Food for thought.

[Freodin]

all i know for a fact is that God exists and that God communicates concepts to me that i know are not from my own mind . as to the details of God and the universe i am not all knowing and doubt if i ever will be i am satisfied with not knowing i am simply satisfied and happy with the things God does reveal to me . Human beings do not like mysteries we want to figure everything out and we are naturally curious beings and God for the most part is a mystery .I guess you can say i am an agnostic believer as agnosticism is the belief that absolute knowledge is unattainable . where do you fall in the spectrum of belief what is your world view?

Agnostic, in the same way that you explained it here. Atheist, because I don't believe in all the concepts of deities I have ever been confronted with. I keep my claims to "knowledge" about such topics on a absolute minimun... no more than is needed to counter certain arguments.

Like here, for example.

You say that "you know for a fact that God exists" and "communicates concepts" to you. That is a claim of absolute knowledge (not complete knowledge, but absolute knowledge). Which you later claim to think is unattainable.

So perhaps there is a chance that God doesn't exist, and what you think "God" communicates to you is indeed from your own mind. (I have never met any theist who expressed concepts that could not have come from their own minds. The human mind is astounding! )
Then you could make the claim, "I very strongly believe, based on all my experiences and reasonings, that God... etc."
That would be what I would expect from an agnostic. But somehow you didn't.

Have you ever considered why?

 

[anonymous person]

I am serious. It seems that your theology holds one accountable for what one believes, with you referring to it as a choice (#336). This is a thought experiment. Can you believe that you were abducted by alines last night? Can you not choose to do so? Or are beliefs not a choice?

Oh I see what you're driving at. You're trying to argue that you can't believe something for which you think you have no good reason to believe kinda how I would not believe in aliens unless I had a good reason. To this I would direct you to read Romans chapter 1. Or better yet, read the expository piece I wrote here,

www.christianforums.com/threads/your-philosophical-world-view-and-your-life.7910047/page-3

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Oh I see what you're driving at. You're trying to argue that you can't believe something for which you think you have no good reason to believe kinda how I would not believe in aliens unless I had a good reason. To this I would direct you to read Romans chapter 1. Or better yet, read the expository piece I wrote here,

www.christianforums.com/threads/your-philosophical-world-view-and-your-life.7910047/page-3

No, he is poking at your assumption that beliefs can be deliberately chosen.

 

[quatona]

If an eternal foundational God creates evil for an eternally good purpose, which is to maintain free will in the created beings so they can freely choose to follow him or not, what argument do you have other than "I don't believe in that God"?

1. I would first like to learn based on which conceptual construct it is assumed that this "higher purpose" couldn´t be achieved in other ways - especially in view of the fact that this God is allegedly omnipotent. (Which doesn´t necessarily come down to not believing in this God, but in scrutinizing the coherence of your statements about this God.)
2. Of course, I would also like to learn what this "eternally good purpose" is or might possibly be, instead of swallowing the blanket assertion that there is. (In fact, the result may be that I don´t believe your assertion that there is such an "eternally good purpose", which isn´t quite the same as not beiieving there´s a God.
3. If, as it appears to be, your assertion is that the "eternally higher purpose" in giving his creatures "free will" is to let them have "free will", I would point out the circularity in that argument.
4. I would repeat my question "Is there free will in heaven?"

 

[anonymous person]

No, he is poking at your assumption that beliefs can be deliberately chosen.

How else are they chosen?

 

[Chriliman]

So if an atheist stops child abuse, Jesus is working through him?

A good question. If the atheists intentions are pure then he is doing what is required by Gods law without having Gods law.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

How else are they chosen?

They're not.

 

[Chriliman]

1. I would first like to learn based on which conceptual construct it is assumed that this "higher purpose" couldn´t be achieved in other ways - especially in view of the fact that this God is allegedly omnipotent. (Which doesn´t necessarily come down to not believing in this God, but in scrutinizing the coherence of your statements about this God.)

The conceptual construct is that God is the eternal foundation of all existence, He alone is the reason behind everything. What we created beings view as good and evil is not viewed in the same way by God because He is omniscient. He knows the reason behind the good and evil that he allows and it's two fold reasoning. On one hand He allows good and evil to be chosen by His created beings(God can't choose between good and evil because He is good in of itself.) and on the other hand He allows good and evil in order to accomplish His perfectly good will.

The "higher purpose" could not be achieved in any other way as Jesus clearly illustrates here.

Luke 22:42
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

and again

Matt. 26:42
"My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done"

Clearly if there were any other way, God would have granted it to His only begotten Son, but even the prayer of Jesus was answered with a "No, this is the only way".

2. Of course, I would also like to learn what this "eternally good purpose" is or might possibly be, instead of swallowing the blanket assertion that there is. (In fact, the result may be that I don´t believe your assertion that there is such an "eternally good purpose", which isn´t quite the same as not beiieving there´s a God.

Lets say God does exist. Wouldn't it make sense that He could create beings that only have a choice to do good. Evil would not exist in this creation, right? If this God exists wouldn't you be happy to do His will because you see nothing bad in His will? Here is the problem though, you can imagine such a God and therefore are capable of choosing this God's will. But if this God exists, then you would have no choice to not do God's will.

It's the process of choosing God that allows us to understand the nature of God as being perfectly good and also His nature is to cast out evil and cast out lies.

3. If, as it appears to be, your assertion is that the "eternally higher purpose" in giving his creatures "free will" is to let them have "free will", I would point out the circularity in that argument.

Yes, He allows us to have free will so that we freely choose Him. Freely choosing Him, means we've chosen to be identified with His perfect plan and His perfect plan is to destroy evil within us that we cannot destroy on our own.

4. I would repeat my question "Is there free will in heaven?"

Since this God has free will to do as He pleases, then yes. If God freely chooses to only do what is good for those that accept His perfect plan, then how can those who've accepted Him ever suffer? God Himself creates suffering for the purpose of allowing His creation to choose Him or not? In heaven there can't be suffering because only those who've chosen to deny themselves and follow God exist there.

 

[anonymous person]

They're not.

Explain please.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Lets say God does exist. Wouldn't it make sense that He could create beings that only have a choice to do good. Evil would not exist in this creation, right? If this God exists wouldn't you be happy to do His will because you see nothing bad in His will? Here is the problem though, you can imagine such a God and therefore are capable of choosing this God's will. But if this God exists, then you would have no choice to not do God's will.

Demonstrably false. Free-willed people can have a choice to do a thing but never do that thing.

 

[Chriliman]

Demonstrably false. Free-willed people can have a choice to do a thing but never do that thing.

How can that be demonstrably false by a finite free willed being who is incapable of knowing whether or not another free willed being had a choice to do a thing but never did that thing? IOW, how can you know that free-willed people can have a choice to do a thing but never do that thing? The term "never" being the key to understanding that you can't know this and therefore can't demonstrate it to be either true or false.

 

[asherahSamaria]

The conceptual construct is that God is the eternal foundation of all existence, He alone is the reason behind everything. What we created beings view as good and evil is not viewed in the same way by God because He is omniscient. He knows the reason behind the good and evil that he allows and it's two fold reasoning. On one hand He allows good and evil to be chosen by His created beings(God can't choose between good and evil because He is good in of itself.) and on the other hand He allows good and evil in order to accomplish His perfectly good will.

The "higher purpose" could not be achieved in any other way as Jesus clearly illustrates here.

Luke 22:42
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

and again

Matt. 26:42
"My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done"

Clearly if there were any other way, God would have granted it to His only begotten Son, but even the prayer of Jesus was answered with a "No, this is the only way".



Lets say God does exist. Wouldn't it make sense that He could create beings that only have a choice to do good. Evil would not exist in this creation, right? If this God exists wouldn't you be happy to do His will because you see nothing bad in His will? Here is the problem though, you can imagine such a God and therefore are capable of choosing this God's will. But if this God exists, then you would have no choice to not do God's will.

It's the process of choosing God that allows us to understand the nature of God as being perfectly good and also His nature is to cast out evil and cast out lies.



Yes, He allows us to have free will so that we freely choose Him. Freely choosing Him, means we've chosen to be identified with His perfect plan and His perfect plan is to destroy evil within us that we cannot destroy on our own.



Since this God has free will to do as He pleases, then yes. If God freely chooses to only do what is good for those that accept His perfect plan, then how can those who've accepted Him ever suffer? God Himself creates suffering for the purpose of allowing His creation to choose Him or not? In heaven there can't be suffering because only those who've chosen to deny themselves and follow God exist there.

"Since this God has free will to do as He pleases"

How exactly can a purported omniscient being have free will?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

How can that be demonstrably false by a finite free willed being who is incapable of knowing whether or not another free willed being had a choice to do a thing but never did that thing? IOW, how can you know that free-willed people can have a choice to do a thing but never do that thing? The term "never" being the key to understanding that you can't know this and therefore can't demonstrate it to be either true or false.

Simple, there have been countless people that have lived and died and never murdered anyone. They of course would have had opportunities to murder someone. Each one of those individuals had the free-willed choices A (to murder) and B (not to murder). They lived their entire lives with the ability to chose A. but they never did.

Ergo, free will isn't impacted if we refrain from choosing a certain option. Because we do it already, and I'm pretty sure you're going to say we have free will.

 

[Chriliman]

Simple, there have been countless people that have lived and died and never murdered anyone. They of course would have had opportunities to murder someone. Each one of those individuals had the free-willed choices A (to murder) and B (not to murder). They lived their entire lives with the ability to chose A. but they never did.

It depends highly on what you're assuming to be true (You yourself are using your free will to make assumptions)
Are you assuming a God exists and creates these options for a created being to choose or are you assuming God does not exist at all this case?

Ergo, free will isn't impacted if we refrain from choosing a certain option. Because we do it already, and I'm pretty sure you're going to say we have free will.

Again, depends on the assumptions you're making to begin with. If you're assuming a God exists and creates the options to murder and not to murder, then correct, this God did not affect your free will to refrain from choosing a certain option.

If you're assuming a God does not exist at all, then why do we have the perception of free will? The obvious answer must be that free will is an illusion, but is this the truth, who knows?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

It depends highly on what you're assuming to be true (You yourself are using your free will to make assumptions)

Are you assuming a God exists and creates these options for a created being to choose or are you assuming God does not exist at all this case?

Again, depends on the assumptions you're making to begin with. If you're assuming a God exists and creates the options to murder and not to murder, then correct, this God did not affect your free will to refrain from choosing a certain option.

It doesn't matter what I assume. If you assume a god exists, then you've just admitted that we have god-given free will, and that we retain this free will even if we never choose a particular option from a list of options.

Which means that this god could have created everyone with the same inclination never to murder during their lifetimes like you believe your god created the people that didn't murder.

 

[Chriliman]

"Since this God has free will to do as He pleases"

How exactly can a purported omniscient being have free will?

It depends if you view this being as being inherently good or inherently bad. I view Him as being the eternal foundation of existence, therefore, all goodness is because of Him. This means it's good that I exist, but I have a finite free will which cannot be the same as God's infinite free will. In this disconnect between our wills is where the option for evil is created because God created me to have my own finite free will to do as I please.

Another way to think about it is that God has a will, but He only wants what is good. If a created being only wants what is bad, then God wants to destroy their will because it would be good to destroy a will that only wants what is bad. But to do this and not affect free will, God creates the option for the created being to choose good or bad and if the created being continues choosing bad then God continues destroying their will even for eternity because God is eternally good and only wants what is good. It pleases God to do this because the end result of bad will being eternally destroyed is God's perfect plan being fulfilled.

In the same sense, if a created being wants what is good then God will grant it because He wants the same thing. It also pleases God to do this because the end result of a created being choosing His will is God's perfect plan being fulfilled.

 

[Chriliman]

It doesn't matter what I assume. If you assume a god exists, then you've just admitted that we have god-given free will, and that we retain this free will even if we never choose a particular option from a list of options.

So then it does matter what you assume because if you assume God exists and admit we have God-given free will, then not choosing to follow God's will means your choosing to not follow God's will, which means you can expect to suffer because of that choice, until you choose to follow God's good will.

Which means that this god could have created everyone with the same inclination never to murder during their lifetimes like you believe your god created the people that didn't murder.

The simple truth is that this is not reality. A god that created us with the same inclination never to murder during our lifetimes clearly does not exist because if it did then there would be no murder. It's either God created us and puts the option of good and bad before us so that we can choose -or- god does not exist at all and our free will is an illusion.

 

[Davian]

What theological fault are you referencing?

And don't forget about this post.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

The simple truth is that this is not reality. A god that created us with the same inclination never to murder during our lifetimes clearly does not exist because if it did then there would be no murder.

But you believe it's true that your god created most people to never murder during their lifetimes. And if an omnipotent god can create most people to never murder, then that god could have created a world in which everyone chooses never to murder. Which would be a better world than we have now.

 

[Chriliman]

But you believe it's true that your god created most people to never murder during their lifetimes. And if an omnipotent god can create most people to never murder, then that god could have created a world in which everyone chooses never to murder. Which would be a better world than we have now.

I don't believe God created certain people to never murder. I believe God created these people and put the option of good and bad before them so that they can freely choose. Sure God knew some would never murder, but he did not control their free will to choose to not murder. He knows because he's omniscient not because he controls free will. It's in God's good will to not control free will. His omnipotence is limited to his infinite good will. Meaning he can only do what is good. It's good that we exist with free will to do as we please, but our free will is finite and will come to an end when we die. So your choices are important.