Food for thought.

[Chriliman]

That answers exactly .... nothing.

I'll admit that I don't have all the answers, I only have the answers that I've been given after asking Him. If none of this makes sense to you then that's fine, I can't force you to make sense of anything.

 

[anonymous person]

But that means he freely created people that he already knew would never freely choose him.

You're right.

 

[Davian]

No and nobodies asking you to change your beliefs in the absence of new information.

In effect, that is exactly what you are asking me to do, and it would seem that your theology would hold me accountable for that decision (that I cannot consciously make).

I keep giving you new information for a reason.

Repeating your claims is not new information.

But it's not benefiting you so I see no reason to continue this conversation at this time. Thanks for your time

If you ever feel that you are up to addressing the question, let me know.

 

[Davian]

Simple answer is that God wants us to freely choose him and once we do we are rewarded beyond earthly measure.

The best answer science has for free will is that it's an illusion. They think our desires are determined by something else other than ourselves. That answer doesn't cut it for me. Something else is going on here.

How does it work for you? Can you freely decide to believe that you were abducted by aliens last night?

 

[Davian]

An omniscient and omnipotent God creates good and creates evil and presents the options for all created beings to freely choose. God knows those who choose good(Himself), God also knows those who only choose evil(not Himself). He rewards those who choose good and he punishes those who choose evil.

This is a simple concept to understand, but very difficult to believe.

Particularly the part about how that "God" poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old.

Obviously, not impossible to believe especially since it's supported by scripture, which consequently is God breathed. Makes perfect sense to me, why shouldn't I believe it?

Circular Reasoning Works Because Circular Reasoning Works

• Davian
• Jun 25, 2015

 

[Ana the Ist]

Because for those who don't choose God and love God, heaven will not be a place they'll want to go to. You currently don't care to go to heaven do you?

Well I don't believe in heaven, nothing about the concept of heaven makes any sense. I certainly don't want to lose my free will...part of my identity is in the choices I make. I would lose that identity in your idea of heaven.

So it's certainly not a matter of "wanting to be there"...heaven doesn't make any sense.

 

[anonymous person]

Particularly the part about how that "God" poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old.

Seems you would need to address this to someone who actually holds to such propositions. I don't. I would wager that Chriliman does not either.

 

[anonymous person]

Well I don't believe in heaven, nothing about the concept of heaven makes any sense. I certainly don't want to lose my free will...part of my identity is in the choices I make. I would lose that identity in your idea of heaven.

So it's certainly not a matter of "wanting to be there"...heaven doesn't make any sense.

Sure it does.

 

[Davian]

Seems you would need to address this to someone who actually holds to such propositions. I don't. I would wager that Chriliman does not either.

It seems that you are always ready to tell me what your god isn't. Why don't you take that paragraph - and you too, Criliman - and edit it to actually reflect your theology? Then we could compare and contrast what the two of you believe.

No cheating by comparing notes via pm.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

God created all beings with free will to choose Him or not. If a created being never chooses to personally know God, how can God ever personally know them? All God knows is that they exist and are defying Him and thus must be punished for only wanting evil. Yes, God creates good and creates evil, but the reason he does this is to maintain free will in His created beings to freely choose Him(good) or not(evil).

But he created them knowing that they would never choose him and "must be punished." How is that different to creating them for punishment?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You're right.

So how is that different to creating them for damnation?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Sure it does.

It makes sense to you? I'll just rattle off some of the things that don't make any sense and you can explain them for me....

1. Sin. I enjoy a lot of things considered sinful, as do most people. There's no sin in heaven though. So does that mean I'll no longer enjoy doing those things...like god is going to change who I am as a person? Or does it mean I'll still enjoy doing those things, but I won't be allowed to (which doesn't exactly sound so good). Or...does it mean I'll be able to do those things, but they aren't considered sinful anymore (this option actually makes the most sense).

2. How am I supposed to enjoy heaven knowing that I have loved ones in hell? That's something that will be bothering me all the time. Does god just make you forget about your loved ones? That's the only solution I can imagine...and it sounds awful. I don't ever want to forget about those I love...especially if the reason is just so that I can enjoy eternity with the guy who put them in hell.

3. It sounds really really boring. I can't imagine what I would be doing for an eternity that doesn't sound like it would get old after a few decades. Part of what makes life so great is all the different experiences to be had...that the world is constantly changing and new ideas and new technologies are being created. What possible use would I have for any technology in heaven? Do I need an Iphone to talk to someone? Is there a heaven version of Japan that I can go to for a vacation? Part of what makes life interesting is the inevitable conflicts, the drama, the difficulties...but I'm guessing these don't exist in heaven either since they're usually tied to sin in one way or another. It's not that I don't enjoy feeling love, or contentment, or bliss...but do these feelings really mean anything without any struggle to achieve them? Boredom and emptiness would seem to be inevitable results of having all wants and needs taken care of all the time...unless god changes you to something inhuman. No matter how hard I try to imagine the thing god would change you into being better than being human...I always imagine it as something less than human. Something rather pathetic.

These, of course, are just three of the conceptual problems I have with heaven. When you think about it, hell is a much more plausible place to exist than heaven is. I'd love to hear what answers you have for these three problems...I'll refrain from listing any more until you respond to these.

 

[Chriliman]

So how is that different to creating them for damnation?

This is where it's critical to recognize if you're assuming this God exists or assuming he does not exist.

If you're assuming he exists then you must realize that in your current state of being you can't understand everything about God unless you believe he can provide understanding.

If you're assuming he does not exist then you're trying to point out how we can't completely make sense of how God works and we already admit this because we know we're not God.

God created with the intention of eternal life, he can't control the fact that some don't want it because they would rather have eternal death.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

God created with the intention of eternal life, he can't control the fact that some don't want it because they would rather have eternal death.

Actually, he can. Based on what you've said, he need not create anyone who he knows "would rather have eternal death." He could have created only those who he knew would align with his "intention of eternal life."

 

[Chriliman]

It seems that you are always ready to tell me what your god isn't. Why don't you take that paragraph - and you too, Criliman - and edit it to actually reflect your theology? Then we could compare and contrast what the two of you believe.

No cheating by comparing notes via pm.

It seems you never agree to accept a truth about origins of life. As soon as you accept a truth like for example: "I believe in evolution, I believe life originated from a blob of life giving primordial sludge" or something like that.

If you have a claim that you want to compare and contrast to my claim then I'm glad to do it.

 

[Chriliman]

Actually, he can.

You're saying this as if you know this for a fact, which would mean you're admitting God exists and you know what He's capable of and not capable of. This seems like a problem for you.

Based on what you've said, he need not create anyone who he knows "would rather have eternal death." He could have created only those who he knew would align with his "intention of eternal life."

But we've determined above that you've admitted God exists and now finite little you want to define what God can and cannot do. Interesting...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You're saying this as if you know this for a fact, which would mean you're admitting God exists and you know what He's capable of and not capable of. This seems like a problem for you.

But we've determined above that you've admitted God exists and now finite little you want to define what God can and cannot do. Interesting...

No, we're examining your claims about God and what he is capable of doing. You do understand that, right?

 

[anonymous person]

It seems that you are always ready to tell me what your god isn't.

Yes sir I am. Always ready.

...be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.....

Why don't you take that paragraph - and you too, Criliman - and edit it to actually reflect your theology? Then we could compare and contrast what the two of you believe.

No cheating by comparing notes via pm.

Thanks for the invitation, but I will pass.

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Thanks for the invitation, but I will pass.

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

That advice might be useful to someone who has pearls to cast.

 

[Chriliman]

It makes sense to you? I'll just rattle off some of the things that don't make any sense and you can explain them for me....

1. Sin. I enjoy a lot of things considered sinful, as do most people. There's no sin in heaven though. So does that mean I'll no longer enjoy doing those things...like god is going to change who I am as a person? Or does it mean I'll still enjoy doing those things, but I won't be allowed to (which doesn't exactly sound so good). Or...does it mean I'll be able to do those things, but they aren't considered sinful anymore (this option actually makes the most sense).

2. How am I supposed to enjoy heaven knowing that I have loved ones in hell? That's something that will be bothering me all the time. Does god just make you forget about your loved ones? That's the only solution I can imagine...and it sounds awful. I don't ever want to forget about those I love...especially if the reason is just so that I can enjoy eternity with the guy who put them in hell.

3. It sounds really really boring. I can't imagine what I would be doing for an eternity that doesn't sound like it would get old after a few decades. Part of what makes life so great is all the different experiences to be had...that the world is constantly changing and new ideas and new technologies are being created. What possible use would I have for any technology in heaven? Do I need an Iphone to talk to someone? Is there a heaven version of Japan that I can go to for a vacation? Part of what makes life interesting is the inevitable conflicts, the drama, the difficulties...but I'm guessing these don't exist in heaven either since they're usually tied to sin in one way or another. It's not that I don't enjoy feeling love, or contentment, or bliss...but do these feelings really mean anything without any struggle to achieve them? Boredom and emptiness would seem to be inevitable results of having all wants and needs taken care of all the time...unless god changes you to something inhuman. No matter how hard I try to imagine the thing god would change you into being better than being human...I always imagine it as something less than human. Something rather pathetic.

These, of course, are just three of the conceptual problems I have with heaven. When you think about it, hell is a much more plausible place to exist than heaven is. I'd love to hear what answers you have for these three problems...I'll refrain from listing any more until you respond to these.

Interesting thoughts. I'll just say what I believe to be true in the most simple way possible. Before I became a true follower of Jesus, I was dead. I was literally a walking dead person. Only after I became a true Christian did I begin to realize the wonders of God's creation. God did change me, he changed me from being dead to being alive. When my physical body dies, my spirit will be freed from the bondage of this physically dead world and transfigured into a spiritual being with a new body. Along with this new body will come a new heaven and a new earth. When this happens I will experience life in the way God truly intended, which is obviously unimaginably glorious to us now in this physically dead earth and heaven. I don't belong in this world, but I'm driven by a power that's beyond me to express this good news to all who will listen. This is what I truly believe.