Food for thought.

[ToddNotTodd]

I don't believe God created certain people to never murder. I believe God created these people and put the option of good and bad before them so that they can freely choose. Sure God knew some would never murder, but he did not control their free will to choose to not murder.

I didn't say that a god controlled their actions. I said the opposite. You believe that your god created this universe, correct? And your god created mankind with brains that make decisions?

And you said:

"If you're assuming a God exists and creates the options to murder and not to murder, then correct, this God did not affect your free will to refrain from choosing a certain option."

So you have to believe that your god created a world in which at least some people use their free will and their brains to decide not to murder people.

And since some people choose not to murder and retain their free will, there's no reason to think that your god couldn't have created a world where no one chooses to murder and retain their free will. Anyone who would have murdered wouldn't exist.

 

[Chriliman]

I didn't say that a god controlled their actions. I said the opposite. You believe that your god created this universe, correct? And your god created mankind with brains that make decisions?

And you said:

"If you're assuming a God exists and creates the options to murder and not to murder, then correct, this God did not affect your free will to refrain from choosing a certain option."

So you have to believe that your god created a world in which at least some people use their free will and their brains to decide not to murder people.

And since some people choose not to murder and retain their free will, there's no reason to think that your god couldn't have created a world where no one chooses to murder and retain their free will. Anyone who would have murdered wouldn't exist.

I can only conclude that it's very difficult for you to believe a God does exist who puts the options of good and bad before the created and all created human beings have chosen bad over good.

 

[Davian]

No idea.

I could have guessed that.

Good seeing you too, grouchface.

lol. Did you miss me?

 

[Chriliman]

You would then agree that what you believe is not under your conscious control? You are unable to simply will yourself to believe something?

I'm admitting that I'm a finite being who does not know everything and I must accept something as true in order to remain rational. If I reject all significant truth claims(whether evidenced or not) all the time then logically I'll miss the truth or be satisfied with not knowing the truth (which I'm not and have never been satisfied with not knowing the truth). This is a desire for truth that some have and some do not. (I'm not saying you don't have a desire for truth)

 

[Davian]

How else are they chosen?

Not deliberately.

However, if you feel that beliefs can be deliberately chosen, you should be able to demonstrate that to yourself. Choose to believe that you were abducted by aliens last night. Can you do it?

 

[HitchSlap]

I'm admitting that I'm a finite being who does not know everything and I must accept something as true in order to remain rational. If I reject all significant truth claims(whether evidenced or not) all the time then logically I'll miss the truth or be satisfied with not knowing the truth (which I'm not and have never been satisfied with not knowing the truth). This is a desire for truth that some have and some do not. (I'm not saying you don't have a desire for truth)

This is a terrible way to evaluate reality.

 

[Chriliman]

This is a terrible way to evaluate reality.

Great way to not address anything I said. Are you saying you're not finite and that you do know everything?

Or are you saying you are finite and that you don't know everything, meaning you must admit that if there is a truth to be known, you could possibly know it in the future?

If you see that as true then you must accept that statement as true (believe it)

If you don't accept that statement as true, then how do you rationally function?

 

[Davian]

I'm admitting that I'm a finite being who does not know everything and I must accept something as true in order to remain rational. If I reject all significant truth claims(whether evidenced or not) all the time then logically I'll miss the truth or be satisfied with not knowing the truth (which I'm not and have never been satisfied with not knowing the truth). This is a desire for truth that some have and some do not. (I'm not saying you don't have a desire for truth)

Okay, but what about my question? Do agree that what you believe is not under your conscious control?

 

[Chriliman]

Okay, but what about my question? Do agree that what you believe is not under your conscious control?

No, I don't agree with that because I can consciously control what I choose to accept as true. My criteria for choosing to accept something as true is if it makes sense regardless of what the evidence points to. If the evidence supports what makes sense then fantastic, still doesn't necessarily mean it's true. If the evidence points to something that doesn't make sense then I'd better question the evidence and try to make sense of it, if I can't make sense of it then I must admit I don't know, but admitting I don't know does not mean I should give up trying to make sense of something. All of this questioning is under my conscious control, it's literally what we're designed to do. Question things and find the truth.

 

[HitchSlap]

Great way to not address anything I said. Are you saying you're not finite and that you do know everything?

Or are you saying you are finite and that you don't know everything, meaning you must admit that if there is a truth to be known, you could possibly know it in the future?

If you see that as true then you must accept that statement as true (believe it)

If you don't accept that statement as true, then how do you rationally function?

More gobbledygook.

Reality exists.
We can learn about reality.
Falsifiable models with predictive capabilities are the best way to learn about reality.

 

[Chriliman]

More gobbledygook.

Reality exists.
We can learn about reality.
Falsifiable models with predictive capabilities are the best way to learn about reality.

Close, I'd change one thing to make it more true:

Reality exists.
We can learn about reality.
Falsifiable models with predictive capabilities is one way of an infinite amount of ways to learn about reality.

 

[HitchSlap]

Close, I'd change one thing:

Reality exists.
We can learn about reality.
Falsifiable models with predictive capabilities is one way of an infinite amount of ways to learn about reality.

Wrong!

Everything we have ever learned about reality has been through the scientific method.

 

[Chriliman]

Wrong!

Everything we have ever learned about reality has been through the scientific method.

Really? When was the scientific method devised? Did the ancients learn about the stars and create constellations with the scientific method? Did our ancestors learn how to make tools with the scientific method?

It seems the scientific method is a recent human creation and anything created by humans is fallible. Even as fallible as one individual human. Humans have a large collection of knowledge, but this knowledge is still limited to the knowledge of any one individual.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I can only conclude that it's very difficult for you to believe a God does exist who puts the options of good and bad before the created and all created human beings have chosen bad over good.

And I can only conclude that your dodging of the actual argument is due to cognitive dissonance. You realize that my argument is sound, but since it conflicts with your worldview, you can't accept it.

 

[HitchSlap]

Really?

Yes.

When was the scientific method devised?

When humans realized saber-toothed tigers didn't make good pets.

Did the ancients learn about the stars and create constellations with the scientific method?

Of course.

Did our ancestors learn how to make tools with the scientific method?

Of course. Trial and error.

It seems the scientific method is a recent human creation and anything created by humans is fallible.

Nonsense. Pick up a book and educate yourself.

Even as fallible as one individual human.

Non sequitur.

Humans have a large collection of knowledge, but this knowledge is still limited to the knowledge of any one individual.

Incorrect. Human knowledge grows exponentially.

We're standing on the shoulders of giants."

 

[Chriliman]

Yes.



When humans realized saber-toothed tigers didn't make good pets.




Of course.



Of course. Trial and error.



Nonsense. Pick up a book and educate yourself.




Non sequitur.




Incorrect. Human knowledge grows exponentially.

We're standing on the shoulders of giants."

Go ahead and stand on a fallible giant. I'll stand on an infallible giant.

It was nice discussing with everyone, thanks for your time. God bless!

 

[HitchSlap]

Go ahead and stand on a fallible giant.

It's the only giant we have.

I'll stand on an infallible giant.

You'll soon take a fall.

It was nice discussing with everyone, thanks for your time. God bless!

Take care.

 

[Davian]

No, I don't agree with that because I can consciously control what I choose to accept as true. My criteria <snip>

What is this talk of criteria? Don't be moving the goalposts on me. You can either consciously control what you believe or you cannot. Which is it?

 

[Received]

A good question. If the atheists intentions are pure then he is doing what is required by Gods law without having Gods law.

In this case we're back at square one: should we (atheist or theist, Christian or otherwise) prevent evil in every situation we experience it?

 

[Chriliman]

In this case we're back at square one: should we (atheist or theist, Christian or otherwise) prevent evil in every situation we experience it?

As a Christian, when I perceive evil I would hope the Holy Spirit would prompt me on what to do. I can't speak for atheists or theists on how they would handle a situation of apparent evil, some may do nothing and think someone else will do something.