as unreasonable because it won't fix the issue. Find out why the kids in your community are prone to suicide. Fix that reason, and you will reduce suicides in your community.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

We are talking about individual rights restrictions; that is what we are talking about. As usual instead of attacking the issue at the core, the knee jerk reaction is to punish everyone else. You can spin it anyway you want Mike, but you, Tad and MountainGirl are calling for restrictions to individual rights. That is what you are calling for. What I am calling for is intervention. Fix the issue by improving our mental healthcare in this country.

You want to minimize suicides? Identify those who are at risk, and help them. Restricting or banning guns are not going to fix the issue.

You want to minimize mass murders? Identify those who may be susceptible to such actions, and help them. Restricting or banning guns is not going to stop mass murders.

The way suicide risk is often identified is through failed attempts. If the first attempt is with a gun, then the odds of it being a failure are much smaller.

Your right to have an unsecured loaded firearm in a house with children is right up there with your right to drive your kids around with no seat belts. I don't understand a parent holding their personal freedoms that high that they are willing to overlook all the data of the risk to their kids.

 

[MikeK]

She said " My focus in all my comments are on youth suicides, and not that guns cause them, but that access to guns means kids have an easy method and may be successful on the first impulsive try before they can receive help for the cause."

She did not make a knee jerk reaction and blame guns, in fact, she even took pains to mention that her point is not that guns cause suicide.

We are talking about individual rights restrictions; that is what we are talking about. As usual instead of attacking the issue at the core, the knee jerk reaction is to punish everyone else. You can spin it anyway you want Mike, but you, Tad and MountainGirl are calling for restrictions to individual rights. That is what you are calling for. What I am calling for is intervention. Fix the issue by improving our mental healthcare in this country.

You want to minimize suicides? Identify those who are at risk, and help them. Restricting or banning guns are not going to fix the issue.

You want to minimize mass murders? Identify those who may be susceptible to such actions, and help them. Restricting or banning guns is not going to stop mass murders.

What are the countries with the least mass murders per capita doing that we can emulate? Which individual rights are we calling for the revoking of? I think the stance that generations of American Bishops have taken on this issue is rather reasonable; pass legislation that will help to keep guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have guns without preventing law-abiding, sane people from owning guns, and provide access to quality healthcare, including mental healthcare, to all people. Helping those who suffer, is absolutely part of the sollution and nobody suggested otherwise.

 

[SolomonVII]

There's a big difference between blaming guns for making kids consider suicide and noting that having a gun handy increases the odds that they will successfully go through with it.

Of course the community is looking for reasons why kids are suicidal, but it shouldn't be unreasonable to also suggest taking the loaded gun out of the nightstand and lock it up or get rid of it. Add accidental shootings to the mix, and there's more reasons to keep loaded guns far away from kids...but the gun culture is so entrenched in this country that such suggestions are seen as unreasonable.

I can only state again, a community where kids that young are offing themselves is a community in serious crisis.
Instead of looking for bandaid solutions for bullet holes, the bigger question is why in the heck are kids that young kiling themselves in the first place?

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

South Korea has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the developed world, and yet they lead the world in suicide rate. You really have to understand that if there is a will there will be a way. There is zero evidence that reducing or even eliminating guns in a community will even reduce suicides.

Its viewed as unreasonable because it won't fix the issue. Find out why the kids in your community are prone to suicide. Fix that reason, and you will reduce suicides in your community.

There's plenty of evidence that loaded, unsecured firearms increase the risk of suicide and accidental shootings. I posted some upthread.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

I can only state again, a community where kids that young are offing themselves is a community in serious crisis.
Instead of looking for bandaid solutions for bullet holes, the bigger question is why in the heck are kids that young kiling themselves in the first place?

My community is addressing those issues...like I've stated before. It doesn't have to be one or the other, we can both address the root causes, and work on making guns less accessible to kids. It's even possible to care about other dangers to children at the same time, like pools and cars, and work to minimize the risk caused by them.

 

[Erose]

The way suicide risk is often identified is through failed attempts. If the first attempt is with a gun, then the odds of it being a failure are much smaller.

Your right to have an unsecured loaded firearm in a house with children is right up there with your right to drive your kids around with no seat belts. I don't understand a parent holding their personal freedoms that high that they are willing to overlook all the data of the risk to their kids.

Considering that you have failed to justify why you think having a gun in a person's home is going to induce a child to kill themselves.

Considering that I have healthy kids (now only one kid) in my house who have no desire to commit suicide, I feel pretty comfortable with my household situation thank you very much. My kids where taught firearms and respect for those firearms. Before they were twelve they knew how to use a gun as well as I can, including breaking it down and cleaning it. I've never seen any of my kids using a real gun as a toy. Its called properly educating your child. Its just like teaching a kid how not to stick something in a light socket; or touching a hot stove; or playing with knives; or teaching them how to adjust the water in the shower so they won't burn themselves; or not to drink bleach and all the other poisonous things we have in our houses; or not to run out in a road when a car is coming; or not to pick up a snake; or all the other 1000s of things that could be dangerous to them. It is as simple as that. What is [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]poor parenting is when a parent doesn't take time out to properly educate their children on one of the most dangerous tools that they have in their home. That is bad parenting.

 

[MikeK]

My children are....children. They are tought to respect guns and they shoot guns. My guns are kept locked up, so that they, being children, will not access them without my direct supervision and permission. They are children. I have child control locks on their electronic devices even though I tell them not to use the Internet for inappropriate purposes.

When I was a child, I played with my father's unsecured guns quite often even though I was told not to and taught about guns, and I am thankful that nothing bad happened. I smoked cigarettes even though I knew the risks. I played with fire. I didn't always do my best in school even though I knew it would benefit me. I practiced developing a knuckleball even though I was warned against it. I took the car out without permission. Even though vegitables and whole grains were available, I frequently made poor diet choices. I drank alcohol and experimented with sex and drugs even after being educated and told not to. I was a child, and I don't think I was the only one who broke the rules. I was a child.

 

[Erose]

There's plenty of evidence that loaded, unsecured firearms increase the risk of suicide and accidental shootings. I posted some upthread.

Then why is South Korea on top of the suicide list? The evidence that you have offered is loaded nothing more. Look at the states in this country. There are states that have pretty strong gun control laws, that have low suicide rates; but there is also states that have pretty weak gun laws with low suicide rates as well. Louisiana, my state, where every other house has a gun; but it has a below American average of suicide rates. Texas is also below the American mean as well.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Considering that you have failed to justify why you think having a gun in a person's home is going to induce a child to kill themselves.

Considering that I have healthy kids (now only one kid) in my house who have no desire to commit suicide, I feel pretty comfortable with my household situation thank you very much. My kids where taught firearms and respect for those firearms. Before they were twelve they knew how to use a gun as well as I can, including breaking it down and cleaning it. I've never seen any of my kids using a real gun as a toy. Its called properly educating your child. Its just like teaching a kid how not to stick something in a light socket; or touching a hot stove; or playing with knives; or teaching them how to adjust the water in the shower so they won't burn themselves; or not to drink bleach and all the other poisonous things we have in our houses; or not to run out in a road when a car is coming; or not to pick up a snake; or all the other 1000s of things that could be dangerous to them. It is as simple as that. What is [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]poor parenting is when a parent doesn't take time out to properly educate their children on one of the most dangerous tools that they have in their home. That is bad parenting.

Ugh...I have never said having a gun is going to induce a child to kill themselves, just that if they have suicidal impulses, a gun makes it easier and more likely to be successful.
If good parenting is 100% effective at preventing small children from harming themselves, then is it bad parenting to put covers over outlets, grating around woodstoves, keep cleaning chemicals locked up, etc?
The data are clear that having a firearm in the home is more likely to result in harm to family members than it is to save a life. My concern is the safety of my family and the families in my community. I don't trust that I'm a perfect parent, after all my son suffered a seroius burn at 4 months old from the woodstove...I failed to drill it into his head to be responsible around stoves. I would have put up fencing and gate around the stove (thus denying my personal freedom to easily access this dangerous tool of course) but it was the first time he had ever crawled so I wasn't expecting it.

 

[MikeK]

Then why is South Korea on top of the suicide list? The evidence that you have offered is loaded nothing more. Look at the states in this country. There are states that have pretty strong gun control laws, that have low suicide rates; but there is also states that have pretty weak gun laws with low suicide rates as well. Louisiana, my state, where every other house has a gun; but it has a below American average of suicide rates. Texas is also below the American mean as well.

Access to firearms is a risk factor for suicide, one of many. Nobody is chasing magic talismans or saying that this or that piece of gum legislation will cure all of the nation's ills. There are a lot of little things that we need to do and employing stronger firearms laws is only a portion of it. It should not balm our consciences that a country like South Korea with little Christian influence and a long tradition of seeing suicide as a somewhat noble method to exit life has a higher suicide rate than we do. Of course they do.

 

[tadoflamb]

Do you see people calling for the ban for swimming pools?

Here in AZ we have a lot of swimming pools and a lot of guns.

The law requires a fence be erected around all pools with a locking gate. There is a media information blitz every year when the weather starts to get warm. We do this to protect our children.

We also have gun shows. It's where a private dealer can sell a firearm to anybody, even someone who would shoot a child.

See the difference?

 

[SolomonVII]

My community is addressing those issues...like I've stated before. It doesn't have to be one or the other, we can both address the root causes, and work on making guns less accessible to kids. It's even possible to care about other dangers to children at the same time, like pools and cars, and work to minimize the risk caused by them.

What are those issues?

 

[tadoflamb]

Speaking of evidence, a quick search shows guns are the most common, followed by overdosing on prescription drugs ...I don't see the evidence that suffocation is number one.

Personally, I'm finding the attempt to minimize gun suicides by pointing to other methods pathetic.

It's like minimizing the abuse in our own Church by saying, 'but protestants molest children too!'

 

[tadoflamb]

When Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat, she was being a jerk too?

Well, she had enough courage she didn't need to show up on the bus with a posse of AR-15 packing jerks.

So, no, she wan't being a jerk.